[ENTP] An angry ENTP

[Habba]

Hello there, dear rationales.

I made this thread to discuss a friend of mine, most likely an ENTP, and his habit of being very aggressive towards me.

So, how do I know he's an ENTP? Here's few points:

-He's always ready to argue. Just about anything... and with anyone.
-He's your "Devil's advocate" straight from the book. I mean, he's ready to confuse anyone around him just for good laughs. He's creating drama just to see how others would react.
-He has truly an unique train of thoughts. He can come up with incredibly unique ideas, but is having big troubles with very basic logics.
-Great improviser (especially verbally)
-Very, very arrogant.

Now, he's an ENTP alright?

The history, a short version: We have been friends 10+ years now (which is about half of my life). There have been times we weren't that close (only saw like once a month), and there have been times I've spent most of time with him. In general, I think of him as my close friend.

The problem: Lately we have been arguing a lot, and it has been very heated. And about every conversation we've had, it always ends up in shouting (lately I have force myself to remain calm, and cool-headed, but he's the same). It's intolerable, and I'm much happier with not having him around. But it's a long friendship... I can't discard a friend like that, at least not without trying to fix it.

My view of the problem: He is aggressive. Whatever he says or does, is coated with venomous poisons. When I asked him to stop being so passive-aggressive, he just says: "Oh, sorry... I forgot that I have to treat you with silken gloves and pillows, so that you wouldn't hurt yourself. Maybe I should even agree with your infallible logics, because you are so all-knowing."

And then he starts listing arguments in which he has proven himself being correct, and me showing my total lack of knowledge in the area in question.

Anyway, as you probably can see, I don't care much about the arguments. I HATE his way of arguing. He's only looking for a victory, as if it was a competition of wits and competence, rather than a mutual search for the truth. And when he's winning, he starts to "beat down" his adversary with insults (regarding his intelligence and views).

I think he's completely lacking empathy and is completely unable to see where I stand with my opinions.

Now, what he thinks of this issue: I think he might see me as an elitist (well, I am a bit of an elitist. ) who thinks he's infallible and greater than anyone else. He might be thinking that I avoid straight confrontation and arguments because I would be afraid of losing them and thus proving that I'm not that wise after all.

Anyways... It's a long rant. Hope you made it through here. I don't know if it was any good, since there's so much to tell, and I can only tell my side of the story. But any of you ENTPs had any similar troubles with ISTJs or other types? Or has anyone else had similar problems with ENTPs?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I understand the discomfort with letting go of someone that you have invested in for the past 10 years, but the way you tell it, there don't sound like many other options.

You might be able to appreciate his good qualities if you heavily limit your contact with him. That means you don't have to deal relentlessly with his behaviour, and as such, might be able to tolerate his flaws enough to extract what is of value in him.

However, it doesn't sound like close contact is affordable anymore. If you are really bothered by his attitude and behavior, it is reasonable that you don't want to put up with it. But he sounds like he can't be persuaded diplomatically. Being so dismissive of you, and sure of himself, means you likely won't be able to engage him seriously in his eyes. And supposing it's true that he doesn't understand logic, then you'll also just have a really hard time reasoning with him. Again, that means you can't persuade him.

So, if persuasion isn't an option, then letting go may be your only way of avoiding his crap. The question is whether or not it is better to keep him and put up with it, or get rid of him to avoid it. Which is better to you?

Also, I'm curious... Has he always been like this, and how does he treat other people?

 

[jenocyde]

Not sure if he's an ENTP, but he's certainly a douchebag.

I would never treat a friend that way, I don't patronize people. You can try to talk to him, or write him a letter, saying that how he speaks to you hurts you. If he responds in a bad way, cut him loose. If he's willing to work at it, make sure that you are too. In my experience, whenever people don't get along, it's usually equally both of their faults.

Good luck.

 

[jenocyde]

I had a friend like that, an ESTJ. I had to end it for peace of mind. Are you sure he's an ENTP?

 

[Habba]

Yeah, I'm afraid that he'll be unable to step back and apologize for his manners. He doesn't see his folly, and thus won't make any concessions, so it would have to be who'd yield. And I promised myself not to yield so much anymore.

Also, I'm curious... Has he always been like this, and how does he treat other people?

Yes, he has always little bit like that. But never to this extent. And before he couldn't stay angry more than a minute, after which he would say something hilarious and we would laugh at it all.

And I think he treats all the people little bit similarly, but of course, not to this extent. But other friends he has are not so analytical nor fact-respecting as I am, and thus aren't so often in arguments with him.

Cutting off the connection won't be a problem, in practice that is. We only see each other like once in a two weeks in football (as in soccer) matches (we play for the same team, and do to his very comparative nature, we end up arguing very lot about the matches). But I'm willing to leave the team too, if we can't get along.

 

[Habba]

I had a friend like that, an ESTJ. I had to end it for peace of mind. Are you sure he's an ENTP?

