[NF] ever asked "do we really have to do anything in this world?"

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I went through an existential crisis a while ago. It's a pretty natural thing to experience, I believe, because of the predicament we, as organisms, find ourselves in: motivated for goals in an environment where goals don't ultimately matter. I think, deep down, that it's a great search that ultimately can bear fruits of wisdom and contentment. If the universe is purpose-less, then why do I create purpose? Why does it feel like it matters when cognitively I know that it doesn't? These questions point to the bigger question of "what am I?" What am I in this universe? What is my role? Great questions.

My search used to be more on the frantic and intellectual side. I would make conclusions like "life has no meaning" and then do whatever I wanted to do; it became a justification for living like a hedonist. Sloppy living, I'd call it. Nowadays I still ask those questions but I'm not as worried about not having meaning. I worry about self-improvement and self-intimacy, which is more the answer than the question, I s'pose. I'm a bit less intellectual about the process, probably because I've started to see the limits and dangers of living one's life through a philosophy -- sacrificing intimacy with one's feelings, body, and with one's surroundings.

Anyway, I'm no guru and I'm certainly not satisfied with where I am. Just thought I'd share a few thoughts on the subject.

 

[redacted]

^What he said. (Every word.)

 

[ajblaise]

My search used to be more on the frantic and intellectual side. I would make conclusions like "life has no meaning" and then do whatever I wanted to do; it became a justification for living like a hedonist. Sloppy living, I'd call it. Nowadays I still ask those questions but I'm not as worried about not having meaning.

I think it has nothing to do with an honest intellectual quest that leads them to the "fuck it" conclusion, but depression.

It seems to me that most people who adopt the "fuck it" "life has no meaning" outlook do it as a rationalization to live for the day, the short-term. A lot of drug addicts have this attitude, which enables them to continue on as they are.

 

[redacted]

I'm curious. What intellectual argument could you give against the statement "life has no meaning"?

(I do agree that depression is greatly at play in terms of application of this philosophy to life. But I've still never been able to convince myself of any great meaning.)

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I think it has nothing to do with an honest intellectual quest that leads them to the "fuck it" conclusion, but depression.

It seems to me that most people who adopt the "fuck it" "life has no meaning" outlook do it as a rationalization to live for the day, the short-term. A lot of drug addicts have this attitude, which enables them to continue on as they are.

I think depression may play a part, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that an honest intellectual inquiry has nothing to do with it. It seems to be a pretty logical conclusion, no? If the universe has no ultimate purpose, and I am a part of the universe, then my actions and decision have no ultimate purpose. If that's the case, all outcomes (and choices) are equal. If that's true, then I may as well make choices that maximize pleasure.

 

[ajblaise]

I'm curious. What intellectual argument could you give against the statement "life has no meaning"?

Literally, I would say it's clearly evident that life has meaning, when you look at the definition of "meaning" and "significance":

Meaning - 1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import:

Significance - 1. important; of consequence.

Life is obviously important, it is the direct reason for every consequence we experience.

Less literally, life is worth living because we all have a lifetime to experience pleasure and happiness, no one denies that happiness is an unworthy goal. If someone has no hope of future happiness, and is right (certain medical conditions, daily suffering.. not "my girlfriend broke up with me") than life might not have "meaning" for them.

 

[ajblaise]

I think depression may play a part, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that an honest intellectual inquiry has nothing to do with it. It seems to be a pretty logical conclusion, no? If the universe has no ultimate purpose, and I am a part of the universe, then my actions and decision have no ultimate purpose. If that's the case, all outcomes (and choices) are equal. If that's true, then I may as well make choices that maximize pleasure.

I think how happy or depressed someone is, especially at the extremes, will have a large effect on that persons outlook and intellectual opinions. How much a person is able to intellectually detach from their feelings and mind state will dictate how much they are effected by whether or not they have enough "feel good" chemical inside them.

But on the "no meaning" conclusion being a logical one. "The universe has no purpose" is very extreme assumption to make. I'd have to hear the logical explanation as to why the universe is most likely meaningless.

 

[redacted]

Literally, I would say it's clearly evident that life has meaning, when you look at the definition of "meaning" and "significance":

Meaning - 1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import:

What does intended mean? How do you know what "actually is?"

Intention is a funny word to use to define meaning, since the definition of intention would probably include meaning or some synonym.

Significance - 1. important; of consequence.

Life is obviously important, it is the direct reason for every consequence we experience.

Again, what does important mean? What does of consequence mean?

Less literally, life is worth living because we all have a lifetime to experience pleasure and happiness, no one denies that happiness is an unworthy goal. If someone has no hope of future happiness, and is right (certain medical conditions, daily suffering.. not "my girlfriend broke up with me") than life might not have "meaning" for them.

How can you judge whether or not someone else should decide if their life is worth living? You don't have access to the same information that they do. And you have no idea how they're weighing the present against the future.

