[NF] When ENFPs and INFJs look alike

[OrangeAppled]

I have a friend who tests and identifies as INFJ. I think it is a correct typing, except that she seems ENFPish at times. It reminds me of how I can relate a lot to ENFJs at times; although I struggle to see ENFJs and INFPs ever looking alike, I suppose it could happen if it was an enneagram type common to both or more common for the Jungian type they aren't.

So this person comes across as whimsical, spontaneous, social, goofy, etc. But I strongly get the feeling this is an image, and she certainly seems like a 4w3. This is similar to how ESFJs can be the "ENFPs of the people". There are free spirit qualities associated with ENFPs that are idealized for women, and xxFJ women tend to pick a socially admired image. This INFJ also practically has a fetish for ENTPs...

Some points to consider for this case:

- Admitted to being more aware of other people's emotions and adapting to them than her own emotions. Seems to signal Fe....or does it signal extroversion?

- Has hosting tendencies, seemingly motivated to build rapport and value with others. I don't see genuine ENFPs enjoying playing host or serving people in this way. Not saying xxFPs don't ever do that. My ESFP sister likes to plan and host parties, but she enjoys the creative aspects of putting it together (ie cooking and decorating) and the entertainment of the actual experience. She doesn't seem to want to wait on people, and the fun of it all seems to surpass any motive of creating rapport.

- Highly aware of social protocol and appropriateness, although like many NFJs, doesn't particularly like tradition or rules. But ENFPs can have a sense of dynamics at play and how to, er, influence them. This is where Fe and Ne can be hard to differentiate.

- Seems more bothered by differences in tastes than is typical of ENFPs. If someone doesn't like something she is enthusiastic about, she gets a bit sad. NFPs don't seem to feel any damper on their enthusiasm if someone doesn't share it.

- Very talkative. Always down for social stuff. Doesn't have the typical calm, composed enegry of a Ni-dom. Scattered. Again though, some of this seems like it could be deliberate, if you know what I mean.

- I just don't see Fi. I consider myself to be good at spotting Fi.

- More of a performer and influencer than a creator. I don't see personal creation as a drive. This seems Fe over Fi to me.

- Doesn't have the arrogant, condescending "I know what's best for people" vibe that INFJs often display :X. BUT those are usually male INFJs, IME.

- Taking Jung's pure types alone, I'd have trouble pegging her as Ni-dom. I'd go with Ne-dom. I don't see a focused, visionary style of intuition, but my experience also tells me Ni is often hidden (much as I don't immediately register as a Feeling type in person). She is definitely not a misunderstood crank. But the influence of Fe could make all the difference here. Is this Ni-Fe mimicking Ne because of a social advantage and focus on a larger, long-term goal?

This is a case study of sorts. Personal experiences of confusion with these types is encouraged!

 

[entropie]

lesdom, sure no male topic

 

[Metis]

Sounds kind of like me. I'm thinking that not everyone is a poster child for type theory. Some people fit a type and make it seem valid, and some people are best off not even typing themselves.

Does she have a strong sense of who she is? People can manipulate themselves into acting like who they think they are or acting like who others treat them as though they were.

I think a nice, long retreat in solitude would do me some good, but I would probably find myself daydreaming a lot about interacting with other people, rather than reflecting more philosophically and learning more about myself. However, it would probably do me some good if I could get myself to do that. Maybe, like me, your friend isn't that solid on identity and is influenced easily.

 

[Starry]

I'm kinda jumping in and out today and haven't read the OP as thoroughly as I should but thought I would throw out as I'm sure you know that eNFJ 6w5 sx's can look so much like NFPs. For the life of me though I can't figure out where the positive outlook feel comes from...I can't account for it and I have tried. The volatility that gives them a Pe feel - yes. positive outlook feel...no. (unless a strong 2 fix? idk.)

 

[five sounds]

I'm kinda jumping in and out today and haven't read the OP as thoroughly as I should but thought I would throw out as I'm sure you know that eNFJ 6w5 sx's can look so much like NFPs. For the life of me though I can't figure out where the positive outlook feel comes from...I can't account for it and I have tried. The volatility that gives them a Pe feel - yes. positive outlook feel...no. (unless a strong 2 fix? idk.)

I feel like the positive outlook thing that is probably not actual positive outlook could be Fe. Like the way that Ne Fi is positive as a result of seeing multiple possibilities but being sure of your "positive intentions" for them, Ni Fe might appear positive by nature of seeing a singular vision, but being more aware of how to maneuver in a pleasant way when necessary.

I also think both types have an 'alternative' vibe. I mean most enfps are a little dark and weird too. So their positivity is tempered maybe in a similar way that infjs' is projected.

