[INFJ] To Door Slam or Not to Door Slam - Relationship Advice Needed

[gandalf-white]

I had a 2.5 year friendship with this woman (I’m 41, she’s 36 and an ENTP). It had been strictly platonic, at her behest. However, see would call me her “partner in crime” and “best friend.” Over the course of our friendship I did develop feelings for her, wanted more, and expressed that several times. She always responded “I only ever want friendship,” which was fine and I put my desires aside because we had really good times together… traveled together, lived together, etc. Even slept in the same bed together when necessary.

Anyway, while in separate countries, she started “seeing” this guy (I’d seen her “date” guys before and they never seemed to last very long). I moved back to the country she was in about two weeks after this started. Our reunion was great and our mutual appreciation for each other seemed to increase.

I then went traveling on my own (extend travel, 3 months in Italy). After a couple of months, she surprised me by announcing she was coming to stay with me for a week. Upon arriving it was like old times… she told me, as she has many times in the past, “You feel like home to me.” During the catchup, she expressed things were in a rocky place with her and this guy. I should have asked more about it, but to me it seemed like they had broken up.

The second night she was there, our relationship became more… she initiated sex. We fell asleep naked and cuddling. By all accounts it was great. She said it was “hot” and “why haven’t we fucked before?” She even said she loved me while having sex.

The next day, things went sideways (partly due to AirBnB canceling on us and the stress of trying to find another place to stay on NYE). She became hyper critical of me, said she was on longer attracted to me, and that sex would never happen again. Being the stupidly insightful INFJ that I am, I asked her if she was feeling guilty (about cheating on this guy). She said she was.

Things were really tense the rest of the week. With her continuing to be rather nasty toward me and being hyper critical of just about everything I did or didn’t do.

A couple weeks later, she demands that I apologize to this other guy because he was deeply hurt by my actions (she told him about it). In my mind I was being a comfort to her, and while I’m sorry he was hurt, it’s not my responsibility. And therefore, told her I was not willing to do that. She then said she couldn’t spend any more time with me and basically cut me out of her life for 4 months.

She got back in touch with me recently (two weeks ago). Apparently, when things with this other guy were in another rough place (she caught him stringing other women along and basically beat him up). She still questioned my ethics of not apologizing to this guy. I stood my ground… perhaps too stubborn?

Questions:

Should I have apologized to this guy? Was I wrong to sleep with her? Should I simply cut her out of my life (I find this really difficult as I love her dearly)? Or is the healthy thing to remain friends, but keep her at arms length for my own well being?

 

[Sacrophagus]

First of all, let's start by you.

Why would you keep her around if she didn't want the same thing?

She used you for everything she wanted just to give you the "I feel home" bullshit.
Don't you think there's another woman worthy of that home? A woman who actually likes you the way you like her? Yeah, that's the part of the problem you own in here. You, being stuck on this single woman while there are plenty out there. If you don't know that yet, It's time you get out.

Now, to her part of the problem.


Don't you dare apologize.

Sex is initiated by two people. It was consensual. If she's feeling guilty, that's her fucking fault. She should stop being a spoiled child, even though, after all, you disciplined her to act that way by being her go-to person for everything free of charge. She's using you in any way she wants since she know that you desire her. It's time to stop.

Tell her "No one forced you to have sex. If you cheated, own your shit instead of acting like a dumb victim.

Also, consider yourself out of my life. "

And never look back again.

Be sorry for that guy who can't see through her. She's another one's mess now.

It's time to move on, man.



Good luck.

 

[gandalf-white]

First of all, let's start by you.

Why would you keep her around if she didn't want the same thing?

She used you for everything she wanted just to give you the "I feel home" bullshit.
Don't you think there's another woman worthy of that home? A woman who actually likes you the way you like her? Yeah, that's the part of the problem you own in here. You, being stuck on this single woman while there are plenty out there. If you don't know that yet, It's time you get out.

Now, to her part of the problem.


Don't you dare apologize.

Sex is initiated by two people. It was consensual. If she's feeling guilty, that's her fucking fault. She should stop being a spoiled child, even though, after all, you disciplined her to act that way by being her go-to person for everything free of charge. She's using you in any way she wants since she know that you desire her. It's time to stop.

Tell her "No one forced you to have sex. If you cheated, own your shit instead of acting like a dumb victim.

Also, consider yourself out of my life. "

And never look back again.

Be sorry for that guy who can't see through her. She's another one's mess now.

It's time to move on, man.



Good luck.

Thanks, man. I really needed to hear that. Your words, more-or-less, confirm what's been in my mind. It really helps to hear this reflected back. Thanks for taking the time to do so!

 

[Fidelia]

Infjs don't click with that many people in a way that is satisfying to them and we are also reluctant to cut people out of our lives lightly. We see things from multiple perspectives of other people but find it harder to really know how we feel quickly.

Objectively though, this woman acted manipulatively, both in the friendship and later when she initiated sex. She is avoiding owning what she did. You were foolish to go for it too, but you don't owe an apology to the other guy. She is also not a kid. Past behaviour is a good indicator of what you can expect in the furure.

