[NT] Observational Differences Between the ENTJ and the INTJ

[rav3n]

And 95% of that emotion is anger

Ha ha!

Regardless of emotion, it does tend to manifest with strength.

 

[Kierva]

Ha ha!

Regardless of emotion, it does tend to manifest with strength.

I wonder what that other 5% is though. Maybe my numbers were skewed.

 

[rav3n]

I wonder what that other 5% is though. Maybe my numbers were skewed.

Difficult to say what you're experiencing with the 5% but unhappy times do go away, once you get to a place of independence. Then, the 95% can be positive emotions manifesting part of the time or a relative calm, most of the time.

Disclaimer: Impatience is nigh impossible to lose, although some of the observable rough edges will smooth out a bit with time.

 

[INTPness]

Disclaimer: Impatience is nigh impossible to lose, although some of the observable rough edges will smooth out a bit with time.

Yeah, sure they will. Just kidding. I have actually seen this in action with ENTJ's. A couple of them that I know, as they've gotten older, have sort of stopped voicing their frustration/anger. You can still see that they are perturbed but instead of voicing it, they choose to "keep the peace". Is it hard for ENTJ's to do this - to not say anything? And what if you had to do it constantly in a work environment or in a marriage, would it become depressing to shut down Te? I know it would be hard for me to abandon Ti for any length of time.

 

[mrcockburn]

Yeah, sure they will. Just kidding. I have actually seen this in action with ENTJ's. A couple of them that I know, as they've gotten older, have sort of stopped voicing their frustration/anger. You can still see that they are perturbed but instead of voicing it, they choose to "keep the peace". Is it hard for ENTJ's to do this - to not say anything? And what if you had to do it constantly in a work environment or in a marriage, would it become depressing to shut down Te? I know it would be hard for me to abandon Ti for any length of time.

lol. Losing your temper isn't Te, it's a lack of self-control.

 

[rav3n]

Yeah, sure they will. Just kidding. I have actually seen this in action with ENTJ's. A couple of them that I know, as they've gotten older, have sort of stopped voicing their frustration/anger. You can still see that they are perturbed but instead of voicing it, they choose to "keep the peace". Is it hard for ENTJ's to do this - to not say anything? And what if you had to do it constantly in a work environment or in a marriage, would it become depressing to shut down Te? I know it would be hard for me to abandon Ti for any length of time.

Note the word observable? It's there for a reason!

 

[INTPness]

lol. Losing your temper isn't Te, it's a lack of self-control.

Note the word observable? It's there for a reason!

OK, I obviously phrased my question wrong. Let me try again. If someone close to you who you interact a lot with (a spouse and/or co-worker, etc.) is constantly telling you that you're too critical, too bossy, too harsh, too blunt (or any number of other things that T-doms get criticized for) and you then choose to stop doing those things in a given situation to appease them or to cooperate with their request, does it make you feel cut off or stunted, like you can't be yourself?

I have an ESTJ family member who is sometimes told that he's too critical, too this, too that, too "T". So, he'll "behave nicely" for a time (according to the other people's request), but he sort of loses his personality when he does that. It's like his best asset has been taken away from him for a time.

 

[rav3n]

OK, I obviously phrased my question wrong. Let me try again. If someone close to you who you interact a lot with (a spouse and/or co-worker, etc.) is constantly telling you that you're too critical, too bossy, too harsh, too blunt (or any number of other things that T-doms get criticized for) and you then choose to stop doing those things in a given situation to appease them or to cooperate with their request, does it make you feel cut off or stunted?

Depends on whether they have an objective point or it's the point on the top of their heads. If it's the former, action isn't necessary so Te will back off. If it's the latter, I wouldn't bother trying to appease them.

 

[Kierva]

Yeah, sure they will. Just kidding. I have actually seen this in action with ENTJ's. A couple of them that I know, as they've gotten older, have sort of stopped voicing their frustration/anger. You can still see that they are perturbed but instead of voicing it, they choose to "keep the peace". Is it hard for ENTJ's to do this - to not say anything?

Eh, that would apply to average level ENTJ 8s. This would differ from say, an ENTJ 3 - they do it tactfully if they're frustrated. That being said they way that they express their anger isn't mentioned here so it's hard to gauge -- but the first thing that comes to mind is an ENTJ 8.