 

[Starry]

I feel like the positive outlook thing that is probably not actual positive outlook could be Fe. Like the way that Ne Fi is positive as a result of seeing multiple possibilities but being sure of your "positive intentions" for them, Ni Fe might appear positive by nature of seeing a singular vision, but being more aware of how to maneuver in a pleasant way when necessary.

I also think both types have an 'alternative' vibe. I mean most enfps are a little dark and weird too. So their positivity is tempered maybe in a similar way that infjs' is projected.

Whoops yes...I should have been more clear. I need to come to terms with the fact that when I write ">something< feel"... that only means it's an impostor in my mind alone. Likewise, I shouldn't have mentioned e2 and only did so because I'm high on drugs right now. <-Okay, no. I just was thinking and writing 'out loud'.

I don't think it is actually positive outlook as it is defined...but there's an optimism when it comes to the eNFJ 6w5 sx...which will most likely be the sx/so...that I can't account for with Fe alone. I don't see this optimism in the other stacks...but I *do* see the optimism in the eNTJs...so this positive outlook impostor seems to work with Te at 6w5 sx as well.

So yah, is this positive outlook? no. Is this a healthy expression of positivity and optimism? I think it certainly can be...perhaps stemming from the 6w5 sx's sense they have more command over their existence. Perhaps they have proven to themselves over time that they will be strong enough to attack a crisis head on or something and overcome so that frees them up to looking forward to a happy and abundant future idk. But I've seen some delusional looking optimism here too so yah. Is any of this relevant to the thread? Doubtful ha.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I will try to come back and post because I have encountered people who strangely enough, ENFP and INFJ seem plausible, although in this case, I'm leaning towards a Fi person who has been influenced in certain social situations to behave as their ESFJ mother taught them. There is also a complex way that Ni and Ne can look alike when someone is really creative and also embraces the speculative realms like conspiracy theory. It can be hard to get a take on how their thinking and process is focused.

 

[Pionart]

I think Nardi's research suggests that these two types are very similar in terms of brain activity.

Also, could be an ambivert.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Both have identical stack order, just reversed directions. Ni Fe Ti Se vs Ne Fi Te Si.

I have been toying with the idea for some time we are born with the stack, but the directions are based upon environmental factors. It goes along with the idea of mine that the shadow exists for every function, just not consciously unless we develop it.

So ENFPs have all the traits of the INFJ, but buried in their mind. And, depending on how much they developed it, might actually be a ENFP with a N that has a substantial Ni side and a F a substantial Fe side.

As I have explored the idea, I have come to the idea that our inferior function will never be strong and worth developing too much, as opposed to integrating the shadow of the Dom and Aux.

My ENFP friend is much like that. She is all ENFP and Ne dom. She is full of quirks and such typical of ENFPs, but she also gets occasional intuition that is more Ni like. It does not seem conscious much. And while she is all Fi, she also has very powerful but unconscious Fe. She can engage in a very Fe like manner, but it isn't comfortable to her at all. She is extremely social, but also has odd social anxiety.

NFJs are counseled to turn Fe inward and focus on self as much as others as they get older. It becomes an almost Fi like quest to sit with and explore feelings. Having struggled through this effort, it is awkward and painful, but transformative.

Likewise NFPs are counseled as they get older, to try to turn Fi outward, making it more Fe like.

So, perhaps some people will have a more developed shadow, thereby confusing how they appear to others.

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]
I have seen that idea expressd in various forms*, and even though the explanations vary a bit, I think the essence of it is true. This is especially true when we recognize that functions are not literal thought process, but ego types.

Two examples are Lenore Thompson's function stack which she likens to a lasagna, which is a confusing metaphor for me. Basically the top layers are the dom and aux, and the bottom layers are the tertiary and inferior (as Jung describes the tertiary as fused to an inferior character, although I don't think he calls it the tertiary; would have to double check on that). The so-called shadow functions or what some say we "don't use" are actually more easily and consciously accessed than the tertiary and inferior, which we consciously reject and which slips out of us without us seeing it or owning it as ourselves. In this sense, the tertiary and inferior characterize us more (often negatively), but we identify with them least, as they are the least conscious. The skills and attitudes associated with our tert-inferior are the ones we may cultivate least and consciously dismiss.

Not so with the shadow functions.... these are far less threatening to our ego and we may develop skills or take on attitudes associated with them when we deal with areas that are outside our preferred functions. An example of this may be an INTJ using Fe-like skills socially, because it's less threatening to their Te preference than other forms of extroverting (ie Se) or feeling (Fi and it's too intense authenticity). This doesn't mean Fe associated gushiness, but recognizing and applying certain social protocol (which might seem stiff and cool, but also work in, say, a business situation). You could call this a mimic of Fe, as a way to meet Te goals and a realization of the logical utility of some Fe associated skills and attitudes.
I also see Ne types do this with Se a lot. They may engage in a lot of behavior associated with the hedonism of Se types.

