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[ENTJ] Are ENTJs manipulative?

groovejet02

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
199
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
If people tell you you are manipulative, it would be wise to ask them honestly HOW exactly you are manipulative. Just because common consensus says that ENTJs are least likely to be manipulative doesn't mean you should automatically escape blame.
 
G

garbage

Guest
Get an ENTJ who knows something about Fe in terms of social rules/roles and give-and-take, and you have someone who has the capacity to pretty much manipulate and control anything and anyone..
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
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9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
:popc1: Stereotypes are fun. Everything that's needed to be said has been said in the first few pages, no you aren't. You're some of the least manipulative people I've been around RL and on the net. I think anyone can be manipulative when they really REALLY need to achieve a goal, this may be where the stereotype comes from, since you guys have a good amount of goals from what I've observed.
 
R

Riva

Guest
Overall, the ENTJs I know are considered by most people to be more manipulative on average than other types.

this is because the ENTPs never get caught.
anyway ENTJs are very manipulative. their source of manipulative power comes from their personal power gained or expressed. they have a sense of i know what i am doing is ryt. if you resist me that means you are dumb. so a person who feels inferior(and ENTJs unconsciously make a lot of people feel that way) will do what a ENTJ will tell you to do, against their will.

on the other hand an INFJ( i am referring to you EVAN) would make you feel as if you are doing the right thing by doing what he tells you cus it's the right thing to do in a humane point of view. which is totaly different from ENTJs manipulation. ENTJs depend of logic and 'who dare resist me' kind of attitude.

these two methods are like the two different sides of the same coin. one can never get heads or tails at the same time.

even ESTPs are very manipulative. but their manipulation is for short term gain. and it should be mentioned that most of the time ESTPs twist the facts WITHOUT KNOWING IT.

anyway i don't believe that all types are capable of manipulation. it is not as easy as it sounds and needs careful planing and far reaching vision. few types are capable of making a plan and thinking whether the person who needs to be manipulated could be tricked and whether that person will see more benefits than loses. that i guess is a ENTJ frame of mind. there are 100s of points to be added.
sounds esy right? i don't think so.

anyway how could anyone talk about manipulation without talking about ENTPs. well let me put it this way - they are coins which could change their sides whenever they want to.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
this is because the ENTPs never get caught.
anyway ENTJs are very manipulative. their source of manipulative power comes from their personal power gained or expressed. they have a sense of i know what i am doing is ryt. if you resist me that means you are dumb. so a person who feels inferior(and ENTJs unconsciously make a lot of people feel that way) will do what a ENTJ will tell you to do, against their will.

on the other hand an INFJ( i am referring to you EVAN) would make you feel as if you are doing the right thing by doing what he tells you cus it's the right thing to do in a humane point of view. which is totaly different from ENTJs manipulation. ENTJs depend of logic and 'who dare resist me' kind of attitude.

these two methods are like the two different sides of the same coin. one can never get heads or tails at the same time.

even ESTPs are very manipulative. but their manipulation is for short term gain. and it should be mentioned that most of the time ESTPs twist the facts WITHOUT KNOWING IT.

anyway i don't believe that all types are capable of manipulation. it is not as easy as it sounds and needs careful planing and far reaching vision. few types are capable of making a plan and thinking whether the person who needs to be manipulated could be tricked and whether that person will see more benefits than loses. that i guess is a ENTJ frame of mind. there are 100s of points to be added.
sounds esy right? i don't think so.

anyway how could anyone talk about manipulation without talking about ENTPs. well let me put it this way - they are coins which could change their sides whenever they want to.

I agree. ENTPs are probably just as "manipulative" (whatever that means) as ENTJs, if not more. And INFJs have the same kind of power, although since they're introverted, they're probably less interested in external results.

Check out the "who's more manipulative: INFJ or ENTP?" thread; there's some good stuff in there.

Personal anecdote: my ex-girlfriend (ENTP) and I got in a silly argument about who is more manipulative (with each of us wanting to be the more manipulative one for some reason). We decided to ask our mutual friend (an ENFP) who knows both of us extremely well what she thought. She said I was more manipulative -- my ex's strategy (manipulating people all the time) actually works to her disadvantage because people are on the lookout for it. Whereas I'm pretty good at hiding it in some sort of moral issue, and I even believe myself in the moment. I'm also pretty good as using people/my reputation as a source of power.


Anyway, though, as I said earlier in this thread, this isn't really the sort of thing that is well measured in MBTI terms. Unless someone wants to define manipulation in a very narrow way.
 

maliafee

Active member
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
1,127
Your gut feelings, please. Are ENTJs more manipulative than any other type?

I'm ENTJ (moderately weak E, very strong N) and have been accused of being manipulative a handful of times in my life - but I wasn't consciously trying to manipulate anyone.

My future mother-in-law is great, but I detect her attempting to manipulate me quite a bit, mostly just as a method of convincing me that she is correct about a reason for something. It's not a problem.

I can provide examples. :D
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,708
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ENTP
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738
My feeling is that entj are more about fulfilling goals than being literally 'people oriented'. they are more likely to get things done because they are efficient at getting results and are assertive. Most people will bend when facing those two traits. So yes I'm sure they can be manipulative but not the way a more people oriented person could be.