Not 100%. He once took a test saying he was an ENFP, but after we read about ENFP and ENTP, we came into conclusion that ENTP fits him much better.

However, he has some Se quantities, as he's so interested in being rich and having ultra high quality of life (limos, expensive suits, gold jewelry, etc...). So he might be an ESTP as well, but I have always seen him as an ENTP because of his wacky thoughts.

 

[jenocyde]

Wacky thoughts does not an ENTP make... Seriously, anyone can have "wacky" thoughts. ENTPs are pretty laid back. Yeah, we'll debate pretty much anything, but the rest of the description doesn't really fit.

It doesn't matter what type he is. If you feel bad in his presence, that's your answer right there - he's not good for you. Staying friends with someone, just because you've always been friends with that person, is not healthy and is not the basis of a good relationship.

Maybe he's going through a rough patch in his life and is taking it out on you? Maybe you should ask him... I know it must be difficult for you, but you shouldn't have to suffer in silence.

 

[matmos]

I had a very similar experience. ENTP count as some of my best friends - the passive/aggressive thing mixed with somewhat competitive exchanges I found typical.

The thought of losing a good friend is more traumatic than losing a girlfriend. They are longer and often deeper, spanning decades of shared experience - good times and the bad.

I'm told by my other half that I (unconsciously) engaged in such exchanges - factually correcting, supplying evidence, yada yada. I have no reason to doubt her in this.

The issue becomes clearer when one person is abusive, verbally or otherwise.

As MP nicely put it, he makes you feel like crap and I suspect you concluded that you don't enjoy his company anymore. Unless this is a temporary blip with his mood or stress - which are forgivable - you've answered the question yourself.

I suspect you have an asymetical relationship in which his (undoubted) alpha male skills confer some benefit to you? Ignore them - they are irrelevant. The ten years is also irrelevant. Don't put good time after bad time.

When disrespect and acrimony become normal it's time to blow the whistle.

I recommend you to speak, one last time, and draw a line in the sand with his sharp tongue. Set a clear limit. If he crosses the line he can't say he wasn't warned.

I been there; it's not easy. But it feels good when you finally realise you don't have to put up with trivial shit from people calling you friends. (You probably get enough shit without needing this joker adding to the pile.)

Take ownership of the situation - so far, you're not.

All the best.

 

[Shaula]

It seems that your friend is unwilling to change his behaviour. It's not fair for you to put up with his shit and by sticking around it teaches him the lesson that he can get away with it. In these cases it's best to walk away and not look back. It's tough but sometimes that's the best thing to do. I've been having problems with a friends of 10+ years too. I understand what you're going through. What a pain in the ass.

I recommend you to speak, one last time, and draw a line in the sand with his sharp tongue. Set a clear limit. If he crosses the line he can't say he wasn't warned.

I agree with this.

 

[entropie]

Wacky thoughts does not an ENTP make... Seriously, anyone can have "wacky" thoughts. ENTPs are pretty laid back. Yeah, we'll debate pretty much anything, but the rest of the description doesn't really fit.

It doesn't matter what type he is. If you feel bad in his presence, that's your answer right there - he's not good for you. Staying friends with someone, just because you've always been friends with that person, is not healthy and is not the basis of a good relationship.

Maybe he's going through a rough patch in his life and is taking it out on you? Maybe you should ask him... I know it must be difficult for you, but you shouldn't have to suffer in silence.

I am glad you joined the forum, now I dont have to post so much anymore

I second this.

 

[Habba]

I've actually already set up a "meeting" with him, in order to discuss the gravity of the situation. I don't even think he realizes how close I'm to doorslam him (I have an INFJ friend to guide me with that ), he's just waiting for me to realize my folly and say that I'm sorry or something like this.

Anyways, I see two sides in him. One is macho, who's mostly interested in watching sports (ice-hockey, football, boxing, wrestling), drinking beer and hanging out in bars. And one is hilarious, imaginative and enthusiastic. He'd be an amazing movie director.

I hate the first and like the latter... and lately he has been more of the first one.

Well, if he can't appreciate me, then off he goes.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I had some trouble with an ISxJ friend a while back. We eventually grew apart even though we've been friends for a long time. From my perspective the biggest problem was he kept misinterpreting what I said or did. Eventually he just got really pissed at me, and I wasn't sure what to do about it.

 

[Cenomite]

This guy sounds like a douchebag, and I don't think type specific advice will help you here. A douche is a douche, unfortunately. If he isn't willing to calm down then you're better off ditching him.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Yeah, I'm afraid that he'll be unable to step back and apologize for his manners. He doesn't see his folly, and thus won't make any concessions, so it would have to be who'd yield. And I promised myself not to yield so much anymore.



Yes, he has always little bit like that. But never to this extent. And before he couldn't stay angry more than a minute, after which he would say something hilarious and we would laugh at it all.

And I think he treats all the people little bit similarly, but of course, not to this extent. But other friends he has are not so analytical nor fact-respecting as I am, and thus aren't so often in arguments with him.