Another example would be NFJs reverting to Fi like attitudes when they find it necessary to challenge status quo. And NFPs frequently engage in perspective shifting and offer insights that people would associate with Ni.
Consciously, they reject the opposite attitude of their function, but unconsciously, they use it a lot and because it's not very threatening to the ego, they often don't identify it as "not me" and rather see it as a simple alternative to their usual thinking.

Socionics describes this as basically being a preference for a function-attitude and sometimes engaging in the different attitude because it IS non-threatening, but it's also felt as irrelevant and this consciously rejected. In other words, if you are NeFi, why do NiFe? It's irrelevant for you. BUT, you may be quite comfortable the NiFe mentality and when elements of it pop up in yourself, you don't feel a need to suppress it or disown it as with the inferiors.

These models are less linear than the typical stackings, and less rigid, IMO. They also avoid what I think is a ridiculous tendency to type people by the inferiors (because of that awful tandem theory). It stays truer to Jung's way of categorizing functions (ie because they are introverted rationals, Ti and Fi dom share many similarities and are less opposites to eachother than to Je; but both being Feeling, Fi and Fe also have some commonalities, and Jung often refers to functions without attitudes. This makes Te the true opposing force to Fi, not a complementary function).

So these various and similar theories would give, as an example, an ENFP the following stack:
Ne Fi - consciously embraced, experienced as self, preferred way of being/seeing/thinking
Se Ti - unconscious, but not threatening or rejected, may turn to as alternatives to preferred style when dealing with areas which call for something else, and to avoid the far more threatening inferior
Fe Ni - consciously rejected as redundant and lesser than preferred style, but unconsciously "used" at times as extentions of the dom/aux
Te Si - consciously rejected, unconsciously can come out strongly and perhaps childlike, experienced as "not myself", its negative attitudes are often projected onto others

So back to INFJs looking ENFP in ways....I feel like a Ne persona is almost like a Fe social strategy for them at times.

This is also what makes me think I am INTP sometimes, because my Fe is so crappy....but then what could be said positively about Te for me

 

[meowington]

The points you addressed are remarkably accurate for myself.

- Admitted to being more aware of other people's emotions and adapting to them than her own emotions. Seems to signal Fe....or does it signal extroversion?

Fe

but a bit different from Fe-dom's, cause it gets processed by Ni.

- Has hosting tendencies

Check

- Highly aware of social protocol and appropriateness, although like many NFJs, doesn't particularly like tradition or rules.

Check, Check

- If someone doesn't like something she is enthusiastic about, she gets a bit sad.

Check

- Very talkative. Always down for social stuff. Doesn't have the typical calm, composed enegry of a Ni-dom.

Check, Check
Depends a lot on the context. I'm very talkative with maximum 4-5 people, including hosting tendencies you mentioned. With more people I'm more a typical introvert.

- I just don't see Fi. I consider myself to be good at spotting Fi.

Check

- More of a performer and influencer than a creator. I don't see personal creation as a drive. This seems Fe over Fi to me.

In social settings yes. When I'm on my own, I really do like creating (programming, music, ...).

- Doesn't have the arrogant, condescending "I know what's best for people" vibe that INFJs often display :X. BUT those are usually male INFJs, IME.

We do know what's best for people. People just don't realize. Take Hitler for instance, ...

- Taking Jung's pure types alone, I'd have trouble pegging her as Ni-dom. I'd go with Ne-dom. I don't see a focused, visionary style of intuition, but my experience also tells me Ni is often hidden (much as I don't immediately register as a Feeling type in person). She is definitely not a misunderstood crank. But the influence of Fe could make all the difference here. Is this Ni-Fe mimicking Ne because of a social advantage and focus on a larger, long-term goal?

Check. I think my Ni-Dom is not as obvious as for my INTJ dad for instance. I think you're right that it is Fe that clouds it and might even make it seem as Ne.

I think you may be spot on with your friend. (Are you a psychologist ? or in that field, cause you got talent I think)
Is your friend likeable, very likeable, annoying, ... ? what's your relation ?

 

[chubber]

Your INFJ/ENFP friend could be an INFP.

Auxiliary Introverted Feeling -> Value, things of importance

Dominant Extraverted Intuition + Auxiliary Introverted Feeling -> Exploration of ideas

For Myers (1980/1995)

Perception without judgement is spineless; judgement with no perception is blind. Introversion lacking any extraversion is impractical; extraversion with no introversion is superficial.

Both functions needs to compliment each other, unless the Aux is missing. The dominant function will always have the most time/energy spent on. A good balanced INFP, one who uses the Ne to counter Fi, will appear "ENFP" like.

