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  1. #11
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    What about leaving people alone to be wrong bothers you? What does this feel like to you?[/QUOTE]

    I thought I had answered this but now I don't see my response here so I must have neglected to post it. No idea what I said the first time, but I don't think I can put my finger on what it 'feels' like other than uncomfortable. I suspect that idea of people ignoring facts and reality is disturbing to me. Also, because I want to know the facts, have all the information so I can make the best decisions, and understand how things work, it is very difficult to comprehend that someone would choose not to. It doesn't make sense.

  2. #12
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I thought I had answered this but now I don't see my response here so I must have neglected to post it. No idea what I said the first time, but I don't think I can put my finger on what it 'feels' like other than uncomfortable. I suspect that idea of people ignoring facts and reality is disturbing to me. Also, because I want to know the facts, have all the information so I can make the best decisions, and understand how things work, it is very difficult to comprehend that someone would choose not to. It doesn't make sense.
    (Not a loaded question, a genuine exploration) What makes you think that you are the arbiter of facts and reality?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #13
    Senior Member Litsnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    (Not a loaded question, a genuine exploration) What makes you think that you are the arbiter of facts and reality?
    Good questions. I don't think that and don't think I said that. I certainly didn't intend to say that. If someone wants to publicly assert in my presence that vaccines are toxins it's possible I am going to want to engage that person if that person is a friend. If the person is a stranger, probably not. I will want to know what evidence this person has for this statement and I will provide counter with evidence for my position. IN the case of vaccines not being toxic or causing autism I have science behind me. If a person wishes to assert that science lies or is not a valid way of knowing things we aren't going to get anywhere. If a person states an opinion that is new to me and has evidence to support it and it counters something I previously thought then I am interested in hearing about that evidence. I do not assume that something is a fact because it is what I think.

    Now, I do not think it is my personal job to go out into the world spreading facts and reality but I do know that I live in a world where misinformation causes damage so if I can contribute to someone reconsidering a viewpoint or provide someone with information he/she did not previously have then I will do so.

    If a person asserts an opinion in a public space it is up for discussion. If I discuss it and do not agree with any or parts of it that does not mean I am telling someone that I am right and they are wrong. It means I am discussing an issue and if they didn't want to discuss it they should not have asserted it publicly or directly to me in a conversation.

  4. #14
    Marshmallow Heart thepink-cloakedninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    *pulls off mask for a second*

    Wait what? You as an INFP, I thought you were an INFJ trying on different types? Huh. Cool beans. @thepink-cloakedninja

    *puts it back on*

    Pinkie darling is such a sweetie.
    Wait what? I thought you thought I was an ISTJ? :/

    Well ... I genuinely thought I was an INFJ for awhile, but now I'm like 85% sure I'm a Ne/Si and INFP seems the best fit, for now. ESFJ and ENFP are also contenders though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    Thanks those are great suggestions. I do think that I do those things but I will try to do them more. It's kind of that we have an interest in a similar topic but approach it differently only she insists she is winging it and free to choose anything and I keep pointing out that she is actually fitting quite well into a particular system. This irritates her and then I get irritated because her defense is to imply that the systems are flawed and that she needs to be free. I suppose perhaps I am essentially pointing out to her that she's not as free as she thinks she is and of course she wouldn't like that. That is undermining everything she believes in. My problem is that I think she is wrong and I have a hard time leaving people alone to be wrong. I know that is entirely my problem. LOL

    Your avatar scares me!
    Ohhh that makes sense. And I definitely get that it can be hard with people who seem to ignore what we see as obvious. *ahem* My biological dad is obsessed with conspiracy theories ... *gulp* And not wanting to leave people you care about stuck in flawed thinking can definitely be a sign you value them even if the person who is subjected to your caring doesn't feel cared for. xD Perhaps you could help her see the boxes, but in a softer manner than you are doing now? Like, maybe you culd sandwich your arguments against her point of view between things that you both agree on so that way she doesn't feel attacked or anything. Oreo effect for the win!

