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[ENFP] ENFP Old Souls??

sculpting

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You can be directive all you want, but an ENFP is motivated by Fi--so the ENFP is ultimately going to reject any directives which do not gel with her/his internal reasoning(personal values).

(Of course, I'm talking about adults here, not children, who are, theoretically, not fully differentiated. People under a certain age may not have developed strong preferences yet.)

When an ENFP does actually follow directives, that means that the ENFP found a personal reason for doing it.

Even if you have legitimate authority over an ENFP (boss, parent, legal authority, etc.), the only reason they will follow any of your directives is if they personally see value in following them.

.

Wonka what if you have an enfp in a coorporate environment where they must comply even if it violates a sense of Fi idealism?

For me-this translates as I must do something I am directed to, not unethical, just stupid-however I can NeTe see the long term poor strategic, logistic, and operational implications of the choice. I can then NeFi see how it will cause stress, sufferring and unhappiness in others. So I MUST do the thing, yet I know it will perpetuate unhappiness.

Another ENFP I work with has my same job and we are both stuck at this junction. We must comply yet Fi screams. We end up being disheartened, sluggish and apathetic. "why do anything above and beyond the absolute required to reduce suffering, when we just did something massive that will increase suffering.

On the converse-I posted a thread about "whiny, apathetic ISTJs" awhile back. In this situation it is TeFi in reverse. They can clearly see the Te operational stupidity of said choice, and they respond with a sense of childlike Fi remorse. "why attempt anything efficient, when you never listen to what I say in the first place" They will not respond openly but become passive aggressive and build walls out of regulations.

Most of the decision makers are TiFe and utterly lack the ability to understand the strategic, operational impacts, let alone the human impacts of the choices they make.

This innate miscommunication forms the basis of an organizational war. Interesting to watch.

And yes, I have always been told I have an old soul. Even as young as three, strangers would approach my mom and grandmother and say this.
 

Wonkavision

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Wonka what if you have an enfp in a coorporate environment where they must comply even if it violates a sense of Fi idealism?

The ENFP would either find a way to live with the decision, or defile her/his conscience, I guess.

ENFPs are Dominant Ne, not Dominant Fi----so they're very flexible and adaptable, aren't they?

I know I am.

I can often find ways to reconcile seemingly conflicting ideas.

When I can't find a way, I either refuse to comply, or I do comply and end up defiling my conscience.

In the long run, I can't stand having a bad conscience, so I am usually willing to rebel and face the consequences, rather than comply with something I'm against.
 

Moiety

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The ENFP would either find a way to live with the decision, or defile her/his conscience, I guess.

ENFPs are Dominant Ne, not Dominant Fi----so they're very flexible and adaptable, aren't they?

I know I am.

I can often find ways to reconcile seemingly conflicting ideas.

When I can't find a way, I either refuse to comply, or I do comply and end up defiling my conscience.

In the long run, I can't stand having a bad conscience, so I am usually willing to rebel and face the consequences, rather than comply with something I'm against.

This is why I disagree that developing Fi is necessarily the best way for an ENFP to mature. I think developing Te is good as well for two reasons : it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative, and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed.

In extreme cases Fi will always win. But there's a spectrum.

Besides...healthy Te isn't in direct opposition to Fi. Healthy Te isn't raw, it's tempered. Good leaders are good because they curb their followers' Fi elegantly. They don't offend anyone's values.
 

Wonkavision

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This is why I disagree that developing Fi is necessarily the best way for an ENFP to mature. I think developing Te is good as well for two reasons : it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative, and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed.

In extreme cases Fi will always win. But there's a spectrum.

Besides...healthy Te isn't in direct opposition to Fi. Healthy Te isn't raw, it's tempered. Good leaders are good because they curb their followers' Fi elegantly. They don't offend anyone's values.

Really?

How could Te possibly help an ENFP to decide what to do in an ethical dilemma?


You said:

it helps to deal with this kind of dilemma, by presenting an alternative

Ne would present alternatives, but I don't see how Te would do that.

And you said:

and it gives you more control over yourself when stressed

Te isn't concerned about the self at all.

It focuses outwardly, on other people and things.


Fi would give you control over yourself.



(I am, of course, talking about ENFPs here--The other types would use different functions.)

I honestly don't know where you are getting your ideas about functions, but I'm basing mine on Personality Type: An Owner's Manual, by Lenore Thomson, and from several sites on the internet.

I can provide links if you're interested.
 

SillySapienne

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I would like to preface the following by stating I know incredibly little about the functions, but...

Fi is my guiding light, my inner force.

Ne is my "eyes" so to speak.

And Te helps me wade through the shit.

Make sense?
 

Moiety

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Really?

How could Te possibly help an ENFP to decide what to do in an ethical dilemma?