But lets explore more

When people use a function in their own less-preferred attitude, they may experience a sense of "wrongness" or discomfort with themselves. Thus, an INFP may have a preference for introverted Feeling and extraverting Intuition, but is free to extravert Feeling on occasion and to introvert Intuition when that is desirable. For example, an INFP may speak to a group of people about his or her strong values and may spend time thinking about new ideas, theories, and possibilities without communicating them to others in any way. He or she is also free to introvert inferior Thinking (typically extraverted in an INFP) and to use tretiary Sending in either the Extraverted or Introverted attitude. Nevertheless, because attitude determines the sphere in which a function operates - the outer world or the inner world - when we use a function in the less-preferred attitude we find ourselves in a foreign land, full of uncertainty and lacking in confidence. We feel and behave differently and may appear different to others. This is especially true when the function in question is the dominant one.

The Perceiving Function in the Less-Preferred Attitude Introverts who typically introvert Sensing or Intuition may feel overwhelmed or unfocused when they extravert that function. Exposing their perceiving process to others may interfere with the their confidence in their ability concentrate and direct their train of thought. Their ideas may appear disjointed to both themselves and others, as their inner processing is likely to be much faster than their speech. As a result much of the detail and complexity of their inner perceptions will not be communicated.
The effects of introverting Sensing or Intuition is inpeople who normally extravert theses functions are less apparent. Extraverted Sensing types and Extraverted Intuitive types describe having great difficulty staying focussed on inner perception. Their attention wanders and they become confused and somewhat disorientated. They may feel lost in internal complexity and be unable to communicate what is going on inside them.

The Judging Function in the Less-Preferred Attitude Introverts who typically introvert Feeling or Thinking may feel they are overdoing it, telling too much or providing too much detail when they extravert that function. Other people may confirm the Introvert's fear that he or she has revealed too much. Because that function is usually used internally, Introverts may have difficulty knowing just how much of their inner processes to reveal to others.
The effects of introverting a normally extraverted function are less readily apparent to observers. But Extraverts report that when they introvert their typically extraverted Feeling or Thinking, they can become quite confused and circular in their reasoning. They need to talk about their process and receive feedback from others in order to feel comfortable with their decisions.

 

[PeaceBaby]

So back to INFJs looking ENFP in ways....I feel like a Ne persona is almost like a Fe social strategy for them at times.

And such a social strategy would be supported and reinforced by our current time. Not so much for Gen X but most definitely for Millenials and Centennials. And on the socially accepted viewpoint of Ne - Fi -- the bubbly, random rainbow type persona. The "made for TV" version of Ne - Fi.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think you may be spot on with your friend. (Are you a psychologist ? or in that field, cause you got talent I think)
Is your friend likeable, very likeable, annoying, ... ? what's your relation ?

Well, thanks, but I am only a psychologist of the armchair variety
She is immediately likable to most people. She can be annoying (excessively quirky at times), but so can anyone.
We are casual friends who work together in a volunteer group, not close friends.

Your INFJ/ENFP friend could be an INFP.

Auxiliary Introverted Feeling -> Value, things of importance

Dominant Extraverted Intuition + Auxiliary Introverted Feeling -> Exploration of ideas

I don't see Fi in her...certainly not the Jungian variety. And if she is INFP - what does that make me? I relate more to another INFP friend of mine, albeit she is a 9 and the enneagram differences are very clear in our demeanors. This INFJ seems to be a 4 to me - very much so. I can relate to her from that aspect, but not the thinking style so much. BUT she doesn't seem anything like my INFJ ex....not at all.

For Myers (1980/1995)

Perception without judgement is spineless; judgement with no perception is blind. Introversion lacking any extraversion is impractical; extraversion with no introversion is superficial.

Both functions needs to compliment each other, unless the Aux is missing. The dominant function will always have the most time/energy spent on. A good balanced INFP, one who uses the Ne to counter Fi, will appear "ENFP" like.

But lets explore more

When people use a function in their own less-preferred attitude, they may experience a sense of "wrongness" or discomfort with themselves. Thus, an INFP may have a preference for introverted Feeling and extraverting Intuition, but is free to extravert Feeling on occasion and to introvert Intuition when that is desirable. For example, an INFP may speak to a group of people about his or her strong values and may spend time thinking about new ideas, theories, and possibilities without communicating them to others in any way. He or she is also free to introvert inferior Thinking (typically extraverted in an INFP) and to use tretiary Sending in either the Extraverted or Introverted attitude. Nevertheless, because attitude determines the sphere in which a function operates - the outer world or the inner world - when we use a function in the less-preferred attitude we find ourselves in a foreign land, full of uncertainty and lacking in confidence. We feel and behave differently and may appear different to others. This is especially true when the function in question is the dominant one.