Now what is 'manipulation'?
From a behaviorist's perspective we all do it, we use positive and negative reinforcement, seek to understand what one can be drawn to and their avoidance strategies.
So really, when you say an entj is 'manipulative' you're mainly saying that he's Te, and will seek to accomplish things. Since we're social animals, they have to understand how to get past resistance\get support.
Some entjs could become manipulative by starting to see other people as a set of 'things they could have' thanks to Te (If i do that i get that) strategies.
Now in average entjs are smarter than estj (i said average, do not burn me alive yet). A smart estj will probably be just as manipulative if not more because of the extra S.

In the end we call manipulative people who are better at doing what we all do.
Now the slave morality (read nietzsche, don't ask) taught us to often call it manipulation instead of people skill.

Some people are naturally good in they're realtime interactions with people, other are naturally good at having a conceptual understanding of human behavior. Both are seen as good. So why should having both traits result in being 'manipulative'. (I'm thinking about the entp\infj are mean manipulators ramblings)
 

Rangler

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Jan 19, 2009
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3w8
Everyone wants to believe they are in control of their behavior. Often we forget that people are more than their MBTI. They are also a product of their environment, which has other individuals in it. Worse still we are wired to connect with each other to survive. Humans are, at the end of the day, pack animals.

So simply having an effect on others' behavior doesn't make anybody manipulative in the negatively connotative sense. We all affect each other. And, we all have our place. ENTJs may be the most naturally driven type. We can see the larger picture, analyze the situation, create a plan, mobilize others to use their strengths, and track progress. This is why we given labels like "fieldmarshal" and "executive".

In order for us to do all that, others need to trust us. And, undeveloped ENTJs do a poor job of building relationships of trust. Mainly, because respect works two ways. And we are insensitive to the point of being disrespectful to others. Also, the positions of leadership we want give us the capacity to consistently and disproportionately affect others. This again, reinforces how important trust is.

So I guess my question is to the other types is, how can we build trust with you, while being who we are, and trying to achieve set objectives?
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
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So I guess my question is to the other types is, how can we build trust with you, while being who we are, and trying to achieve set objectives?
Getting others to help you manipulate them... Dude, you're good :D








(I'm kidding, just in case some started watching his napoleon avatar suspiciously:doh:)
 

ENTJ Extraordinaire

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Oct 27, 2008
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9w1
i think its important to remember that ENTJ are supposedly amazing in Social Situations. we can control and organise people all around us in a social context. We do so by being Persuasive like everyone keeps saying on here. and also i concur with the general consensus that ENTJ while capable are way too forward to have any desire to be so SINISTER.

BUT!

speaking from experience, i DO manipulate quite a lot. i notice it in conversation, argument, and circumstance, i have pretty much absolute control over direction and path of most situations and occurrences. And i do Manipulate rather successfully, because i have learnt an INFJ trick. By showing enough to not have people guess there is more under the surface, people give up the chase. that is you are forward and open enough to be able to satisfy any curiosity, thus allowing a subversive manipulation to go undetected.

i think generally ENTJ only ever manipulate when they have no confidence in their persuasion, or if they are confident that they aren't going to get caught :D
after all, practicing such acts with terrible connotations like that cannot be good to the reputation of trust of the ENTJ, and so can only harm the overall goal :D
 

redacted

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Nov 28, 2007
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4,223
And i do Manipulate rather successfully, because i have learnt an INFJ trick. By showing enough to not have people guess there is more under the surface, people give up the chase. that is you are forward and open enough to be able to satisfy any curiosity, thus allowing a subversive manipulation to go undetected.

It sometimes annoys me how well this works.
 

stormyapril

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Joined
Mar 17, 2008
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63
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ENTP
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8
Yes,

But so do ENTPs when interested enough to care... Probably sneakier than most ENTJs too since we don't need to have the illusion of power to go with it.

Of course, I have to add, everyone engages in the "manipulation" and on some level agrees to be lead if they are not interested in doing so themselves. Hence the illusion of control, but it is so fleeting...
 

Rangler

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ENTJ
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Yes,

But so do ENTPs when interested enough to care... Probably sneakier than most ENTJs too since we don't need to have the illusion of power to go with it.

Of course, I have to add, everyone engages in the "manipulation" and on some level agrees to be lead if they are not interested in doing so themselves. Hence the illusion of control, but it is so fleeting...

I agree with all of it.
 

Ace_

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Jun 2, 2009
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233
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TNT
Honestly I've never been called manipulative in my entire life.
 

rav3n

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Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
There's a subset of all types who are manipulative.

As far as the ENTJ friend and I are concerned, we're too direct to manipulate.

I find it annoying to expend time and energy on machinations. But what might be considered manipulative at cursory glance, is shifting perception.
 
F

figsfiggyfigs

Guest
Yes, infact, it's very easy.

I think unhealthy ENTJ's are more likely to be manipulative.

I don't think there really is a need to manipulate anyone.

Unless it's in a work environment and it's absolutely necessary.

I still wouldn't bother, if I want something, I'm going to say that I do, and you better do it. I don't have time for games.


speaking from experience, i DO manipulate quite a lot. i notice it in conversation, argument, and circumstance, i have pretty much absolute control over direction and path of most situations and occurrences. And i do Manipulate rather successfully, because i have learnt an INFJ trick. By showing enough to not have people guess there is more under the surface, people give up the chase. that is you are forward and open enough to be able to satisfy any curiosity, thus allowing a subversive manipulation to go undetected.

Good point. I used to that all the time when I was younger...
 
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