[MBTI General] Help! ENTP with an ESTJ boss

[Sachetan]

Thank you all for your posts. I value your opinions a lot.

You've really captured the essence of the situation which seems pretty bad. I can sense the uneasiness of the other employees but there's also a sense of fear there, of losing one's job and because of all this huge change.

I've decided to reveal the wrongdoings of my boss and then negotiate myself out of the company. I don't think they'll sack him since he's friends with our new chief executive. I know my boss hates me around him, especially when I'm in a position to challenge him (which I haven't done, yet) and I might get a good deal just resigning.

I know, it's a position I've reached through hard work but I don't think things will change for better in a while. I'll go freelance or find another company with better values and respect for diversity.

 

[sculpting]

Depends on how evil this guy is.

My first estj boss was not evil just self centered and only concerned with getting glory. She is the worst scientists I have ever seen. But to get her to make progress I would present an idea to her which she would knock down. Then three days later I would approach her again with the same idea which she would again kno=ck down. Then three days later she would have a "great idea". no kidding.

My current boss is an estj but is much. much cleverer. She is extremely political and interacts with me very rarely given she has a game going on elsewhere. She is also smarter about management-all estjs should have to take a management course as they do things out of stupidity not malice much of the time.

 

[spirilis]

I'd like to add that male ESTJs are some of the worst people I've ever had to deal with, almost all of them I've encountered are unhealthy. So you aren't alone in this, I'm sure we all feel your pain. I swear there is a male INFJ for every healthy ESTJ out there.

I have a theory that this applies to both Te-dominant types, in that society generally rewards Te's manipulative behavior (with its ability to keep things in motion) in a way that rarely exposes the person to the kind of stressors that require someone to grow up. Lots of "looking the other way" due to the value Te types provide to an organization/institution/clique/whatever, and ignoring/accepting behaviors that might not be accepted (in an ongoing pattern) from other types.

 

[Sachetan]

I have a theory that this applies to both Te-dominant types, in that society generally rewards Te's manipulative behavior (with its ability to keep things in motion) in a way that rarely exposes the person to the kind of stressors that require someone to grow up. Lots of "looking the other way" due to the value Te types provide to an organization/institution/clique/whatever, and ignoring/accepting behaviors that might not be accepted (in an ongoing pattern) from other types.

I support your theory. The new CEO of my organization is also an ESTJ so there definitely is much of this "ignoring/accepting behavior" around.

I've changed my game plan. I'm planning to get my boss to help me get an equal position elsewhere in this organization - away from him. If he doesn't see the benefits I have my "knowledge" to speed up the process. As I guessed he's already started to question my position and doing extremely clever (subtle) job in that. He wants those near and dear to him close to him and they happen to be all males.

What do you think? Are ESTJs into games of this sort?

 

[CJ99]

Well the main ESTJ i know is my dad so its a slightly different situation i've had to deal with ESTJ-wise but i don't think they do play games. There not intuitive enough i think. i think its that this guy sees his way as being the most efficient because SJs are generally closed minded and he is just trying to be efficient - and falling clearly.

Heres my summary:

He a very stuck in his ways person who hates change from what he considers right and loves rules and authority but also loves efficiency.

You (if your a typical ENTP) are a creative, imaginative person who hates rules and authority and is great at "Using the rules to break the rules". Your also very efficient people when you want to be.

He is your superior isn't he? But clearly your high up enough to have alot of freedom so you could get away with by passing him in the pecking order.
Use your ENTP skills and beat him at his own game by getting in with the people above him (if you can) and cutting him out the lope as much as possible. Take your ideas to the guy above him.
You could also turn your collegues against him by pushing the boundries enough for you to look reasonable but for him to over react and set it up untill its in front of lots of other people.

 

[pecan111]

Well finally another entp female

fffffffffffffffffffffffff

 

[simulatedworld]

Quit.

Seriously, there's nothing you can do with these people. You must either bend a LOT further than he does or quit the job.

My favorite thing about ESTJs is their insistence on making mutual apologies impossible. If you apologize to most people, in earnest, by admitting your own mistake in a misunderstanding--well, most people are willing to admit some wrongdoing on their own parts too.

Not so with ESTJ! "I'm glad to see you've come to realize you were completely wrong and 100% of the problem from the start," they'll tell you. Kind of defeats the purpose of apologizing for mutual growth.

 

[Geoff]

Quit.

Seriously, there's nothing you can do with these people. You must either bend a LOT further than he does or quit the job.

My favorite thing about ESTJs is their insistence on making mutual apologies impossible. If you apologize to most people, in earnest, by admitting your own mistake in a misunderstanding--well, most people are willing to admit some wrongdoing on their own parts too.

Not so with ESTJ! "I'm glad to see you've come to realize you were completely wrong and 100% of the problem from the start," they'll tell you. Kind of defeats the purpose of apologizing for mutual growth.

It depends on the ESTJ. Two I know and worked with for years are much better at blaming the system - so they accept an apology easy - they are more concerned how to improve the process so it doesn't reoccur.

 

[simulatedworld]

It depends on the ESTJ. Two I know and worked with for years are much better at blaming the system - so they accept an apology easy - they are more concerned how to improve the process so it doesn't reoccur.

I usually get that attitude more from ENTJs, who are willing to ignore the standard rules and change around the process if they think they can make up a more efficient way to do it.

I wish I knew some healthy ESTJs.