This sounds like me except that I am very comfortable thinking about new ideas/theories without communicating them (and I often do), although I am far more open with those than my feelings (which I feel very awkward sharing directly/openly with people). People tend to note they see more of a Ti style to my thinking than Te....and I obviously feel comfortable with that.

This person seems to be performing much of the time. She seems to want to please people and capture their attention/admiration. I see the Fe tendency to want to be "the most loved" or the "favorite", amplified by being a 4.

The Perceiving Function in the Less-Preferred Attitude Introverts who typically introvert Sensing or Intuition may feel overwhelmed or unfocused when they extravert that function. Exposing their perceiving process to others may interfere with the their confidence in their ability concentrate and direct their train of thought. Their ideas may appear disjointed to both themselves and others, as their inner processing is likely to be much faster than their speech. As a result much of the detail and complexity of their inner perceptions will not be communicated.
The effects of introverting Sensing or Intuition is inpeople who normally extravert theses functions are less apparent. Extraverted Sensing types and Extraverted Intuitive types describe having great difficulty staying focussed on inner perception. Their attention wanders and they become confused and somewhat disorientated. They may feel lost in internal complexity and be unable to communicate what is going on inside them.

I don't know how this would work for her....I don't know how she experiences things internally. She looks disjointed outwardly. She has a hedonistic streak. Maybe this is Ni/inferior Se mimicking Ne? She is not an e7...
But you know, I have that streak too. She sees it in me too (and likes it). We went out and drank too much whiskey and danced to rap music (which we both hate) and gorged on gastro-pub delights. My INFP e9 friend would never do this...she is way more moralistic. This is e4 stuff of course.... I can easily see an ENFP doing this. My INFJ ex would do this (another 4).

What I see lacking is Pe as a strength maybe; as a Ne type, the supposed randomness of Ne is not that random, but for her, she seems genuinely scattered. The same goes for ESFJs who make good pseudo ENFPs. If you actually follow a Ne type, they wrap it up. There is a common thread tying it all together; it is a big picture theme, and not so random at heart (likely because Ji solid reasoning is behind it). Because Pi types seem to associate linearity with things making sense, it's like they don't see the difference sometimes. But I see how it comes together.

Any reasoning she uses seems to be "this would be pleasant for everyone and bring us all together". I suppose Ti is low on the totem pole and largely hidden.

But for me, I don't relate to this fully. I think I DO expose half-finished ideas pretty easily and enjoy tossing ideas around. I don't feel disoriented with my internal perceptions, but I am introvert... my inner world is the most comfortable place, naturally. I may have trouble focusing on my internal sensations...? I may not experience my body fully on an everyday basis. Things like memories feel haunting and surreal. Is this what it means for Si in those with a Ne preference?

The Judging Function in the Less-Preferred Attitude Introverts who typically introvert Feeling or Thinking may feel they are overdoing it, telling too much or providing too much detail when they extravert that function. Other people may confirm the Introvert's fear that he or she has revealed too much. Because that function is usually used internally, Introverts may have difficulty knowing just how much of their inner processes to reveal to others.
The effects of introverting a normally extraverted function are less readily apparent to observers. But Extraverts report that when they introvert their typically extraverted Feeling or Thinking, they can become quite confused and circular in their reasoning. They need to talk about their process and receive feedback from others in order to feel comfortable with their decisions.

Well this sounds like me again and my walls of texts

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I might actually know an ENFP who can look a little bit INFJ, so if I can put it together in my mind, I'll try to contribute that reverse perspective. This is a start...

Mostly I see it in his use of Fe with certain social protocols that he learned from his Fe-dom mother. Sometimes people who do not have a natural template for social interaction, may use one they learned in childhood. He will say that being polite is important and will say 'goodbye' to each person at a party, and will offer workman drinks and snacks - all because those are things his mother would do. When he discusses ideas online, he can be innocently offensive, so there are these pockets of zero-Fe in environments where he never was 'taught' Fe behaviors, which indicates this learned social behavior that can disguise itself as a function. He has developed a personal morality separate from his parents relating to such things as diet, money, career, etc. that all indicate Fi.

Also, with Ni and Ne, he will tend to admire conspiracy theorists who are clearly Ni-dom with complex, intertwined ideologies, but I think he experiences a broader range and remains open to various possibilities, so even though he often references Ni-doms, his own process is not quite so centralized.

So, there are ways that the introverted/extroverted aspect of functions can appear temporarily reversed as a result of people being influenced by someone they admire or an authority during their developmental years who modeled the opposite version of the function?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I might actually know an ENFP who can look a little bit INFJ, so if I can put it together in my mind, I'll try to contribute that reverse perspective. This is a start...

