[NT] NTs and God

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Well gosh, thank goodness you stumbled upon the only religion on earth that both promises to transform people's lives for the better and has adherents who will confirm it!

I never said it's the only religion that works. I only said that it works.

 

[Mycroft]

I never said it's the only religion that works. I only said that it works.

You caught me mid-edit.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

How good something makes you feel, how much it helps you to improve your life - has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is true.

This is essentially why I (and most people) believe in science. It works and it's improved my quality of life. In fact whether or not something works is the most objective type of proof. Anything else is simply an attempt to elaborate on why something works.

 

[EcK]

This is essentially why I (and most people) believe in science. It works and it's improved my quality of life. In fact whether or not something works is the most objective type of proof. Anything else is simply an attempt to elaborate on why something works.

yeah, the bible's vision of the world, cosmology, geology and so on obviously works.
Especially when u know it's supposed to be written by the dude who created all of the forementionned things

i'll go for the weak minded theme

I know ppl usually go all 'i understand and respect religion' but as said previously in this post (i think) I dont.

Respect isn't something a group, or a person is entitled to.
It's about deserving, and I dont have much respect for those pathetic memes.

ps: u dont BELIEVE in science, u see it works, and then if something doesnt fit, u correct it, in a quest to get closer and closer to a 1:1 interpretation of the universe. Using this approach in religion, u'd probably be left with 'take a deep breath and relax' as a way of life. (no i dont think the killings of the bible would 'work' in modern days)
pss: no, trying to understand how things work is not BAD it's the reason why most of the things u have now DO work, but yeah, thank for reminding us that religions teach ppl not to think. Yeah, i can quote christian thinkers here.
But hey, I always enjoy the zelot jargon.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

yeah, the bible's vision of the world, cosmology, geology and so on obviously works.
Especially when u know it's supposed to be written by the dude who created all of the forementionned things

Well I'm glad you agree it works. Although worldview itself is for the most part subjective. The test is in the actual results of a worldview.

ps: u dont BELIEVE in science, u see it works, and then if something doesnt fit, u correct it, in a quest to get closer and closer to a 1:1 interpretation of the universe. Using this approach in religion, u'd probably be left with 'take a deep breath and relax' as a way of life. (no i dont think the killings of the bible would 'work' in modern days)

But I actually do believe in science. I trust that it will continue to make discoveries that lead to new and useful technologies. I don't merely believe what it says, but I also believe in it as a process.

pss: no, trying to understand how things work is not BAD it's the reason why most of the things u have now DO work, but yeah, thank for reminding us that religions teach ppl not to think. Yeah, i can quote christian thinkers here.
But hey, I always enjoy the zelot jargon.

Is this in response to something that I've said specifically?

 

[EcK]

Well I'm glad you agree it works. Although worldview itself is for the most part subjective. The test is in the actual results of a worldview.

it was being ironic. "hey ppl, the earth is flat, also, the sun turns around the earth and earth is a few thousands years old'

wow, just wow

Is this in response to something that I've said specifically?

look, i love life and so on, i'm not attacking u, I just say that ur kinda like a guy who heard a guy tell him he heard that unicorns existed.

Well, unicorns are cool. Read the bible, ur god is killer of his own children.

 

[Totenkindly]

it was being ironic. "hey ppl, the earth is flat, also, the sun turns around the earth and earth is a few thousands years old' ow, just wow

This is where you show your own ignorance of Christianity and scripture.

Only the religious and atheist fundamentalists read the Bible that way -- picking and choosing verses out of the context of the surrounding passages, and reading them as literal comments on science. That's a pretty narrow way to read scripture.

I also know Laser, and he's not what you accuse him of, if you've read many of his posts. He's quite more complicated than you're making him out to be here, by just lumping him sloppily in with your particular view of religious believers.

look, i love life and so on, i'm not attacking u, I just say that ur kinda like a guy who heard a guy tell him he heard that unicorns existed. Well, unicorns are cool. Read the bible, ur god is killer of his own children.

Again.

Your readings are pretty simplistic, regardless of your ultimate stance.

And yeah, it's sort of an attack, since it's sort of a slur on his intelligence. Just like if I'd say, "Yeah, you're a lot like the nutjobs I disagree with, you know, the loopy crazy ones who can't think straight." Wouldn't you be annoyed to be categorized like that?

 

[EcK]

This is where you show your own ignorance of Christianity and scripture.

Only the religious and atheist fundamentalists read the Bible that way -- picking and choosing verses out of the context of the surrounding passages, and reading them as literal comments on science. That's a pretty narrow way to read scripture.

I also know Laser, and he's not what you accuse him of, if you've read many of his posts. He's quite more complicated than you're making him out to be here, by just lumping him sloppily in with your particular view of religious believers.