By introducing a certain level of "The ends sometimes justify the means" into the equation. Assuming Fi is always the best course of action is assuming our own values are the very best way to deal with the world at all times. They aren't. We are all flawed. Thinking in terms of the context, learning to forgo personal bias is sometimes beneficial to the group, and in the long run beneficial to us personally because of that.


Ne would present alternatives, but I don't see how Te would do that.

I meant an alternative to pure Fi. An alternative way to deal with the same problem. It's pretty close-minded to think our values are the very best or fairest way to deal with the world. Te helps to temper our own biases a bit.

Fe is yet an another alternative to deal with the problem. But I advise against it simply because the very issues arise from the fact there is ethical bias at play (and Fe would just be another form of ethical bias). Enter logic and impartiality. Not always the best option, but sometimes the lesser of two evils.


Te isn't concerned about the self at all.

It focuses outwardly, on other people and things.


Fi would give you control over yourself.

Tertiary Te kicks in when we are stressed. Tertiary functions tend to be used in an unhealthy way when we are young. But as we mature, we learn to use them in a healthier manner. So, by being more at ease with sometimes using Te....progressively being more willing to do so and doing it in a more magnanimous way towards others...you start to become more at peace with it's use because it's helping you balancing out your Fi values.

Very crude Te usage in a young ENFP is the bad side of Te. There is a good side though, which is impartiality and working towards a goal. Trying to be more that way is sure to help you be less of immature ENFP that simply goes "Fuck off!" when in stress. Rationality evens out irrationality. Balance.


I honestly don't know where you are getting your ideas about functions, but I'm basing mine on Personality Type: An Owner's Manual, by Lenore Thomson, and from several sites on the internet.

On what I've read on these forums. And on logic. I don't like to take the word of any one author in particular.


Also, Te can look at Fi for motivation. Like...Fi dictates the goals and Te enacts the plan to reach said goals. They don't have to necessarily be in direct opposition.
 

Chunes

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Any old souls here, anyone :D? I'm sorry if this topic was done before. I know I have an old soul. It's hard for an old soul to live in a young soul world.

soleil, thanks so much for this topic. I did very much so enjoy reading your topic. I have it on fairly good authority that I am an old soul. It is frustrating being an old soul in a young soul world, at times, but boy do the sparks fly when you find another old soul!

Otherwise, yep, it's sort of like a waiting game while I wait for the rest of my soul to recombine. :) That doesn't mean we should eschew our responsibility to continue making decisions, as being an old soul in a young soul world is an experience intended for all of us. But you know you're old-hat when you just can't feel anything but love for all humans, old and youngling alike, young if only for their inexperience. :D
 

Wonkavision

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On what I've read on these forums. And on logic. I don't like to take the word of any one author in particular.

Ok, but I don't understand your conception of how functions work---or why you seem to think that developing inferior functions is equally important as developing the secondary function.

I'm not saying that Lenore Thomson or the other sources I'm drawing from are unquestionably correct---but I do have some tangible sources, and what they say makes sense to me.

Is there anything you can point me to so I can understand your point of view?

Do you have any sources?

I'm having difficulty following your explanations.
 

SillySapienne

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Te is the facilitator of my ability to critically think.

Te is a processing mechanism.

Fi is a deeply seated intuition.

Te helps me explain my Fi, make sense?

Sorry at work.

Will try to explain later.
 

Wonkavision

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Rationality evens out irrationality. Balance.

Exactly the reason for developing the secondary function.

T and F are rational.

S and N are irrational.

If your dominant function is T or F, you need S or N to balance it.

And if your dominant function is S or N, you need T or F to balance it.

Maybe that's why it would seem like Te would be a good balance for the ENFPs dominant Ne---but wait a second.....

You want to be balanced on introversion/extraversion as well, don't you?

So, if your dominant function is introverted, you need the balancing influence of a secondary function that's extraverted.

And if your dominant function is extraverted, you need the balancing influence of a secondary function that's introverted.


It's true that you will develop your inferior functions as go though life, because you will be faced with situations which force you to use them.

But in order to function with maximum efficiency and integrity, you will need to rely most heavily on a union between your dominant and secondary functions.

It's too tempting to stay in extraverted mode all the time if you're an extravert, and in introverted mode all the time if youre an introvert.

A conscious effort to develop introversion is critical for extraverts.
And a conscious effort to develop extraversion is critical for introverts.

And any attempt to develop your inferior functions to the level of your dominant and secondary will fail.

Even if you could do it, you would just lack integrity, and be "all over the place."

When under stress, you may temporarily alleviate anxiety by relying on your tertiary function, but you'll "lose yourself" in the process.

Again---I'm not saying this is the Gospel Truth, but it is actually based on what I've learned from some tangible sources, and it makes sense to me.


I'm just providing information.

But you can always take it or leave it.