Mostly I see it in his use of Fe with certain social protocols that he learned from his Fe-dom mother. Sometimes people who do not have a natural template for social interaction, may use one they learned in childhood. He will say that being polite is important and will say 'goodbye' to each person at a party, and will offer workman drinks and snacks - all because those are things his mother would do. When he discusses ideas online, he can be innocently offensive, so there are these pockets of zero-Fe in environments where he never was 'taught' Fe behaviors, which indicates this learned social behavior that can disguise itself as a function. He has developed a personal morality separate from his parents relating to such things as diet, money, career, etc. that all indicate Fi.

Also, with Ni and Ne, he will tend to admire conspiracy theorists who are clearly Ni-dom with complex, intertwined ideologies, but I think he experiences a broader range and remains open to various possibilities, so even though he often references Ni-doms, his own process is not quite so centralized.

So, there are ways that the introverted/extroverted aspect of functions can appear temporarily reversed as a result of people being influenced by someone they admire or an authority during their developmental years who modeled the opposite version of the function?

I do some of what your ENFP friend does... I often send thank you cards, for example. My mom taught us a lot about "party etiquette". I understand the mechanics of many customs (as do many TJs I know, especially TJ women, which still doesn't give them the hostess feel that FJs tend to have). I don't have the natural Fe finesse or even Ne-dom charisma.

The latter point is interesting, because it reminds me of a conversation with this possible INFJ where I was exploring ideas of dinosaurs and recent theories that they may have had feathers. The INFJ got quite stubborn, almost argumentative, that these various ideas were ludicrous.
Of course, I enjoy debate, so I was pleased with this response and sought to amplify it, but then she quickly changed topic. That suggests Fe over Ne to me also. Generally, she is uncomfortable with any atmosphere of discord. NPs often delight in pushing buttons. In true NP form, I wanted to explore the most ridiculous of the possibilities, just because!

People might call this reaction of hers Si, as in clinging to a cherished and established concept for reality, but I have seen too many stubborn Ni-dom display the same attitude if you challenge a conception they feel sure of (it's Pi thing, IMO). They get very stubborn and won't explore alternate possibilities, which is where my ex and I would butt heads (we butted heads over Ne/Ni more than Fe/Fi differences). Also, an SJ would find such a conversation so absurd that they'd likely indulge it, but dinosaurs are way too important to NJs for silly speculations.

I also feel like INFJs are more prone to try and dominate socially than ENFPs (Van Der Hoop's Ni description heavily suggests this). Both may be big influencers, but ENFPs want to instigate/inspire more than control the emotional atmosphere or lead people to a specific outcome. I would say she is more of a chart-the-course type in a get-things-going cloak.

 

[thoughtlost]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

If it helps any, I can share a bit about my friend who self-types as INFJ (she is also a 4w5).

She is very social. She can be the biggest clown anyone has ever seen (to me, her socially critical nature and her ability to be silly is where her "uniqueness" shines). She loves to make people laugh. For Valentine's day, she gave people at her job really crappy lollipops and Disney cards. She doesn't take any social ritual seriously, so she isn't doing it to be faithful to the Holiday. She does it for the social-ness of it.

The only time she hates social activities is when people are too tied up feeling self-conscious/trying to keep up appearances. She tries to get the nerds to dance at parties or she teases them for being unwilling to let loose.

Of course, she can be shy and will appear very introverted around new people, but that's just her self-consciousness kicking in because she is TOO socially aware/focused on how people are looking at her. She is slowly getting over that so her true clownish nature can be free around anyone. Her gift is her curse.

I mentioned earlier that she can appear ESFJ-ish. She loves to cook for people and she loves the idea of being a hostess. If she could spend the rest of her life laughing/gossiping with friends and cooking for her family (when she gets one) and decorating/maintaining a home she would. I joke with her, saying she would make the perfect 1950's housewife.

She is critical of society and strongly values being an intellectual (she ALSO has a fetish for ENTPs ...she really likes their Ti-Ne ability to have multiple perspectives). She doesn't seem to be judgmental towards individuals (like she wants to be able to get along/be buddies with anyone), but she is constantly judging society (will say that people marry for efficiency/keeping up socio-economic status, doesn't like the idea of marriage, hate capitalism/the idea the women need to be more like men now ...instead of just valuing what women do).


I used to think I was an INFJ (or at least some xxFJ) until I met her. She is too socially conscious compared to me, in the sense that she is always generalizing people (so she talks about how women are a certain way and how men are a different way). She can barely talk about the "uniqueness" in her friends (she talks about her family/friends like they are social categories). She is pretty much right about everything she says ...but it's not how my mind works.

She understands social cues better than I do (how flirting works and other stuff). She has even said that she is SO aware of social cues that it's hard for when others don't know it as well because then she'll read things that people didn't intend. I would never peg her to have Fi for this reason.

