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[NT] INTP Fear of Intimacy

Rachelinpa

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I know that personally I love intimate relationships... with people I can trust to not abuse the information I've given them by trying to gain power over me. If they are willing to go that deep, I am willing to go that deep. In fact, I *want* to go that deep and become bored when someone won't.

As ENFP, I almost always want to know. What you said reminded me of when the INTP said to me, "I'm not going to tell you now because you asked again." This is so strange to me because it seemed like he WANTED to share, but I guess maybe he felt the pressure. At the same time, for me, it is hard to switch off like that... into a mode of indifference. But, it's almost like that's what he wanted me to do...
 

Totenkindly

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Yeah, that is so interesting! I love how open to possibilities you NTs are...

Yup, nothing is inviolate!

As soon as the data stream changes, reality changes and thus truth changes. It is intellectual integrity, you have to accommodate the data even if you do not like it.

It's like... THIS IS HOW IT IS... but... maybe not.

I would correct this to:
"THIS IS HOW IT IS <UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME> or <BASED ON ALL INFORMATION I CURRENTLY HAVE>."

It's why I state things emphatically, so I sound sure to others... but as soon as you give me info that differs, I change my stance. The conclusion being drawn in the moment is very certain because it's very qualified -- but what changes is the information, and the new conclusion drawn is very certain based on the pool of data.

Does that make sense?

The Ti process is very sure of itself; it's the information that is the weak point. If information is changing rapidly, the conclusions can change rapidly.

Such a contrast to my ISTJ and ESFP friends who are like THIS IS HOW IT IS... period.

ISxJ too, but they flex based on Fe needs to accommodate others.

As ENFP, I almost always want to know. What you said reminded me of when the INTP said to me, "I'm not going to tell you now because you asked again." This is so strange to me because it seemed like he WANTED to share, but I guess maybe he felt the pressure. At the same time, for me, it is hard to switch off like that... into a mode of indifference. But, it's almost like that's what he wanted me to do...

I'm not sure about that -- whether it's just reticence on his part, or because in some way you did something (inadvertently) to make him unsure of you. I think when something is revealed, if someone misses it or forgets it, it can feel like a slight. I don't know. It's all context.

or if you seem too eager, that sometimes triggers reticence as well. The distrust of emotion and/or interest sometimes can lead to INTPs pulling in their heads if someone gets too excited about a personal interaction. (I'm okay with those things now, but I remember feeling very uneasy in the past.)
 

Rachelinpa

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It was a little of both. The realization that I was hurting people was an eye-opener after I was hurt myself several times in the same way. Selfish realization, I suppose. Meeting a person who was willing to fight ... really fight ... to keep me was an eye-opener as well. It was amazing to find a person who, after I screwed up, didn't just throw me away ... but rather fought to straighten me out and was there for me. Mind you, she doesn't tolerate indescretions on my part, but she is willing to work though my past with me. Having somebody who really cares about me that much, makes me think twice before I act nowsdays.

Hmm. Thank you for sharing. I don't think I would guess that you guys care or want this sort of committed devotion as much as you actually do. It's so under the surface.
 

Salomé

meh
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a pitch
a catch-
hitched.

an itch,
a scratch-
ditched.

the rest
is history,
waiting
to be fixed.
 

Rachelinpa

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I would correct this to:
"THIS IS HOW IT IS <UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME> or <BASED ON ALL INFORMATION I CURRENTLY HAVE>."

It's why I state things emphatically, so I sound sure to others... but as soon as you give me info that differs, I change my stance. The conclusion being drawn in the moment is very certain because it's very qualified -- but what changes is the information, and the new conclusion drawn is very certain based on the pool of data.

Does that make sense?

The Ti process is very sure of itself; it's the information that is the weak point. If information is changing rapidly, the conclusions can change rapidly.

Yes! Incredibly emphatic. I think it was written somewhere that this is one of the reasons NFs annoy NTs... because we do not state what we believe as emphatically... and it seems we are wishy-washy. I wonder if I could argue that NTs are equally unsure, but unwilling to let people think that is the case.
 