Cutting off the connection won't be a problem, in practice that is. We only see each other like once in a two weeks in football (as in soccer) matches (we play for the same team, and do to his very comparative nature, we end up arguing very lot about the matches). But I'm willing to leave the team too, if we can't get along.

If he's a P he wouldn't be as inclined to not do any apologizing and I would imagine he might be more likely to..although if presented with a J to agrue with, his T may take the upper hand in this and go for the win.

Mention to him there are no winners of these arguments because you get hurt. He may think you are arrogant and impervious to hurt, as he doesn't "see" your thinking patterns, being an S and he an N...
So he may bookend the segments of time you two spend together arguing and be 'mapping out' the scenario as it typically ends. He probably intuits that you see the past with cynicism..His prediction of scepticism for the future may trigger his thoughts to sort of predict these arguments coming and he may actually be bored with the repetitive nature of these exchanges.
I would try laughing with him at any incongruence. That way he has something to ponder, and may see you in a smarter light.

The fact that he laughs at some troubles, says to me, that he truly values your friendship.

The sports thing is great...I would definitely stay at it. Actually one environment which I get along great with Ss is in engaging a problem in quick order. So soccer would be good like that. See?

Tell him this ENTP told him to engage this challenge..I know I certainly enjoy expanding my mind in seeking to understand others. We're always seeking information...

Of course you could also tell him I'm watching him and am your advisor..and if he slips up, He will be going up against another ENTP..That should get his interest! Ha!

But seriously he probably takes your calm approach to problems as arrogance. And if you approach the situation with heart like a lion to tame the situation, probably feels challenged. So that's a dilemma.

I would stick to the sports. And any other intensely emergency type situation which you both would do well in teaming up.

Sorry for the discomfort...I understand that.

 

[redacted]

He sounds like a very immature ENTP.

You get to choose your friends, you know.

 

[entropie]

He sounds like a very immature ENTP.

You get to choose your friends, you know.

One day when he is starting his car, just before he turns the key. His mind will go back in time for the blink of a second and wonder about the black box he just saw beneath the exhaust of his car. But then, he will not pay attention to it and turn the key: BOOOOOOOOOOM !

 

[Habba]

One day when he is starting his car, just before he turns the key. His mind will go back in time for the blink of a second and wonder about the black box he just saw beneath the exhaust of his car. But then, he will not pay attention to it and turn the key: BOOOOOOOOOOM !

Well, he has couple of times told me that I remind him of Dexter..

The sports thing is great...I would definitely stay at it. Actually one environment which I get along great with Ss is in engaging a problem in quick order. So soccer would be good like that. See?

But the sports make it all much worse. 90% of time we argue, we argue about the match we've had. I'm quite sure, that if we weren't playing football, we wouldn't be having this series of arguments.

 

[Mondo]

He doesn't sound like the kind of ENTP I would be best buddies with...

 

[pecan111]

your entp friend

jsut a few thoughts and feelings on your question about your entp friend..

1- he does sound immature, but feelings for an nt are really underdeveloped for a long time, depending on the person of course
2-sometimes rants like this are challenges to get a rise out of you and to argue for the sake of arguing (i think we want to see the reactions because we use these in our perceptions of others-we are quite good at reading others but don't do well if someone like an ISFP is involved(that dastardly Fi is involved). we are searching for information to add to our storehouse of already overflowing information, but there is always room for more in certain areas
3-he might be really hurting at something either about you or someone else.
if he is, it is likely you ..only bec. we normally don't rant at anyone except ones that are too stifling, too constricting, too placid, or ones that have hurt us deeply. some may withdraw, but when some entp's are hurt, out comes the lethal words that can wound even deeper. i feel we all have to admit that although we dont' wish to hurt others intentionally, we all do at times in our lives, that is, if we are really honest with ourselves..
i have to add here that emotions are not well tolerated until you start developing your feeling...it is much better then...
4- you are his opposite and that can grate on anyone who is immature enough to think he is right , ALWAYS...which, of course, he isn't
5- nothing else comes immediately to mind...but challenging him to CALM DOWN is an instant head butting....you are trying to control him by saying this and he will have to control himself..he will fight you just to show you he can't be controlled...its all or nothign sometimes and even though he might regret his actions later, he won't likely back down...so its better to approach on a calm, rational level and say soemthing like ."I do not understand what is happenig with us and I want to talk about it. Please, can you think about a time when you can sit down and talk with me and tell me what is happening with you"...you never know what has happened in his life and belive me, if he is young, it is hard to allow anyone to help us...We grow ourselves up pretty much and we are an independent type...we don't like admitting we need help, but we do at times...
good luck...let us know what happens.....

 

[tinkerbell]

Sj's are my worst nightmare, overly anal and control freaks... I suspect he is feeling overly hemmed in by you. Perhaps accept him as he is and do what you can to be less annoying to him???

Lis