Some people may be just as fucked up over their girlfriend breaking up with them as other people are over being molested for years of their childhood. It's so dependent on subjective experience.

The word "meaning" is entirely subjective, which is really the point Edahn was trying to make. "Meaning" doesn't mean (heh) anything without a person to have an interpretation of it.

We define the word meaning and attempt to apply it to a reality that doesn't care about our words. There is no meaning besides the one we create. There is no true meaning (in other words, no way to judge whether something having meaning is true or false).

Given that there is no meaning without subject, if you aren't attached to your own self (subject), you aren't attached to meaning, which can mean you aren't attached to life.

Obviously depression is at play here. But isn't depression basically thinking that your short term actions won't change your happiness (sense of meaning)? Depression and not having a sense of meaning sort of go hand in hand.

(I wonder if anyone followed that...)

 

[ajblaise]

What does intended mean? How do you know what "actually is?"

Intention is a funny word to use to define meaning, since the definition of intention would probably include meaning or some synonym.



Again, what does important mean? What does of consequence mean?

We, humans, invented words. We get to decide what they mean. If someone claims to speak English for instance, they have no excuse to be at a loss concerning definitions, they have the dictionary.

How can you judge whether or not someone else should decide if their life is worth living? You don't have access to the same information that they do. And you have no idea how they're weighing the present against the future.

Some people may be just as fucked up over their girlfriend breaking up with them as other people are over being molested for years of their childhood. It's so dependent on subjective experience.

The word "meaning" is entirely subjective, which is really the point Edahn was trying to make. "Meaning" doesn't mean (heh) anything without a person to have an interpretation of it.

We define the word meaning and attempt to apply it to a reality that doesn't care about our words. There is no meaning besides the one we create. There is no true meaning (in other words, no way to judge whether something having meaning is true or false).

Given that there is no meaning without subject, if you aren't attached to your own self (subject), you aren't attached to meaning, which can mean you aren't attached to life.

Obviously depression is at play here. But isn't depression basically thinking that your short term actions won't change your happiness (sense of meaning)? Depression and not having a sense of meaning sort of go hand in hand.

(I wonder if anyone followed that...)

It's correct that whether someone's life is worth living will most of the time be best estimate by the self. Some who got dumped versus someone who was molested can both have the same level of pain.. but the person who got dumped is more likely to recover. I will make no judgment on their decision to commit suicide was 'right' or 'wrong' however.

Someone can logically say life isn't worth living. But technically, they can't objectively and logically say the universe has no meaning.

 

[redacted]

We, humans, invented words. We get to decide what they mean. If someone claims to speak English for instance, they have no excuse to be at a loss concerning definitions, they have the dictionary.

That's kind of my point. We created the term "meaning" and the concept to go with it. It doesn't have to be something that truly exists, it's just a word. Just like 'consciousness'. Or 'one'. Or 'God'.

Your argument is like Bella's.

It's correct that whether someone's life is worth living will most of the time be best estimate by the self. Some who got dumped versus someone who was molested can both have the same level of pain.. but the person who got dumped is more likely to recover. I will make no judgment on their decision to commit suicide was 'right' or 'wrong' however.

Someone can logically say life isn't worth living. But technically, they can't objectively and logically say the universe has no meaning.

No one can objectively say anything, because we don't have access to objective information.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Literally, I would say it's clearly evident that life has meaning, when you look at the definition of "meaning" and "significance":

Meaning - 1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import:

Significance - 1. important; of consequence.

Life is obviously important, it is the direct reason for every consequence we experience.

Less literally, life is worth living because we all have a lifetime to experience pleasure and happiness, no one denies that happiness is an unworthy goal. If someone has no hope of future happiness, and is right (certain medical conditions, daily suffering.. not "my girlfriend broke up with me") than life might not have "meaning" for them.

But on the "no meaning" conclusion being a logical one. "The universe has no purpose" is very extreme assumption to make. I'd have to hear the logical explanation as to why the universe is most likely meaningless.

I didn't find anything really satisfying about the first quote. We're talking about ultimate, or deep importance. (At least, I am, and I think dissonance is too.) People can attribute importance to certain events, but that importance is subjective, not objective, and not inherent in the universe.

The second quote still doesn't really hit the nail on the head, although it seems closer. I think it just begs the question: what is the purpose of my happiness? Does it really matter?

The third quote forces me to define what meaning is. I think of it as just "mattering." Does anything really matter? Do my actions ultimately matter? Does my happiness matter, or my existence? I think that if you take an honest look at the universe, it looks like (a) we are a very very small portion of it, something that almost looks like an "accident" and (b) events in the universe are dictated by its physical laws. It's a giant machine that's automatically running but doesn't seem to have anywhere specific it's trying to get to because no one is guiding it there. (Sorry fundies, you lose.) If there is no final goal, then no single event can objectively matter. It's the difference between playing a tennis match and just volleying. Volleying has no winner or loser, so each hit or miss doesn't matter. It can matter to you personally, subjectively, if you invent your own goal (e.g., hit 5 in a row) but ultimately, objectively, it's meaningless.