Again.

Your readings are pretty simplistic, regardless of your ultimate stance.

yeah, and i like the way ur not stating anything relevant.

 

[Totenkindly]

yeah, and i like the way ur not stating anything relevant.

*rofl*

If you really want to tangle with me on religion, get a new thread... or better yet, just read all the other posts I've made on the topic here or on INTPc over the last two years, since they go into far more detail.

 

[EcK]

*rofl*

If you really want to tangle with me on religion, get a new thread... or better yet, just read all the other posts I've made on the topic here or on INTPc over the last two years, since they go into far more detail.

well, we live in the here and now, so going all 'my status on some forum is so much higher than urs' isn't really the absolute argument to me.

Look, i dont want to fight or something, but the FACT is, the bible doesn't make ANY sense, and what ppl call 'reading things wrong' is basically an ever more overly twisted interpretation of a text, yet, somehow a direct read is the wrong one.

I'm sure that elements that by some chance seem to agree with actual facts (like, in the real world u know), would be interpreted 'as they are'.

Religions are laughable things, made for weak people.
I endured the whole 'i understand how u feel thing', but the fact that's there's always someone like you rushing in to save the 'poor christian with no solid argument what so ever', just proves how much of a mind plague this thing is.

laugh and convince urself i'm just another prick.

I dont give a fuck. Our interpretation of the world still keeps proving, everyday, that yet another 'religious' thing, has rational, scientific explanations. And yet again, zelots will tell that the next thing is god, that religion isn't to be judged by the sciences of the physical world while, god seems to (in the bible) have directs effects on this world (and therefore be a subject of study for science) .

the list goes on.

 

[Fuent]

Some people never grow out of the phase where they have imaginary friends. It doesn't sound as weird when you call it God.

It's crippling i think. That friend follows you wherever you go and applies "moral" leverage to any of your decisions. You aren't free to be yourself, you're trapped in a box you created for yourself. Some people feel comfortable hiding in that box b/c they're scared of the world and feel safe retreating inside of it. Or maybe they're scared/ashamed of the person they would become if they didn't have that box to hold them back.

It's sad. "Morality." Haha please. Don't make me laugh.

 

[Totenkindly]

well, we live in the here and now, so going all 'my status on some forum is so much higher than urs' isn't really the absolute argument to me.

It wasn't meant to be.

Step back a second.
Here's what I'm saying:

I already MADE these arguments elsewhere.
I don't feel like repeating them.
Go read them, then challenge them logically as you see fit.

Instead of parsing it rationally, you immediately twisted what I said as some sort of "authority figure" clout-pull on you.

And that keys into what I said earlier: You're not really engaging what is being said, you're just having kneejerk, simplistic responses to anyone who might be on the "other side" ... and failing to see that you're doing it.

Look, i dont want to fight or something, but the FACT is, the bible doesn't make ANY sense, and what ppl call 'reading things wrong' is basically an ever more overly twisted interpretation of a text, yet, somehow a direct read is the wrong one.

That's not really my position... since you didn't bother to look up anything I might have said elsewhere.

Look, I'm 40 now. I've been arguing on both sides of this issue since I was 20. Your responses reflect a typical 20 year old mind on this, the same arguments I heard people make at that time in my life. They were short-sighted then, they're short-sighted now. There's a lot more to it than what you're suggesting.

And please don't read that as another "authority" pull on you -- parse it logically via a similar example: If you've been a mechanic for a year, and a guy who has been doing mechanics 20 years says, "Hey, I have dealt with that problem before, and maybe you'd have more headway by [doing this]," wouldn't you at least bother to examine what he's saying for a bit before just saying, "Oh, you're an idiot and don't know what you're talking about?"

That seems to be common sense to me.

Religions are laughable things, made for weak people.

Opinion.

My opinion:

Religion can be a crutch.
So can other things in life as well.

I've met wise religious people and wise people without a particular faith.
I've met complete morons who were religious and complete morons who thought they were sheer genius caviar spread on expensive crackers. Meh.

Personally, I have more than enough reason to hate religion: It has bitten me in the ass far too many times for my welfare. I don't know why I don't hate God, hate religion, and hate religious people. But for some reason, I still have some sort of "faith" and find it compatibility with my rationality. It isn't fundamentalist Christianity, but it's still there.

Your critique seems pretty sloppy to me, there's more complexity to it than apparently you've experienced, and you basically paint one extreme of religion, then mark it as stupid when most people (even religious ones) would agree with you. Big deal.

I endured the whole 'i understand how u feel thing', but the fact that's there's always someone like you rushing in to save the 'poor christian with no solid argument what so ever', just proves how much of a mind plague this thing is.

Character attack. Thanks.
Maybe you need to work on your arguments.
So far you're just dismissing things you don't like with feeble logical fallacy.

laugh and convince urself i'm just another prick.

