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[NF] Question for NFPs. (Other NFs are welcome to give their input!)

OrangeAppled

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Those dumb Fi and Fe stereotypes are not a reality.
Also, there are many ways to give/help.
 

julesiscools

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xNFPs can be altruistic too, especially if you're an enneagram 2.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain that I'm an enneagram 2. I used to be so sure that I wasn't, but in light of recent events, I totally am. I was just in denial.
 

Pionart

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Giving to others just sounds like a Feeling trait.

edit:

I would say the main difference between Fi and Fe is that Fi sources its values inwardly through reflection and Fe sources its values outwardly through social interaction.
 

julesiscools

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Giving to others just sounds like a Feeling trait.

edit:

I would say the main difference between Fi and Fe is that Fi sources its values inwardly through reflection and Fe sources its values outwardly through social interaction.

The point I was trying to make was the extent that I give. I know it has a lot to do with me needing to learn how to make personal boundaries, and how to read manipulation. Maybe I didn't word my question in the OP well, but I was asking if personal boundaries, and giving TOO MUCH were an issue for NFPs or NFs in general. (I was asking because someone took this ONE trait of mine, and said I was an ISFJ - which is not a bad thing. Cognitively though, I don't work like an ISFJ, so they had me a bit confused. I'm over that now, though.)

EDIT: I replied to this before you edited! lol. But my point remains, someone tried to tell me I used Fe because I care about others so much. I've never looked a lot into Fe because I've always related to Fi strongly. But I wanted to know more, I guess?
 

ceecee

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I have a tendency to hold resentment for those that don't give me as much as I give them. These are generally people very close to me, that I feel I've sacrificed for and have taken advantage of me.

My father has a fairly weak Fe, but I get my self-sacrificing tendencies from him, I think. Or at least, it's a trait that we share.


This is all e2.
 

Pionart

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The point I was trying to make was the extent that I give. I know it has a lot to do with me needing to learn how to make personal boundaries, and how to read manipulation. Maybe I didn't word my question in the OP well, but I was asking if personal boundaries, and giving TOO MUCH were an issue for NFPs or NFs in general. (I was asking because someone took this ONE trait of mine, and said I was an ISFJ - which is not a bad thing. Cognitively though, I don't work like an ISFJ, so they had me a bit confused. I'm over that now, though.)

EDIT: I replied to this before you edited! lol. But my point remains, someone tried to tell me I used Fe because I care about others so much. I've never looked a lot into Fe because I've always related to Fi strongly. But I wanted to know more, I guess?

ISFJ depends a lot on social feedback and adjusts accordingly, whereas INFP doesn't really do that. (I'm not saying anything about you there, just what I believe a major difference to be)

The SJ in ISFJ means they are goal-focused in a sensory way, which often means going over familiar details repeatedly to build familiarity. The NP in INFP means a more freeform connection between ideas in how they think.

As I mentioned, giving too much to others sounds like a strong Feeling preference, so having Feeling as the dominant function works better than having it as auxiliary.
 

tkae.

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I have tendency to give more to people than they give to me. (Keep in mind, this is only people close to me. I do not particularly invest my time in people that I don't know well.)

But it's a pretty typical human thing to care a lot about the people close to you and not much about people you don't know. That's one of the things that makes typing tricky: it's not a checklist of things you fulfill, it's a system that explains things working together in your personality. Two exactly similar actions can have two completely different typology implications.

So in separating the wheat from the chaff, the question becomes how those actions are important to you.

For me, I give to others and am kind to others because I consider it a moral imperative to make the world a better place for my being there. I believe that it's me being a conscientious world citizen to do that, and fulfilling my personal ideal and mission to care about others. It makes me a happier person, it fulfills me emotionally, and it satisfies my personal ideals. That's all Fi.

On the other hand, I have friends who believe in helping others because they want to be useful, or to express their happiness and kindness towards others. Their motivation is in the act itself, not on a deeper, more personal level. That would be Fe.

To simplify that a bit, I make people happy because it makes me happy. There's an intrinsic, ideological component driving it (and is part of why I like Ayn Rand's defense of selfishness). My friends give to others because they want to give to others. You can even (albeit a bit inaccurately) break it down to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. I'm my own reason for helping others, no matter if it's noticed or appreciated, because I'm operating with Fi. if I were operating with Fe, the consequence of my actions would matter. Was it helpful? Was it not quite right? Did it get the result I wanted? Has it caused the change it was intended to cause? With Fi, I don't care if the person appreciated it or changed because of it. I did what I needed to do for myself.