 

[Cool]

Trust your ENTP intuition. USE the force. Just kidding, I know that you face more difficulty in you life. I had to fight against a INTJ male and I must say he wasn't stupid. But I say mess him up so bad if it cost you your job just hell no I want an ESTJ as a boss, my pride wouldn't allow that.

 

[chegra]

Well I have some ESTJ friends and a previous ESTJ boss.
For most SJ just do what they say. lol and record it; you need a paper trail
cause they might not want to take blame when things go wrong.

Or they say you misheard them.

Oddly, if you were going to get your subordinates to go against him, look for the ESTJ or ISTJ. Then look for the NF then go to NT.

For what every reason NT always seem to be the last on the bandwagon, but SJ will be the first if they think the person is being out of order or breaking social normals.

ESTJ turn that way when they are in power, it gets to their head. So, as your collegue they will be good to make friends with but not your boss.

(Something about ranking, an as NT we tend to see everybody being equal)

 

[chegra]

As a general rule ESTJ and even most ISTJ are easy to control.

Congitive Dissonance normally works well on them.


Also, you can use their competitive nature against them.

 

[thisGuy]

those opportunities you have had to challenge is ideas? use them...but be passive aggressive so he doesn't see you as a direct threat.

start with "That sounds like a good idea but..." and then end with..."We could still do that, but this way its so much easier...what should i do?"

"That would only work if X was not there. Since X is there, its probably not safe to go there...how bout bringing in A to minimize the X factor?"

also, its prolly a good idea to do this in public

 

[Synarch]

He is your superior isn't he? But clearly your high up enough to have alot of freedom so you could get away with by passing him in the pecking order.
Use your ENTP skills and beat him at his own game by getting in with the people above him (if you can) and cutting him out the lope as much as possible. Take your ideas to the guy above him.
You could also turn your collegues against him by pushing the boundries enough for you to look reasonable but for him to over react and set it up untill its in front of lots of other people.

This has worked with me in the past. It's a good practice anyway. Be friends with as many people and go as high as you can. Even if you're not strictly friends with the higher ups, people will think twice before fucking with you. Social isolation is death.

Congitive Dissonance normally works well on them.

Also, you can use their competitive nature against them.

ESTJ often feel stupid, so if you can explain things and confuse them they will usually retreat.

those opportunities you have had to challenge is ideas? use them...but be passive aggressive so he doesn't see you as a direct threat.

start with "That sounds like a good idea but..." and then end with..."We could still do that, but this way its so much easier...what should i do?"

"That would only work if X was not there. Since X is there, its probably not safe to go there...how bout bringing in A to minimize the X factor?"

also, its prolly a good idea to do this in public

Passive aggressive works with them, too. Too direct and you risk conflict with the corporate structure.

 

[Aleph-One]

I normally dislike passive-aggression, but if you have an ESTJ to destroy then malicious compliance is the quickest, most efficient way of doing that.

Me: This plan is going to have some very severe long-term consequences, we can't just focus on rampant, short-term...
Boss: [buzzwords, slogans]
Me: ...
Me: Hey, you're the boss!

Help the process fail. Watch the boss go down in flames. This is why, whenever I have a boss who loves me leave, I get a letter of recommendation from that boss in case I need to immolate the new one. New bosses are a crapshoot.

 

[Aleph-One]

For what every reason NT always seem to be the last on the bandwagon

They do seem to be the last on the bandwagon, but the NTs are the first ones to have their toes stepped on by a short-sighted despot. They seem to be the last on the bandwagon because bandwagons are highly visible to everyone, and they don't want to take the collective fall if the mob tactic fails. At least, that's what goes on in my head. I might agree with everyone who complains about management, but will never vocalize it for reasons of self-preservation. Instead, I usually start pulling some cloak and dagger shit right after the boss decides to ignore my objections and leave early so he can get a table at PF Chang's with the other career-building mercenaries for lunch.

 

[livinglife]

How did it all turn out?

Hi I'm an INTP female with an older ESTJ brother who seems to think he's my boss, so I have great sympathy with the OP. I've had major difficulty with my brother, and since we share (from different locales) the caretaking of a parent, our relationship such that it is, is an issue. Anyway, I found this thread quite helpful to my situation, and am hoping it helped the OP. I really hope you are working in a wonderful, creative environment where your work is appreciated and you feel personally and financially rewarded.

 

[ThinkingAboutIt]

I worked for a woman that started off the same way and I have determined that she was an ESTJ as well. She was jealous of my talent and where that would take me. But, I did handle it differently than you...I respected her position, found good qualities to focus on in her and acknowledged them as they were genuine. When she saw I was competent and didn't seek her position she stopped seeing me as a threat and I was given complete freedom to do what I wanted to do while everyone else was under her thumb for every little thing daily.

 

[Kristiana]

ESTJs at work should be banned.

 

[FC3S]

ENTP - The weakness of an ESTJ, they hate being annoyed. They hate disagreements. They are powerless to majority opinion. To be called an idiot will charge them. Don't bother using your debating skillz, they won't work. Insult them first - let them blow up - then tell them succinctly why they are wrong - you guys are good at this. You are their kryptonite.

You guys are hyenas, go in for the kill, make it swift and retreat. Your ESTJ overlord will rise from the dead. Lather, rinse, repeat. You will wear him down. Be warned, he will rise again for another day.

Good luck.