[ENTJ] Are ENTJs manipulative?

[white]

Yeah, personal experience in watching people manipulate people.

Have you been manipulated/manipulated others yourself though?

I'm asking because I'm thinking that perhaps, the one being manipulated may not always know it, but if that is the case, the observer judges the act.

Is the observer the best judge though, if the persons involved do not think it is manipulation?

I find Fe manipulation more subtle anyway. Te is more of overt control to me.

 

[Jack Flak]

Have you been manipulated/manipulated others yourself though?

Sure, but I'm almost impervious to it now. I decipher intent, as in "what is the goal of saying this?", and if it's a discrete attempt at control, I shut 'em down, big time. I'm not nice in circumstances like that.

 

[white]

^ By what could we judge "intent"?

 

[FDG]

Well, honestly, no, I haven't ever been called manipulative. I can try to be persuasive, if I really think something is beneficial for everyone and I am completely sure that it is a better alternative than something the person is going to do. I think I am not even very good at being persuasive either, because I employ a brute-force approach - I never try to emotionally leverage the situation (which is often the most effective method - but out of my reach).

I can be manipulative with systems, though. If there's a completely legal way to get a tax break, or to get financed in a particularly cheap way, or to get a particular scolarship which is not well-know, or to solve an equation by nonstandard methods, or to do a task in a less time-expensive way, I will employ it. I think that's just efficiently allocating resources, though.

 

[Jack Flak]

^ By what could we judge "intent"?

By what? History, known inclination, demeanor, undertones, context, the list goes on. Intuition much?

 

[norepinephrine]

ENTJs are not manipulative.

We can be highly persuasive if the need calls for it, but that is a far cry from 'manipulative' and all of the connotations attached.

Add "doggedly persistent" to the above and it describes the ENTJs I've known quite well.

To be honest, I'm probably more manipulative, but I'm far less determined.

 

[white]

By what? History, known inclination, demeanor, undertones, context, the list goes on. Intuition much?

Those are subjective measures mainly, which is what I was driving at - ergo it could appear manipulative to you, but to the person exercising it, it may not have been that way at all, just sayin'... That which we call integrity refers to our own, but what of the person being true to himself, even if it appears manipulative to others... who's the best judge of what is manipulation anyway...

 

[Lateralus]

I've never been called manipulative, though I think I could be if I tried. I see manipulation as dealing more with emotions than logic. If you can convince someone of something, logically, is that manipulation? That doesn't seem to be what most people are referring to when they talk about manipulation. What if you convince someone of something through appeals to emotion? That sounds a lot more like the popular definition of manipulation to me.

 

[mlittrell]

the ones i know are everything but manipulative.

 

[Synarch]

ENTJ are too obvious to be successfully manipulative. Their agendas are too open.

 

[mlittrell]

ENTJ are too obvious to be successfully manipulative. Their agendas are too open.

ya thats a good way to put it. its not efficient for ENTJs to be manipulative. does that mean they can't be manipulative? of course not, I just cant see it happening often.

 

[Jack Flak]

Those are subjective measures mainly, which is what I was driving at - ergo it could appear manipulative to you, but to the person exercising it, it may not have been that way at all, just sayin'... That which we call integrity refers to our own, but what of the person being true to himself, even if it appears manipulative to others... who's the best judge of what is manipulation anyway...

Oh, I know it when I see it, same as knowing it's f'n day or night when I walk outside. And being a manipulative ass is very true to some peoples' selves.

 

[Chemgrl82]

Yes.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

Yes.

I agree with everything you say in that post but I look at it as proof that we're not manipulative. We may be overbearing and harsh but we're definitely not manipulative in any sense. The people who travel the gray roads in life are always looking for subtext and are equipped with the insight into how to underhandedly deal with situations they're too afraid to speak up for outright or whatever reason.

In pushing others and testing them to see what their limits are, I see that as forcing them to come out of hiding from under their little gray blankets and face the black or white stark truth of who/what they are. When we want an answer, we want it NOW and we want it to be presented in its rawest form.