And what if you had to do it constantly in a work environment or in a marriage, would it become depressing to shut down Te? I know it would be hard for me to abandon Ti for any length of time.

Of course it will be depressing! Sitting around doing nothing productive is a good way to kill off a Te-dom.

 

[Kierva]

Depends on whether they have an objective point or it's the point on the top of their heads. If it's the former, action isn't necessary so Te will back off. If it's the latter, I wouldn't bother trying to appease them.

^^^^ thisssss

 

[Amargith]

I've found the difference in the two species to be in the initiative. ENTJs tend to take the initiative and feel less comfortable if someone approaches them than the other way around. INTJs prefer to assess the situation first and respond to what they're given, or only initiate if they have to/have completed their prep.

 

[Nicodemus]

I've found the difference in the two species to be in the initiative. ENTJs tend to take the initiative and feel less comfortable if someone approaches them than the other way around. INTJs prefer to assess the situation first and respond to what they're given, or only initiate if they have to/have completed their prep.

[The same put into seemingly meaningful function terms.] Yes.

 

[Coriolis]

My ENTJ friend is much more outgoing than I am. She lives in the city, and makes a point of getting out and speaking with her neighbors, even leaves water and biscuits out for dogs on walks. She knows far more people than I do this way, and is always making and working these connections, almost like a politician though she has no ambitions in that direction.

She is also a stylish and sometimes even flashy dresser, wearing bright colors and interesting jewelry, in contrast with the utilitarian black many of us INTJs get by with.

 

[ziltoid]

I would say that ENTJs are actually more similar to INTPs and INTJs share more in common with ENTPs. As someone who used to be an INTJ for much of adolescence and later evolved into an ENTJ, I can clearly distinguish between the two different ways of interacting with the world, both internally and externally. INTJ, like ENTPs, are primarily information gatherers, using Ni. In my experience, and I suspect this is true of all INTJs and even INFJs, Ni has a habit of filtering every action through potential pitfalls or possibilities. When I was an INTJ I was incredibly guarded around people I didn't know and I had a habit of never really doing much of anything without learning enough about it and then making a decision. Yet as an ENTJ it's the opposite, action is first, where timeliness and efficiency is more important than accuracy.

Both types view the world in very different ways. ENTJs are generally more realistic about what can be accomplished where INTJs are more thorough and careful to make even the most minute errors. This sounds pretty abstract but that's what I've observed about myself and other INTJ/ENTJs I know.

 

[mrcockburn]

As someone who used to be an INTJ for much of adolescence and later evolved into an ENTJ.

You're still INTJ. You can't change types. You probably just got more confidence.

 

[ziltoid]

Unfortunately that's very wrong. You can definitely change types, especially E vs. I. Choosing to use an extraverted function over an introverted one isn't even particularly spectacular, because all types use extroversion. It would be impossible for you to interact with the world in any meaningful way without extroversion, and similarly it would be difficult to process or make decisions about information you've collected in the external world, without an introverted function. Changing from I to E is merely using one function more; it becomes your primary function. This has happened to me, I'm living proof of it. Extroversion is so incredibly different this isn't something I could be wrong on.

It's funny you say I probably have "more confidence" in describing an ENTJ over an INTJ, because generally speaking, INTJs are probably the most confident of all types. Particularly with regards to what they know and what they don't know. INTJs obviously aren't more confident socially, so maybe that's what you were getting at?

I used to believe you couldn't change types myself, but I have way too much personal experience proving the opposite. I've also learned of several other examples where people changed types. It's a simple case of a person's environment changing their behavior. Granted someone has to want to change themselves to do it, but it can easily be done and I suspect most people go through it (particularly in childhood when a particular temperment is in the early stages of development).

I don't think it's limited to E vs. I either, you can choose to be more P or more J as well. I know this as a fact, you can literally train your mind to behave in one way or another. With enough persistence, it will be you if you really want it to be. The mind is incredibly powerful and even with the plethora of things that are already known about human behavior, we really don't know much.