Could be lack of personal boundaries (a hallmark of Perceivers) along with an Fi value that says you should help out those around you. That combination turns lots of INFPs into doormats for the people immediately around them.

This.

I didn't even notice I was doing this until my ENTJ adviser in college pointed it out to me. I was in her office, and the janitor came to collect her trash. I never want to feel like I'm stepping on a janitor, so I offered to carry the trash can out into the hallway for her.

My adviser pointed out that this is implying she can't do the job herself, and that I have no business carrying an actual trash can for someone. I didn't feel like a doormat, but it also made me realize that there's reasonable limits to what I can or should do for others, and that carrying a trashcan for someone whose job is to literally empty trash cans is one of them.

Also, FWIW, Fi-Doms are often good at Fe (which may be another way of saying what I just said above), and Fe-Doms are often pretty good at understanding Fi. The introverted and extroverted variants of each function are close enough in essence that we often become reasonably good at both over time.

I agree, but it's tricky. You have to invest a lot of time and soul-searching to distinguish between the two, because they overlap so much. At the same time, it's worth the effort, both personally and as far as understanding Typology better. It especially has implications when you start getting into Shadow functions (if you get there, I've been in MBTI for over 5 years and just got seriously interested in it).
 

OrangeAppled

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For me, I give to others and am kind to others because I consider it a moral imperative to make the world a better place for my being there. I believe that it's me being a conscientious world citizen to do that, and fulfilling my personal ideal and mission to care about others. It makes me a happier person, it fulfills me emotionally, and it satisfies my personal ideals. That's all Fi.

On the other hand, I have friends who believe in helping others because they want to be useful, or to express their happiness and kindness towards others. Their motivation is in the act itself, not on a deeper, more personal level. That would be Fe.

This aligns with my experience and observations.

I'd say I'm motivated out of principle (or my moral ideals) more than a desire to develop rapport or be viewed a certain way.

I notice many xxFJs are more about rapport building or expressing a feeling. Honestly, I do see a "selfish" side to this, as well as noticing there is more of a self-image wrapped up in it. But then, that's supposedly a 2 thing too.

To simplify that a bit, I make people happy because it makes me happy. There's an intrinsic, ideological component driving it (and is part of why I like Ayn Rand's defense of selfishness). My friends give to others because they want to give to others. You can even (albeit a bit inaccurately) break it down to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. I'm my own reason for helping others, no matter if it's noticed or appreciated, because I'm operating with Fi. if I were operating with Fe, the consequence of my actions would matter. Was it helpful? Was it not quite right? Did it get the result I wanted? Has it caused the change it was intended to cause? With Fi, I don't care if the person appreciated it or changed because of it. I did what I needed to do for myself.

I don't relate to this at all though.
It rarely makes me happy to help anyone. I have little to no emotional reward. There may be some long-term reward, as you mention, which means living up to my ideals and how that gives me a sense of fulfillment. You could say this is an inner harmony vs an outer harmony, but I don't experience any immediate payoff and thus don't feel driven emotionally.

I certainly care about the effect on others. I don't like when people "help" and I get a sense that it's really about their ego, and so they fail to discern how I really feel or what I really need. Then I'm expected to be grateful for something I didn't even really want. It feels like someone is trying to obligate me to them, and that doesn't feel like a gift at all. I'm the kind of person who would prefer to give/help and have no one know about it. Purity of intention is important to me.

There is also a certain kind of helping/giving that almost implies someone isn't capable (as you noted) or that they are high-maintenance (as if they must be catered to). I think giving people space and respecting and encouraging independence can be more helpful in the long run. I definitely abide by the idea that if everyone who can do so takes care of themselves then no one ends up unduly burdened, and then people are equipped to help those who truly need it.

I suppose if my ego is wrapped up in anything it's discerning someone's real feelings and not using one-size-fits-all approaches.