    As for INFP being a box ... MBTI is definitely a box which is why I don't define myself by my type. I acknowledge that it's there and think MBTI is cool, but I think who I am is much larger than just an INFP.
    Skinny people are easier to kidnap
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepink-cloakedninja View Post
    Wait what? I thought you thought I was an ISTJ? :/

    Well ... I genuinely thought I was an INFJ for awhile, but now I'm like 85% sure I'm a Ne/Si and INFP seems the best fit, for now. ESFJ and ENFP are also contenders though.
    What?? You as an ISTJ? it was very clear from day one you were a feeler to me that's for sure. I might've thought ISFJ but you're on my TBD list of accurately typed or not so I'm at complete peace wherever your journey may lead you too. Plus I like you as an individual on this forum too.

  6. #16
    Marshmallow Heart thepink-cloakedninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    What?? You as an ISTJ? it was very clear from day one you were a feeler to me that's for sure. I might've thought ISFJ but you're on my TBD list of accurately typed or not so I'm at complete peace wherever your journey may lead you too. Plus I like you as an individual on this forum too.
    Oh, well you said I was a beaver and so I thought that beaver = ISTJ FEEL ALL THE FEELS! AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S FEELS, TOO!!!!!!!!!! *runs off holding cool looking flag*

    But that makes sense.
    Skinny people are easier to kidnap
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepink-cloakedninja View Post
    Oh, well you said I was a beaver and so I thought that beaver = ISTJ FEEL ALL THE FEELS! AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S FEELS, TOO!!!!!!!!!! *runs off holding cool looking flag*

    But that makes sense.
    Oh.. no I was more saying you were a symbolic beaver.. not what people have conceived a beaver to be based on some silly personality website. Plus I just thought of a random animal and researching it actually was pretty profound guess.
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  8. #18
    Vulnera Sanentur Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litsnob View Post
    I think you are right. I seem to blunder into conversations where my INFP gets defensive and starts accusing me of using boxes. I then find myself explaining things and then she accuses me of thinking she is stupid. Which might be true. Or perhaps not using the brains she has. You are right though, about picking battles. I seem to end up in battles I was not intending but I am beginning to learn how to get out of them gracefully. Probably my greatest challenge is to learn to stop instinctively explaining and expounding. Thanks for your input.
    What does your friend do when she has to fill out forms, say at the doctor's office? They ask us to choose male or female, single/married/divorced/widowed, employed/student/at home, smoker/drinker/none of the above, etc.

    There is actually nothing wrong about your friend not liking boxes, or feeling they don't describe her, or even not believing in them. These are all her own opinions, to which she is entitled. Now claiming she can't be put into a box is wrong, as all those forms show. All she can claim here is that the box describes her poorly and minimally at best. So, it is fine for her not to like them, as long as she is willing to work with them when the time comes. They constrain her freedom only if she allows them to do so.
    Though the ground was burnt and everything turned into ashes, we will revive again. The sky is still blue, the crashing waves from long ago are unchanged. This is Earth, our planet. This dream is in the hearts of people; so long as they do not abandon it, it will not fade away. For the sake of tomorrow, keep a song in your heart. For the sake of our future, let us stop our crying and stand on our ground firmly.
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  9. #19
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I don't care much about the box thing.
    A few anecdotes here and there from people who know supposed INFPs who dislike boxes doesn't really hold up well in the face of typology communities filled to the brim with INFPs who readily embrace the label. We are possibly the most populous type in these communities. Isabel Myers herself was an INFP and she invented this system to categorize people!

    So no, it's not an "INFP thing" to reject all forms of categorizating.

    What I don't like is to have people ascribe me bad motive because they jump to conclusions about what certain behavior or choices must mean. Maybe that is what your friend means by boxes she doesn't like - making negative assumptions about people because you reduced them or their behavior to something overly simplistic and didn't consider alternatives. Not considering alternative interpretations rubs Ne the wrong way. It's not asking you to defy logic....it's saying to widen the scope and perhaps realize you didn't have all the data points to draw an accurate conclusion with your snap judgement.