It will be hard but I think you need to quit her cold turkey because if you don't, you'll find it hard to hold the line and she'll continue to manipulate. If she'd cheat on him, she'd cheat on you too.

I've found for me that it's hard to voluntarily separate myself from someone I've trusted in the past even if I recognize they're not acting in my best interests now. I think infjs need a chance for those feelings to cool down to be able to see things objectively. Extended distance is the only way to do that.

 

[Sacrophagus]

Infjs don't click with that many people in a way that is satisfying to them and we are also reluctant to cut people out of our lives lightly.

I've found for me that it's hard to voluntarily separate myself from someone I've trusted in the past even if I recognize they're not acting in my best interests now.

An INFJ friend of mine stated today something that agrees with the aforementioned, and I said :
"Even if I told you with every fiber of my being that I love you, if you are beyond salvation, I will force my hand through my chest, extract that scorching and credulous heart, and squeeze it until all desire of you is undone. You will remain but a fleeting memory of the past, bygone is your existence with the sands of time."


Very odd indeed. It wouldn't matter to me if she's the One, or the only One remaining on Earth. Between myself and I- I will just express my gratitude and move on.
It saddens me to witness some INFJs waiting for other people to change or trying to fix them at the expense of their own being.

There are better endeavors that should require our undivided attention than entertaining the drama of anyone.

 

[gandalf-white]

Infjs don't click with that many people in a way that is satisfying to them and we are also reluctant to cut people out of our lives lightly. We see things from multiple perspectives of other people but find it harder to really know how we feel quickly.

Objectively though, this woman acted manipulatively, both in the friendship and later when she initiated sex. She is avoiding owning what she did. You were foolish to go for it too, but you don't owe an apology to the other guy. She is also not a kud. Past behaviour is a good indicator of what you can expect in the furure.

It will be hard but I think you need to quit her cold turkey because if you don't, you'll find it hard to hold the line and she'll continue to manipulate. If she'd cheat on him, she'd cheat on you too.

I've found for me that it's hard to voluntarily separate myself from someone I've trusted in the past even if I recognize they're not acting in my best interests now. I think infjs need a chance for those feelings to cool down to be able to see things objectively. Extended distance is the only way to do that.

I was hoping you'd respond, fidelia. I read some of your other posts and found them very insightful. I only recently found out I'm an INFJ, so still processing these cognitive functions and how they work.

I share the same struggle of cutting someone off who I've trusted in the past. But I am now recognising this may be best for me now... i.e., going cold turkey. And I've often said to others that past behavior is an indication of future behavior, although I do believe people can change. And the idealistic part of me wants/hopes that people do change.

I do see my actions as foolish in this. And doing my best to learn everything I can from it.

Thanks again for responding, fidelia.

 

[gandalf-white]

"Even if I told you with every fiber of my being that I love you, if you are beyond salvation, I will force my hand through my chest, extract that scorching and credulous heart, and squeeze it until all desire of you is undone. You will remain but a fleeting memory of the past, bygone is your existence with the sands of time."

Well said, wise words and ones I will take to heart.

Very odd indeed. It wouldn't matter to me if she's the One, or the only One remaining on Earth. Between myself and I- I will just express my gratitude and move on.
It saddens me to witness some INFJs waiting for other people to change or trying to fix them at the expense of their own being.

There are better endeavors that should require our undivided attention than entertaining the drama of anyone.

More-or-less this was my approach when last speaking with her. I expressed gratitude for being in my life, but that I would not tolerate the guilt-tripping and lack of loyalty. Things became far too one-sided. I am moving on...

 

[Fidelia]

I think we are all foolish when it comes to people we care about. Certainly I've done things that I don't remotely rationally agree with if I were to advise myself. Emotions will override what we know rationally most of the time. I also think that INFJs take awhile for their feelings to catch up with their rational selves. Kind of like a clay oven or something heating up. But once we care about someone like that and have given them clearance through a lot of the inner gates, it takes awhile for those feelings to cool down either.


I also think there's something kind of exciting about Ne dom people in some regards, because they have a kind of joyfulness and spontaneity and complement our type of intuition in a way that's really appealing and brings us outside of ourselves. On the other hand, it seems to me that they almost have to experience something or try ideas on like clothes before they know what they really are or where they stand on things and something that is absolutely true for them one day might not be down the road. There is a constant state of questioning and doubt and trying things out and needing to be free. That can be really jarring sometimes to me. I think also with ENTPs there's an element of making everything a personal game, whether other people know it or not. That can be done in philanthropic ways that result in a good outcome for everyone involved, or it can be done in self-interested ways, where you may not know it, but the person is making sure that things work out to their advantage, even if it's done very charmingly. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, is that I can see what the appeal is, but I can also see where those differences can become really problematic. Of course not everything is type related either, and character is a big deal. I actually think most type combinations can work out, depending on the level of maturity of both individuals. Type is rarely the main issue, but character and maturity matters a lot, and that's what seems to maybe be the issue here with her. I don't think she was necessarily just playing you by saying you felt like home to her, but it also doesn't mean that it is an expression of her longterm love or constancy.