INFJ describes her well, mostly because she THINKS about social norms all the time and how she fits in with others. When I first met her, I couldn't tell if she was INFP or INFJ because she was always talking about how she didn't fit in with her cohort in school (or with even her family or the broader society), but once she realizes that you can accept some of her true nature... she becomes a clown/entertainer. She is THE LOUDEST person in the house.

I also don't think she is a misunderstood crank (although ...all 4s will say they are misunderstood. 4s have a tendency of thinking they are so deep/passionate/complex ...even when they are not that complex... sure, they may not always look like they are fitting into a social box ...but it's not like it's complex ...they just don't fit in and that's fine).

I am not quite sure where Ni really is, but I guess being critical of society and not fitting into society/trying to find her place in it is where it is??? I guess an xSFJ wouldn't even question any social norms or decide if it's a good norm or a bad norm or if it's right for them or not

Her socionics and enneagam type jumped RIGHT OUT at me as I got to know her. Her MBTI/JFC is a still a little funky, but xxFJ seems to be a great ballpark for her. I would not think about typing her as ENFP... but that's because no matter how much fun an ENFP is having teasing the quiet math nerds, I don't think they pay attention to social norms quite as much as her. Also, I don't think she is "scattered" like me. We're both scattered, but she is less scattered in the sense that she is really good with the practicalities of life (such as housework, shopping/cooking food ...and stuff like that). She would never appear ditzy or absent-minded like I can sometimes.

but I could be wrong about how much an ENFP thinks about how they fit into a social system.

TL;DR ...I just realized how much I wrote. Basically, she genuinely loves being a clown/entertaining people and having fun with them. She could never be the monk she says she wants to be because she needs people too much, either to analyze individuals as they fit into groups or entertain/be entertained and get along with individuals.

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] that does sound remarkably like this person... She seems to love Keirsey's take on MBTI and uses it liberally when speaking of people, although I wouldn't say she doesn't acknowledge uniqueness. As obsessed with this stuff as I am, I am so private about my interests that I somehow made the decision to pretend I wasn't familiar with the 4 letter types, only Jungian theory. I don't really feel as comfortable voicing my impressions of others and referring to people as types outside of typology communities. First, I don't feel that confident about it, and I'd hate to ever come across as reductive. However, I find nothing offensive or annoying about her approach.

How do you distinguish your INFJ friend from an ENFJ? I admit I just don't see this person as ENFJ either...it seems it would be the logical alternative typing for an INFJ who seems ENFPish in ways... but I know so many other people I type as ENFJ who I see as clearly being Fe-dom. To me, she screams N-dom, with Feeling taking on a secondary and slightly less rational role than it does with F-dom.

I hope this is not annoying to her, but this particular friend reminds me a LOT of [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] . Just to give the idea of how someone registers as FJ to many (including me), yet has a more playful, whimsical vibe often associated with NFPs (and perhaps inaccurately so).

 

[thoughtlost]

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION] that does sound remarkably like this person... She seems to love Keirsey's take MBTI and uses it liberally when speaking of people, although I wouldn't say she doesn't acknowledge uniqueness. As obsessed with this stuff as I am, I am so private about my interests that I somehow made the decision to pretend I wasn't familiar with the 4 letter types, only Jungian theory. I don't really feel as comfortable voicing my impressions of others and referring to people as types outside of typology communities. First, I don't feel that confident about it, and I'd hate to ever come across as reductive. However, I find nothing offensive or annoying about her approach.

How do you distinguish your INFJ friend from an ENFJ? I admit I just don't see this person as ENFJ either...it seems it would be the logical alternative typing for an INFJ who seems ENFPish in ways... but I know so many other people I type as ENFJ who I see as clearly being Fe-dom. To me, she screams N-dom, with Feeling taking on a secondary and slightly less rational role than it does with F-dom.

I hope this is not annoying to her, but this particular friend reminds me a LOT of [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] . Just to give the idea of how someone registers as FJ to many (including me), yet has a more playful, whimsical vibe often associated with NFPs (and perhaps inaccurately so).

It's easy to write off any xxFP type because while she likes to have fun (sometimes I say she is the classic Katy Perry type of person who would kiss a random girl/flash people on the street ...because she's done both of those things), ...being Katy Perry-esque is not what I think being Ne dom is about.

In fact, it's more just Se way of having fun and I guess it's in an inferior position since it's so stereotyped. When she was younger (and sometimes now, but much less often) she was super shy and socially timid around strangers but goofy around friends/family, especially as a kid. Slowly into college, she started to let herself have fun. To me, she reminds me of a complete stereotype of a repressed school girl who wants to go wild. I guess I don't see that as being whimsical in the way someone who is Pe-dom/Aux is. She has an friend who she has identified as ENFP who she feels is securely fun loving and would always say that the ENFP would motivate her to have such fun/do silly things because she isn't that way on her own.