    The way I see people use boxes is often illogical. Their reasoning looks like this to me:
    "People who wear purple often seem to like pancakes. You wear purple. You must like pancakes."
    Another form is majorly projecting:
    "That purple colors grabs my attention. You must be wearing purple because you're an attention whore!"
    "If I wore purple, then it would be because I am rebelling against what I feel is a more mature choice of grey. That person wearing purple is so inappropriate and immature."

    So to me, it's just a lot of stereotypical BS. I don't think people actually, consciously use crappy reasoning as shown above, but I think they jump to a conclusion about something as if it's an unquestionable reality and not an interpretation which has possible bias in it.

    Obviously your frienemy uses SOME categories or she wouldn't identify as "intuitive" or assign colors to flowers. Language itself defines and categories. But don't point that out to her if she feels like your correct and criticize her a lot.

    I suspect there is far more to this, and sometimes IxFPs give up on explaining their whole view or never attempt to begin with because they don't want to be that vulnerable. In other words, "I don't like boxes" might be some stock phrase she goes to out of frustration, not bothering to detail what value was actually violated and how. Perhaps that seemingly protects the value even more (by keeping your nose miles off its scent) and also saves a lot energy. Getting people to grasp your reason for something (because feeling is reasoning - oh yes it is!) often requires them to majorly shift their perspective at the same time. It asks them to change their premise, which is often a bias about what reality is like, something that can make them feel threatened to question. So instead of going through all that, a flippant response to basically tell someone to STFU seems preferable.

    ------

    Anyhow, I have clashed with an INTJ who is an enneagram 1 and quite a different animal than the enneagram 5 variety (who I usually get along okay with). To me, he has a "my way or the highway" attitude, but then gets all pissed off when people choose the highway. He also jumps to the worst conclusions about people. He gives no benefit of the doubt and has zero empathy. Also, if something annoys him or seems wrong to him, it is addressed as if it is an objective standard and not a particular preference or viewpoint of his. Yet, when it comes to his flaws, well, people should forgive and laugh it off. He doesn't seem aware he even has flaws though. The double standards get to me, and when you have that big of a stick up your butt, you really don't have room for double standards. Confusing preferences for objective standards is another annoyance of mine. It makes people inflexible and unreasonable to me. I don't bother to reason with him because he gets so butthurt. He is so stubborn, that I feel like I end up attacking him personally to get his mind to open a smidgen. He can't handle being wrong ever, and the only way to get him to see another way is to be like, "YOU ARE HURTING PEOPLE" and then he overreacts to the idea that he hurts people... So instead I mostly ignore him.

    I'm sure this INTJ's take on our personality clash is quite different. He might tell you I am rebellious, disruptive and unreliable. He would think this stems from arrogance and carelessness on my part. But that's because he ascribes the worst motive possible for everything. To me, he comes across as a miserable person who wants to make everyone as joyless as he is. Most of this reeks of unhealthy enneagram 1, and my being a 4, that seems more at the heart of our differences than Jungian type. I seriously thought this guy was ESTJ because the e1s I've encountered before who were like this happened to be ESTJ, but he tests and identifies as INTJ, and he does display intuitive preferences at times (ENTJ still seems a possibility).

    I mainly brought this up to illustrate how an issue looks very different from the other side...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  10. #20
    Marshmallow Heart thepink-cloakedninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Oh.. no I was more saying you were a symbolic beaver.. not what people have conceived a beaver to be based on some silly personality website. Plus I just thought of a random animal and researching it actually was pretty profound guess.
    Ah, I see.

    But I've actually realized I'm a duck billed platypus. Either that or a moss hedgehog/water bear.
    Skinny people are easier to kidnap
    Stay safe
    Eat cheesecake

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