Totenkindly

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It was a little of both. The realization that I was hurting people was an eye-opener after I was hurt myself several times in the same way. Selfish realization, I suppose. Meeting a person who was willing to fight ... really fight ... to keep me was an eye-opener as well. It was amazing to find a person who, after I screwed up, didn't just throw me away ... but rather fought to straighten me out and was there for me.

:)

:hug:

Mind-boggling, isn't it?
But that's one of the values of that approach.
And it does mean a great deal.
 

Rachelinpa

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Maybe NTs are sure up to a point (like you said)... and NFs are unsure up to a point...
 

Nighthawk

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Hmm. Thank you for sharing. I don't think I would guess that you guys care or want this sort of committed devotion as much as you actually do. It's so under the surface.

I'm a bit on the older side of the forum. It became more important for me in my 40's than it was in my 20's. It might be something that an INTP develops over time.
 

Synarch

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I think intimacy is tough for NT's in general as we're not so comfortable with the soft and squishy side of things. I regard emotions as this dark ocean of meaning and chthonic impulses that surges beneath the surface. Tapping into that by way of emotional congress with another is both exciting and terrifying.
 

Totenkindly

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Maybe NTs are sure up to a point (like you said)... and NFs are unsure up to a point...

Why? What's it feel like inside for you?

(But remember, if you're ENFP, you're supposedly primarily Ne, using your values to support which possibilities you're chasing and following through on -- "What can I construct and implement in the world, when my values are true?" INFP is more about creating a value framework while constantly looking at potential options.)

I think intimacy is tough for NT's in general as we're not so comfortable with the soft and squishy side of things. I regard emotions as this dark ocean of meaning and chthonic impulses that surges beneath the surface. Tapping into that by way of emotional congress with another is both exciting and terrifying.

The first person I fell in love with was an ESFJ.
They were also the first person I violently rejected a few months later.

There was a reason for that. Talk about "moth to flames." *shudder*
 

substitute

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it's common to most NT's I think... or T's in general, actually. reasons/motives for it vary hugely from individual to individual, but as a general tendency, I think most T's tend to carry some kind of baggage around that causes a knee-jerk response to the phrase 'open up' and the word 'intimate'. In my case it's not so much that I don't want to, or that I fear losing autonomy, as just that I have had lots of experiences where I've overridden my emotional baggage and taken the chance, only to be abandoned later.

So, fear of abandonment can be added to the list of possible motives for fearing intimacy. I remember a poem I read that was written by a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. He talked about how, at great pain and personal cost to himself, he worked and worked at trying to build a bridge between himself and the rest of humanity, on nothing but trust, listening to the people who promised him that if he stopped isolating himself and opened up to other people, then things would be great, he wouldn't have to feel lonely any more. Well, in the poem, he did all this, and then once he built his bridge 'with tears for supports, blood for rivets and pain for ropes', and after taking a painful leap of faith to cross it, he found there was nobody there on the other side.

That poem resonated with me quite strongly at the time as it was how I've often felt when I've listened to people lecturing me about opening up, then I've taken the leap of faith and then the person who was so desperate to get me to do it has not been there to show me round this new territory. So I've just dashed back to the other side again, burning the bridge as I go.

Each time I've opened up to somebody, I've had to build that bridge again and it's been harder every time in light of previous experience. So each time I've been let down, it became less likely that I'd ever try again.

What changed was that I had to alter my expectations and motivations for building it. But that in itself is an ongoing struggle. The temptation to just withdraw permanently is always there in the background and sometimes it comes further forwards.

It's funny how my E can create a false impression of my not having withdrawn; it pushes me out there, but it doesn't demand that I attach. The temptation to withdraw doesn't manifest itself the same for an E - the withdrawal is inside, whilst with the INTP it's externalized in a more literal sense, staying in, not talking to people, becoming a recluse. In my case, I just spend most of my time alone in a crowded room, when this happens. It can be harder to get support because it's harder to recognize when an ENTP has withdrawn. People say 'you've got loads of friends though, you're always out and about!' and they think everything's A-OK.