I guess I don't know what you think being whimsical looks like, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]? I don't know for sure, but whimsy is something that is more a way of life (kind of how for some people, fashion is a way of life) instead of being something that a person wants to be like more often. The way she talks about herself, it's more of the latter. I think she is too conscious of social order and how things should be/or figuring things out using Ti to truly be an inherently whimsical person.

I also never thought Fe was her dominant function, but I think it's like how you used to say that your mom can appear ESFJ when she is truly ISFJ. She can appear extroverted simply because of her entertaining, but for me ...people liking her for entertaining them doesn't mean she's extroverted.

I think her Ni-domness is noted by asking her about her past. She was the quiet girl/insecure/shy girl who still knew how to look socially appropriate, so you can't really pick her out of a crowd and gossip about how weird she seems. She knew how to fit in. I guess this is how you determine if someone is xNFP vs xNFJ ....the xNFJ will still look normal??? Funnily enough, she told me that when she took the test in high school she got a tie between ISFJ and INFJ. She told me that at the time, she thought ISFJ fit better because she saw herself as practical then.

I am assuming that Fe-doms don't have such insecurities about how they look to others because they feel more confident in the world of Fe.

Edit:: I don't know too much about [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], but I do know about me. I am this weird thing were people online can't tell if I am xxFJ or xxFP. Even my friend who we're talking about cannot tell if I am ISFJ or INFP (but I should ask her again what she thinks of my type!). Almost anyone will tell you that I am an F and I come across as warm/sweet/kind pretty much immediately and people think that only those with Fe can appear sweet immediately. But my thinking was so disorganized/random that I was called ENFP when I first joined the site. When I was in high school, the test said I was INFP because I can get "easily excited" by new different things (I loved my first high school were students followed their own paths and everyone had different interests and thoughts, but when I moved to a new high school, everyone just did the same things/came from similar backgrounds and there wasn't much variation). Ah, this is a perfect learning opportunity for me: I am truly BORED by a lack of variation whereas my INFJ friends looks for social patterns and mentally PLACES people into boxes, even as she critiques "the norm". My INFJ friend thinks I am pretty stupid because I cannot see social patterns the way she can. Like, I see it ...but don't understand it ...but then I don't bother to understand it ...so I can easily ignore it... does that make sense?

I think I come across as Ne because I like that there are different/varied ways of being. And she easily seems to be an XNFJ because she wants to fit things into a box so she can critique the box.

It's great that I know my friend so I can compare myself to her. I am no where near as expressive as her. I am a very private person who deep down takes life more seriously than people realize (so I am not as "simple" as I appear ...although I am a social ditz). Meaning for her is about being more relaxed about the social order/where she can fit in and just living life. And meaning for me is much less ...tangible, I guess.

Also, I was never really a shy person like she was, meaning that I was never socially fearful in grade school. I don't think I appeared extroverted to others and I think it's safe to say that I was an outcast (I don't think my INFJ friend would call herself a visible outcast like I would call myself). But I think I had such a genuinely strong interest in other individuals and their interests or liked to talk about the things that was floating on in my mind that I appeared friendly. I have a feeling that her friendliness was more socially acceptably in grade school whereas mine was ...kind of not typical??? but it wasn't bad.

She is ISFp in socionics. That really helped me to understand how we're different.

Oh and I exaggerate slightly when I saw she doesn't acknowledge uniqueness at all, of course she would (who wouldn't unless you're mentally not there), but I mean she that she is pretty high schoolish when it comes to talking about people. Again, her main intellectual shtick is being able to understand social patterns, so she focuses on how groups behave or things that "everyone does or doesn't do". She doesn't go around talking to anyone much about MBTI, but it's always on her mind. We both like to analyze people using MBTI. I like it because it's a cool way to analyze people. Whereas for her, categories comes naturally for her. It doesn't bother me that she thinks like this so much, but it does feel a bit condescending because the way it can be read is that she is saying she is better than everyone else (but that's just her being a 4 and I guess I feel slightly insecure about that because then I think she is being reductive about me too. Either her friends are used for laughter or putting them into a box so she can say that they are just like everyone else who can't think intelligently ...so that doesn't feel good to me, but it's not bad).

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION]
My first thought is that maybe your friend is ISFP....
My friend is not that...er...vulgar. What might be inferior sensing indulgences are pretty tame by most standards.
By whimsical, I mean cutesy stuff like style of dress (ie quirky), talking in silly voices, bursting into song all the time, running into nearby fields and bringing wild flowers back to people, etc... I think she wants life to be a musical, basically.