Everyone is metaphorically born black or white (not referring to the actual color of anyone's skin, obviously. What I mean by this is that we enter into the world as blank slates; slates that have yet to be filled with any shade/color, thus either black or white; an amalgam of all colors fused into one color or the absolute absence of color) but other types slowly subconsciously and consciously let the gray seep into their existence. ENTJ's on the other hand, are super aware of this; which is why we're constantly looking to battle and conquer those gray notions/ideas that try and pervade into our black or white ways of existing.

Even to extreme F types, we might seem unreasonably unyielding or intensely cold, but they would never call us manipulative.

Obviously though there is always an exception to the rule and the only instance that I can think of in which an ENTJ might be manipulative is if they're very insecure or have weird psychological complexes.

 

[01011010]

My closest friend is ENTJ. She's intelligent enough to pull it off successfully, but she's never done anything remotely manipulative in the many years I've known her.

 

[felt up]

ENTJ/Ps are a great study! I find they relate to most others through manipulative means to get what they want. They tend to be completely unaware of their tendencies to do so, too. If I brought it up, they might say something to the effect that I'm "reading into their behavior." I can't tell you how many times I've seen an ENTP/J in action, attempting to use the feelings of (particularly) NFs to their advantage to convince them that something the ENTP wants is really the NFs idea. You can call it persuasion and charm all you want. I call it manipulation. You guys are sharks! ESFJs may give you a run for your money, though. They employ guilt AND instill shame.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

ENTJ/Ps are a great study! I find they relate to most others through manipulative means to get what they want. They tend to be completely unaware of their tendencies to do so, too. If I brought it up, they might say something to the effect that I'm "reading into their behavior." I can't tell you how many times I've seen an ENTP/J in action, attempting to use the feelings of (particularly) NFs to their advantage to convince them that something the ENTP wants is really the NFs idea. You can call it persuasion and charm all you want. I call it manipulation. You guys are sharks! ESFJs may give you a run for your money, though.

Hahaha the only F types in my life that have ever remotely thought I was manipulative were ENFJ and INFJ. And mostly it's because both types definitely read too much into my behavior (or wished there was more to read into my behavior because they didn't want to accept that someone could be so black and white) and considered my logic or rationality manipulative because it forced them to see what they didn't want to see or face.

They considered my lack of regard for their feelings "manipulative" which I can see how it can be misconstrued as manipulation from an XNFJ's point of view because they're feelings are attached to almost everything they think and do.

They employ guilt AND instill shame.

You guys only think we do 'cause you're so damn sensitive!

 

[Rajah]

Extremely. And in my experience, they're sadistic bastards too.


/stereotype

 

[FDG]

I enjoy torturing small animals.
I piss in my bed.
I set my hair on fire.

'nuff said.

Seriously, I'm not a big fan of testing people. An optimistic approximation gives me 100 years to live (so, 80 more). Do I want to maximize my happiness through this time-interval, or waste time playing games? Well, the choice seems obvious to me.

 

[substitute]

I don't think ENTJ's are manipulative at all, in my experience they're very direct and tend to tell you outright what they think, expect and want of you, and to give you ample opportunity to refuse. If you happen to feel too "intimidated" to refuse, that's your problem, quite rightly. I agree with FDG, I've seldom known them to play games.

If ENTP's use NF's feelings for manipulation, then I'd love to know what you call the megalithic guilt trips I routinely receive from NF's...

I agree with everything you say in that post but I look at it as proof that we're not manipulative. We may be overbearing and harsh but we're definitely not manipulative in any sense. The people who travel the gray roads in life are always looking for subtext and are equipped with the insight into how to underhandedly deal with situations they're too afraid to speak up for outright or whatever reason.

In pushing others and testing them to see what their limits are, I see that as forcing them to come out of hiding from under their little gray blankets and face the black or white stark truth of who/what they are. When we want an answer, we want it NOW and we want it to be presented in its rawest form.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Specially the bold part. I've been on the receiving end of that in a community group for several months and the underlined part, it's so destructive it's unbelievable.