Nu-uh.
 

Totenkindly

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i am wondering a bit whether fear of being controlled is more of the INTP fear and fear of abandonment is more of the ENTP thing. Probably not that clear-cut, but I think it could boil down to things like this:

INTPs are less comfortable in their social ability, so they fear someone trying to exert control over them because they are less able to defend themselves and still remain engaged. The only way to protect the self is to vanish.

ENTPs are more comfortable in their social ability and know they can take care of themselves if someone gets a little over-excited or tries to pin them down; however, the one thing they can't control is someone who pulls away from THEM (the abandonment parT).

in fact, I wonder if that is an IxTx versus ExTx thing -- one side feels more uncomfortable socially, so fears being trapped, while the other feels competent socially and fears being dumped.
 

substitute

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Possibly Jennifer, but I tend also to think of the control issue too... I don't like to control other people with my emotions, and I don't like it when they do it to me either. I guess in my experience though this has often been the case, perhaps leaving me with a bad Fe taste in my mouth which has been difficult to not carry over to a prejudice against all emotional expression...

What's happened a lot with me is that a situation has evolved wherein I'm desired to express myself emotionally but only when it suits them. The rest of the time, my ABILITY to suppress my emotions has been relied on and very much taken for granted, as the other person has expressed theirs, clearly expecting that the situation ought to change in order to accommodate their feelings... but they've not been willing to put THEIR feelings aside to accommodate mine, as they've wanted and expected me to do. So in effect, the relationship could not have existed smoothly for more than a day if it hadn't been for my not only ability, but habit, of putting my feelings aside to affect a practical solution (practical for me in that making them happy means my headache goes away lol).

But I've sometimes just thrown out the idea to the other person, y'know, like suppose this time, YOU give way and *I* get what makes ME happy? And the response is always the same: "Oh but I can't do that. I'm not strong like you."

:dry:
 

Totenkindly

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Possibly Jennifer, but I tend also to think of the control issue too... I don't like to control other people with my emotions, and I don't like it when they do it to me either. I guess in my experience though this has often been the case, perhaps leaving me with a bad Fe taste in my mouth which has been difficult to not carry over to a prejudice against all emotional expression...

Well, read my idea as a "generalization" -- obviously people of any sort have some degree of control and abandonment fears, and they toss us back and forth. I'm just exploring whether there's a tendency to one or the other in a particular type approach.

PS. Hi sub!!! :hi:
 

substitute

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Heh, yeah hi :D

Yeah I think in general you could be onto something there...

I'm thinking of the couple of times in my life - literally, count 'em on one hand - when I've decided to see what would happen if I behaved like the other person; if I've insisted that I couldn't go against my feelings, that I needed to do what felt right to me, even if that didn't seem to make sense or didn't seem completely fair to them. And each and every time they've kicked and screamed like a bitch about how selfish, immature, unreasonable etc I was being. Even though I was just doing EXACTLY what they do, and only asking of them EXACTLY what they demanded of me 24/7.

I think sometimes when people try to push somebody to behave in a way that's uncharacteristic, they can find they get more than they bargained for... so, if your guy isn't naturally inclined to be 'intimate', I wouldn't push him if I were you - you might get a bit more intimacy than you were after - you might find that the feelings he opens up to you aren't quite what you expected... ;)
 

Jack Flak

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Fear of intimacy? meh.
Reserving intimacy for the few considered deserving? :yes:.
Fear of losing autonomy - big time.
It's not the same as ExxP flightiness.
Ditto.

For the "average" INTP, it's not fear, it's not wanting to be intimate with anyone but the best.
 

Totenkindly

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Alert the press! INTP admits existence of contexts wherein subjectivity is valid! Read all about it! :laugh:

SHHHHH!!!!

Crazy ENTPs. You'll blather EVERY secret we've got if you don't shut up.

Anyway... I'm still interested in hearing about ENFPs.
 
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