In the end, it's all up to you. Best of luck. :)
 

Moiety

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Ok, but I don't understand your conception of how functions work---or why you seem to think that developing inferior functions is equally important as developing the secondary function.

Well maybe it's because my Fi is practically the same strentgh as my Ne. But no actually...it just makes sense to me to work on our achilles heels if possible. I'm not proposing living in your shadow and being miserable. Just acknowledging the other side at times. Example..."oh my...I love my Ne! So many wonderful opportunities. I wanna do this my way". But there are a slew of situations in life where there is a tried and tested method that is common knowledge (Si) and we will always shun it for adventure or defiance's sake. As you probably know, that's not always the best course of action.

And what exactly do you mean by my conception of how functions work?

I'm not saying that Lenore Thomson or the other sources I'm drawing from are unquestionably correct---but I do have some tangible sources, and what they say makes sense to me.

I haven't read any books on the subject, but the way I see it, if they are no Myers or Briggs, their thoughts on the subject aren't any more tangible than my own personal experience.

Then there is subjectivity. Ok, work on your Fi. Forget about Te. You can become the best version of yourself...but if you get stressed you will still become the worse version of yourself since your Te hasn't been developed.

If I work on my Te I'm simply balancing stuff out. They are two ways to look at it and I don't see why one would necessarily be better than the other, objectively speaking. My opinion though is that I would think learning to become better when under stress is paramount. Oh, yeah, I'm assuming one always uses Te when under stress. If that weren't the case, then it would seem logical for it to be pretty simple to just use Ne and Fi the whole time.


Is there anything you can point me to so I can understand your point of view?

Do you have any sources?

I'm having difficulty following your explanations.

If you could pinpoint what parts of my reasoning make no sense to you, I would gladly provide further explanation. But I'm afraid that my views are basically my way of trying to make sense out of the whole thing by myself, pretty much. I'm not claiming to be right, here. In fact I don't even think there is a right and wrong here. It really only depends on what exactly you are trying to achieve.
 

Wonkavision

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I'm afraid that my views are basically my way of trying to make sense out of the whole thing by myself, pretty much.

That's why it's so hard to follow, and why I just can't bother with it anymore.

Good luck on your journey.

I have other things to do.
 

Moiety

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Exactly the reason for developing the secondary function.

T and F are rational.

S and N are irrational.

I would say S and N are arational as opposed to irrational. It's how we take in the information. T and F make judgements based on that info, so yeah in that sense they are both rational. There's a reasoning. But in the part you quoted, I meant rational as in logical. F is inherently more biased than T is it not? We all have a bit of both of course.

If your dominant function is T or F, you need S or N to balance it.

And if your dominant function is S or N, you need T or F to balance it.

Well...your dominant function's strength will always be bigger than that of your secondary function. But I don't know if I necessarily agree with that... a Se dominant can still try and achieve balance by using Ni, for example. Harder of course.

Maybe that's why it would seem like Te would be a good balance for the ENFPs dominant Ne---but wait a second.....

You want to be balanced on introversion/extraversion as well, don't you?

Do I? lol

So, if your dominant function is introverted, you need the balancing influence of a secondary function that's extraverted.

And if your dominant function is extraverted, you need the balancing influence of a secondary function that's introverted.

That is true yes. But your top two functions aren't the sole definers of your personality. Is an ENFP a fool for trying to force himself to be more of a planner and more methodical? Or is he achieving balance while doing so (life is all about trying different approaches isn't it?)?

It's true that you will develop your inferior functions as go though life, because you will be faced with situations which force you to use them.

But in order to function with maximum efficiency and integrity, you will need to rely most heavily on a union between your dominant and secondary functions.

I don't disagree that they are the two most important functions. I mean...they come naturally to us. But again...there's probably a reason why older versions of ourselves (with developed inferior functions) are considered more mature than us wouldn't you agree?



And any attempt to develop your inferior functions to the level of your dominant and secondary will fail.

Agreed. I did not mean to imply that that would ever be possible.


When under stress, you may temporarily alleviate anxiety by relying on your tertiary function, but you'll "lose yourself" in the process.

Ah...but what if you learned to be at peace with that side of you more often? What if you indulged in healthy use of Te and learned to hone that side of you?


Again---I'm not saying this is the Gospel Truth, but it is actually based on what I've learned from some tangible sources, and it makes sense to me.


I'm just providing information.

But you can always take it or leave it.

In the end, it's all up to you. Best of luck. :)


lol, I'm providing information myself. My jaded Ti tells me to be weary of anyone claiming to know about a certain topic unless I can see it. So I challenge everything. Even what Myers or Briggs would have to say on the subject. And enough with the take it or leave it attitude. Brainstorming, man :)


EDIT :

That's why it's so hard to follow, and why I just can't bother with it anymore.

Good luck on your journey.

I have other things to do.

:huh:

Keep honing that Fi.
 
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