 

[ajblaise]

That's kind of my point. We created the term "meaning" and the concept to go with it. It doesn't have to be something that truly exists, it's just a word. Just like 'consciousness'. Or 'one'. Or 'God'.

Your argument is like Bella's.



No one can objectively say anything, because we don't have access to objective information.

We create these concepts, languages, theories.. we give them meaning. Your life is effected everyday because of these non-physical ideas.

Language is objective, the definitions to words are documented and objective.

How can you logically say we can't know the meaning/definition of words? We created words and gave them meaning/definitions.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I'm going to split the God stuff out of here because it's off-topic and seems like it's going to turn into a God vs. skepticism debate. Link here.

Bella, please remember that while you're entitled to voice your opinions and beliefs, people here don't like to be preached to. This isn't the right thread for that, nor the right site. If you'd like to start a thread about God, go for it. Just be mindful of the religious moralizing.

 

[redacted]

We create these concepts, languages, theories.. we give them meaning. Your life is effected everyday because of these non-physical ideas.

Language is objective, the definitions to words are documented and objective.

How can you logically say we can't know the meaning/definition of words? We created words and gave them meaning/definitions.

We can use our words correctly or incorrectly, but we can't think of them as getting at anything objective. Everything is subjective. Perception is subjective.

Atoms are governed by physical laws, no?

We are made up of atoms, no?

Therefore we are governed by physical laws.

Free will is an illusion.

 

[ajblaise]

I didn't find anything really satisfying about the first quote. We're talking about ultimate, or deep importance. (At least, I am, and I think dissonance is too.) People can attribute importance to certain events, but that importance is subjective, not objective, and not inherent in the universe.

The second quote still doesn't really hit the nail on the head, although it seems closer. I think it just begs the question: what is the purpose of my happiness? Does it really matter?

The third quote forces me to define what meaning is. I think of it as just "mattering." Does anything really matter? Do my actions ultimately matter? Does my happiness matter, or my existence? I think that if you take an honest look at the universe, it looks like (a) we are a very very small portion of it, something that almost looks like an "accident" and (b) events in the universe are dictated by its physical laws. It's a giant machine that's automatically running but doesn't seem to have anywhere specific it's trying to get to because no one is guiding it there. (Sorry fundies, you lose.) If there is no final goal, then no single event can objectively matter. It's the difference between playing a tennis match and just volleying. Volleying has no winner or loser, so each hit or miss doesn't matter. It can matter to you personally, subjectively, if you invent your own goal (e.g., hit 5 in a row) but ultimately, objectively, it's meaningless.

When you say, "does anything matter?" what would you need to know to feel that life matters? A God that visits earth and convinces you of an afterlife? Do you have to know that you will have an afterlife for life to matter for you?

What matters is subjective. What is of meaning, value, significance, to someone is a decision they make.

Therefore, you can't objectively say "Nothing matters".. to you it might not, that's your reality, not others.

 

[ajblaise]

We can use our words correctly or incorrectly, but we can't think of them as getting at anything objective. Everything is subjective. Perception is subjective.

Atoms are governed by physical laws, no?

We are made up of atoms, no?

Therefore we are governed by physical laws.

Free will is an illusion.

We can use words correctly/incorrectly only if we go outside dictionary definitions.

I think what you mean is; what matters to individuals differs and is subjective. The meaning of the word "matters" is the same, but what specifically matters and has meaning to people varies.

I agree though that free will is an illusion. Determinism makes the most sense.

 

[redacted]

Oh so we're not disagreeing at all.

There is no meaning of life. But there is subjective meaning.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

When you say, "does anything matter?" what would you need to know to feel that life matters? A God that visits earth and convinces you of an afterlife? Do you have to know that you will have an afterlife for life to matter for you?

I somewhat believe in reincarnation already, but it doesn't have impact on the issue of ultimate purpose and ultimate goals.

What matters is subjective. What is of meaning, value, significance, to someone is a decision they make.

I don't disagree, but I don't find this satisfying either. To go through life setting up little personal goals seems self-deceptive to me.

Therefore, you can't objectively say "Nothing matters".. to you it might not, that's your reality, not others.

I think you're contradicting yourself. If it's my reality and not others', then it's subjective by definition, no?


As fun as this is, I really have to go to sleep, Mr. blaise. Gentlemen, goodnight.

 

[ajblaise]

Oh so we're not disagreeing at all.

There is no meaning of life. But there is subjective meaning.

eh, I'm saying that we can only answer the question of meaning on a subjective level.

I mean, no one on this earth can really claim to "know" anything. Unless you're the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

[Bella]

eh, I'm saying that we can only answer the question of meaning on a subjective level.

I mean, no one on this earth can really claim to "know" anything. Unless you're the 2nd coming of Christ.

I remember you making claims of divinity before. heehee