I don't think that at all.

I think you're probably young, you haven't experience a lot of complexity yet, religion has imposed unfairly on your life and probably has REALLY pissed you off (as it has me), and now you don't have anything to stand on in this particular exchange, so you're just taking shots at me from the hip to fend me off.

I've taken a lot worse and I'm still standing.

Maybe when you're spent, the light will come on and you'll realize I'm not actually an enemy.

I dont give a fuck. Our interpretation of the world still keeps proving, everyday, that yet another 'religious' thing, has rational, scientific explanations. And yet again, zelots will tell that the next thing is god, that religion isn't to be judged by the sciences of the physical world while, god seems to (in the bible) have directs effects on this world (and therefore be a subject of study for science) .the list goes on.

Since I agree more with you on this issue than the zealot you're branding me as (*yawn*), I'll just sit here and twiddle my thumbs and wait until you're done firing wildly.

 

[EcK]

alright, say what you will

please point me to some fallacies in my logics. You dont take parts, you basically just tell me that i should write a thesis everytime somebody comes up with a bad argument and strong emotional attachement. Yes, judging too fast is wrong, yet I do think belief is just another form of lack in judgement.

Would you write a thesis for the theory of the 'solar system' atom ?
I don't think so.


Maybe i'm young, but really, you lady, are overdoing the 'i"m a sage' thing.
And as I said, u have arguments, say them here, or just dont post. I did say alot of things about religion, and I dont feel like telling people they should 'refer to my past discussion', registered or not.

Ps: i'd like to say I didn't meant all I said as a true ad hominem attack, was more about, belief in general. My apologizes for the way it came out, my bad.
pss: I didnt appreciate the whole 'u didnt experience much complexity' thing, but hey, I do get your point.

 

[htb]

Haha, I'll be the laughingstock of NTs. Oh well.

No, as you can see, you simply compelled a few insecure flamers to post.

 

[EcK]

No, as you can see, you simply compelled a few insecure flamers to post.

Yes not trying to make any sensible arguments yet calling those others proposed as originating from 'insecure flamers' makes you come out as a genius.

 

[Fuent]

See this is why i don't like arguing about religion. People get all pissy and shit because it's an EXPLOSIVE subject. It's like trying to knock over a book using a stick of dynamite. You don't just knock over the book, you blow up the walls too, debris flies out and hits all the children, the room catches on fire, and the foundation starts to crumble and now nobody has a home to live in because it got wrecked to shit.

I've never seen an argument about religion where people have the precision to use their hand to knock over the book instead of throwing in a grenade or some shit. It always reaches that point where someone gets really offended and overcompensates.

 

[EcK]

See this is why i don't like arguing about religion. People get all pissy and shit because it's an EXPLOSIVE subject. It's like trying to knock over a book using a stick of dynamite. You don't just knock over the book, you blow up the walls too, debris flies out and hits all the children, the room catches on fire, and the foundation starts to crumble and now nobody has a home to live in because it got wrecked to shit.

I've never seen an argument about religion where people have the precision to use their hand to knock over the book instead of throwing in a grenade or some shit. It always reaches that point where someone gets really offended and overcompensates.

yeah, i think it's one of the only thing that can lead me to serious murder 'ups i meant violence '

Na but, yeah your right of course, entps and their sick habit for winning arguments I guess.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

What do NTs think of God, and how do they relate to Him ?
Three Christian-culture NTs I know admit either indifference or little understanding of what they call "religion."

Is it possible for an NT to be interested in God ?

I'm interested in God, but not in the personal God. Well, I'm interested in the personal god because it's philosophically interesting, but I don't believe in it. I'm not opposed to the idea, but I see nothing that would suggest a person god exist, and everything else that suggests people would likely make up something like that to explain life (its purpose and its origin) and to provide security.

I'm much more interested in god as the universe itself, me included, not as something or some entity which should be worshiped, but something that should be revered and honored.

 

[TheLastMohican]

If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. I simply die. If atheists are wrong, then they have a hell of a lot to pay for. Not a bet I'm willing to take.

Pascal's wager seems pretty silly when you consider two things: it could be applied to countless religions, and you do have something to lose: your lifetime. If you turn out to be wrong, then you have wasted precious time worshipping a nonexistent God and trying to follow the moral restrictions of a useless book.

 

[Edgar]

Pascal's wager seems pretty silly when you consider two things: it could be applied to countless religions, and you do have something to lose: your lifetime. If you turn out to be wrong, then you have wasted precious time worshipping a nonexistent God and trying to follow the moral restrictions of a useless book.

Not to mention if God does in fact exist, he probably won't be impressed by the fact that you approached faith in Him like a poker wager.