 

[gandalf-white]

I think we are all foolish when it comes to people we care about. Certainly I've done things that I don't remotely rationally agree with if I were to advise myself. Emotions will override what we know rationally most of the time. I also think that INFJs take awhile for their feelings to catch up with their rational selves. Kind of like a clay oven or something heating up. But once we care about someone like that and have given them clearance through a lot of the inner gates, it takes awhile for those feelings to cool down either.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me. Realising what I feel takes time, for sure. Putting words to what I feel takes even longer... probably why I feel most comfortable with writing such things.

I also think there's something kind of exciting about Ne dom people in some regards, because they have a kind of joyfulness and spontaneity and complement our type of intuition in a way that's really appealing and brings us outside of ourselves. On the other hand, it seems to me that they almost have to experience something or try ideas on like clothes before they know what they really are or where they stand on things and something that is absolutely true for them one day might not be down the road. There is a constant state of questioning and doubt and trying things out and needing to be free. That can be really jarring sometimes to me.

This also rings true to me. And I've known a few Ne dom people. Mostly friends, who I find inspire my creativity in some way. I've come to appreciate this constant state of questioning though because of my love for philosophy and comfort with uncertainty (holding multiple perspectives at once). And it seems Ne doms appreciate my calmness in the face of such uncertainty. So it seems to go both ways, in terms of complementing each others intuitive cognition.

I think also with ENTPs there's an element of making everything a personal game, whether other people know it or not. That can be done in philanthropic ways that result in a good outcome for everyone involved, or it can be done in self-interested ways, where you may not know it, but the person is making sure that things work out to their advantage, even if it's done very charmingly. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, is that I can see what the appeal is, but I can also see where those differences can become really problematic.

True, indeed. With ENTPs it seems they are either sincere or insincere in their personal game. Through this encounter, I've learned to call out the bullshit more when I see it, rather than let it slide. This personal game of theirs often includes lies and insincerity. My role in this game, as far as I can tell, is to call the bullshit when I see it. The more I've done this with ENTPs the more they seem to appreciate me, which as I've learned is a deep longing of the INFJ (being appreciated).

Of course not everything is type related either, and character is a big deal. I actually think most type combinations can work out, depending on the level of maturity of both individuals. Type is rarely the main issue, but character and maturity matters a lot, and that's what seems to maybe be the issue here with her. I don't think she was necessarily just playing you by saying you felt like home to her, but it also doesn't mean that it is an expression of her longterm love or constancy.

And this is where your wisdom, and reading between the lines, shines though it all: maturity is probably the key issue here. With the women in question here, I also expressed, in a non-projecting manner, that maturity was at play (i.e., in the context of a discussion/argument about commitment and friendship where things seemed very one-sided and I was attempting to create distance, I said to her: "Perhaps, I'm not mature enough for this 'best friend' thing?"). And I think you're absolutely right about her feelings of home not necessarily being an expression of longterm love or constancy. Although, she did tell me (about a year ago) that "My greatest fear is you will disappear, when you finally realise I'll never feel the same way about you." But perhaps this is again the ENTP game. Fuck knows. And right now, I struggling to even care, despite caring deeply about her.

 

[Fidelia]

You have the advantage of knowing other Ne doms and how they function and you know people outside of the context of a romantic liason, which is definitely useful. Also that you can see pretty clearly what's going on in the big picture. And you have the advantage too of being old enough to understand your own self and how you operate. I see this decision less like a doorslam , and more like a choice to move on, recognizing that you should be with someone who respects you and treats you well and who knows what they want (whether it is in friendship or in romance).

I also think maybe that male/female friendships, if they have enough juice to carry them into emotionally intimate territory, have a limited shelf life before they either need to end or else they become romantic. I mean, I think it's not impossible to be friends, but since we can't freeze any connection at the ideal level of intimacy, we are always either drifting apart or becoming closer. With men especially, perhaps because there are not as many cultural ways for them to have emotionally intimate friendships generally, you cannot become too close before it starts to feel relationshippy. I've also found that women tend to carry on friendships with people they would never consider dating, while men in general do not. Men seem to have a wider scope of who they could consider attractive and while they may not actively pursue it, it seems to me that rarely do friendships develop with women whom they truly find unappealing. (Obviously these are broad generalizations). Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I think sometimes women are unaware of the difference in approaches, and truly enjoy that kind of closeness with someone of the opposite sex without actually being romantically interested. In other cases, they are aware, but it's nice to have someone who they have history and closeness with and who finds them attractive, but they still have their options open. But even if everyone is trying their hardest to be up front with their feelings and is not taking advantage of having a pseudo partner at their beck and call, I think that emotional intimacy generally does eventually result in wanting to be close in every sense to that person. I think I underestimated the power of that in the past, figuring that if we talked about not dating, or if we lived in different places, we could maybe overcome that whole crossroads of needing to start dating or else not see each other much. In my experience, it rarely works.


There may be a ton of people here that claim they are able to maintain that, and perhaps they are. But I would also guess that the amount of emotional intimacy and time spent together on a regular basis in that friendship is limited.