 

[mrcockburn]

Unfortunately that's very wrong. You can definitely change types, especially E vs. I. Choosing to use an extraverted function over an introverted one isn't even particularly spectacular, because all types use extroversion. It would be impossible for you to interact with the world in any meaningful way without extroversion, and similarly it would be difficult to process or make decisions about information you've collected in the external world, without an introverted function. Changing from I to E is merely using one function more; it becomes your primary function. This has happened to me, I'm living proof of it. Extroversion is so incredibly different this isn't something I could be wrong on.

It's funny you say I probably have "more confidence" in describing an ENTJ over an INTJ, because generally speaking, INTJs are probably the most confident of all types. Particularly with regards to what they know and what they don't know. INTJs obviously aren't more confident socially, so maybe that's what you were getting at?

I used to believe you couldn't change types myself, but I have way too much personal experience proving the opposite. I've also learned of several other examples where people changed types. It's a simple case of a person's environment changing their behavior. Granted someone has to want to change themselves to do it, but it can easily be done and I suspect most people go through it (particularly in childhood when a particular temperment is in the early stages of development).

I don't think it's limited to E vs. I either, you can choose to be more P or more J as well. I know this as a fact, you can literally train your mind to behave in one way or another. With enough persistence, it will be you if you really want it to be. The mind is incredibly powerful and even with the plethora of things that are already known about human behavior, we really don't know much.

The thing with changing from J to P (or vice versa) is that you'd literally have to invert the functions.

INTP: Ti,Ne,Si,Fe
INTJ: Ni,Te,Fi,Se

Basically, you'd have to be reborn entirely. So, next lifetime at soonest.

 

[Coriolis]

Of the 4 MBTI dichotomies, E/I is the one that has the most evidence indicating it is hard-wired in our brains. This suggests that we are one or the other, and stay that way barring physical alteration of our brains. Yes, we can choose to act more one way or the other; or, we can move away from an environment that may have been pressuring us to act against what we really are. Both of these can look like an E/I change, but really are not.

Yes, we do use all functions, and can choose and learn to use less preferred ones at will, but that doesn't turn them into our preferred functions, any more than the ability to use one's left hand turns a righty into a lefty.

 

[rav3n]

Inferior and shadow functions are energy sinks. Fi, Ti, Ne, Fe are all varying degrees of draining for me. Si has been shut out.

As far as E/I as it pertains to ENTJs, we're task oriented. If our task doesn't require people or if our task isn't people, we're not obliged to be very social. More likely, ziltoid was an ENTJ all along but was shy or his/her Se hadn't manifested.

 

[ziltoid]

Do you guys think typology is biologically determined? I hope we're not derailing this too far but I would be interested in your theories if you have any.

I was always very aware of my own personal behavior and functions, particularly as my interest in MBTI and other areas of psychology piqued.

I can very vividly remember being an INTJ, it was as recently as 2 years ago. E vs. I is so obvious, it's not even something I'd begin to entertain as being "hard-wired". You're so wrong. In fact, I might even go so far as to argue that Extroversion/Introversion likely might be the most common behavioral changes people experience over the course of time. I have no real evidence to prove this but I strongly suspect it. I only have my own personal experiences to draw on, which might not be sufficient for many of you. All I could really tell you is: try it. Speaking purely in terms of E vs. I, as an INTJ I found myself very good at listening to other people and processing what they had to say before responding carefully, but concisely. However now, as an ENTJ I often find myself waiting to speak or speaking over people. There's no Ni, it has to be activated through sheer will.


And to fathom the possibility of inverting functions entirely? You should be more concerned with the order of the functions, rather than its direction (whether internal or external). The Ni that develops from a Te dominant is so very different than that of a primary Ni user. They look at all information in the world entirely differently. They may seem similar in the manner they speak, but they see information differently.

I'm not sure where Se comes in for an INTJ who was shy. It seems pretty much implied that introversion is inherently shy, at least to me. To say that the Se wasn't developed enough would be like talking about an ENTJ who didn't develop their Fi (in terms of functional distance, relative to your primary mode). It's interesting that you bring this up though, because it reminds me of something interesting I noticed in changing from I to E. I noticed for one, that all functions directed outwards seemed that much more powerful over introverted functions. Like an ENTJ can easily jump between Te and Se with relative ease as an INTJ could go from Ni to Fi. However, it seems using functions opposite your primary direction is takes more conscious effort.