For example, my friend told me her "love language" is gift giving. So even though that's not really meaningful to me, I will make it a point to buy her gifts. I don't feel any surge of happiness upon doing this. It is a gesture to express my affection for her as my friend, but it always feels like I am acting out of an idea of, say, what a "good friend" is like, not because I am expressing the emotion of a moment. Of course, there is a general feeling expressed, but I don't experience an emotion motivating me. I don't feel good afterwards either. If I give someone a gift, I also don't care about seeing their face when they open it, etc. It's not about me beyond a general feeling of "what is the right thing" or some golden rule principle to treat people as I'd like to be treated (ie as an individual with distinct needs and preferences).
 

PeaceBaby

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I don't relate to this at all though.
It rarely makes me happy to help anyone. I have little to no emotional reward. There may be some long-term reward, as you mention, which means living up to my ideals and how that gives me a sense of fulfillment. You could say this is an inner harmony vs an outer harmony, but I don't experience any immediate payoff and thus don't feel driven emotionally.

I certainly care about the effect on others. I don't like when people "help" and I get a sense that it's really about their ego, and so they fail to discern how I really feel or what I really need. Then I'm expected to be grateful for something I didn't even really want. It feels like someone is trying to obligate me to them, and that doesn't feel like a gift at all. I'm the kind of person who would prefer to give/help and have no one know about it. Purity of intention is important to me.

There is also a certain kind of helping/giving that almost implies someone isn't capable (as you noted) or that they are high-maintenance (as if they must be catered to). I think giving people space and respecting and encouraging independence can be more helpful in the long run. I definitely abide by the idea that if everyone who can do so takes care of themselves then no one ends up unduly burdened, and then people are equipped to help those who truly need it.

I suppose if my ego is wrapped up in anything it's discerning someone's real feelings and not using one-size-fits-all approaches.

For example, my friend told me her "love language" is gift giving. So even though that's not really meaningful to me, I will make it a point to buy her gifts. I don't feel any surge of happiness upon doing this. It is a gesture to express my affection for her as my friend, but it always feels like I am acting out of an idea of, say, what a "good friend" is like, not because I am expressing the emotion of a moment. Of course, there is a general feeling expressed, but I don't experience an emotion motivating me. I don't feel good afterwards either. If I give someone a gift, I also don't care about seeing their face when they open it, etc. It's not about me beyond a general feeling of "what is the right thing" or some golden rule principle to treat people as I'd like to be treated (ie as an individual with distinct needs and preferences).

This is my experience as well. I know what people appreciate and tailor my interactions to that on an individual basis. But I get no sense of emotional fulfilment or satisfaction from the act; I sometimes wish I did as some sort of motivating force at least. It's more about a sense of doing the right thing. That even includes offering an emotional reaction to those who need it most in order to feel good about what they are doing for me. I guess that sounds like falsity, but there's no sense to me in not giving people what they need when it doesn't cause any other issue for myself. There's this sense of just doing what I do silently and unrecognized, and I'm ok with that most of the time.

Once in a while though, when a certain type of giving is taken for granted, as though a person is OWED what I do, that's when I can get pissed.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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[MENTION=31253]julesiscools[/MENTION]
I've over-thought the whole Fe/Fi business to the point I'm a bit confused on it myself. Most of the standard descriptions of Fe include the concept of valuing social norms, having some ability as a hostess, and being able to function in groups and understand the group dynamics. I'm not sure if a person can be Fe and not relate to any of that or not. Fe is the most definitive form of social extroversion, so it may look different for a Fe-aux who is an introvert. Perhaps one best test is to ask, if your personal values and social peace are in conflict, which do you choose? That can also lack a definitive answer because I know for myself, I am more likely to submit to keep the peace with someone I feel an intimate connection towards, but not generalized people, so we can behave differently in different contexts.

Fe Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

Fi Introverted Feeling - (Fe)
 

julesiscools

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For me, I give to others and am kind to others because I consider it a moral imperative to make the world a better place for my being there. I believe that it's me being a conscientious world citizen to do that, and fulfilling my personal ideal and mission to care about others. It makes me a happier person, it fulfills me emotionally, and it satisfies my personal ideals. That's all Fi.
On the other hand, I have friends who believe in helping others because they want to be useful, or to express their happiness and kindness towards others. Their motivation is in the act itself, not on a deeper, more personal level. That would be Fe.

Every description I've even seen of Fe I've never related to, at all. Only because it seems like it's concerned with societal standards and values, and I honestly don't care about these things.

I certainly care about the effect on others. I don't like when people "help" and I get a sense that it's really about their ego, and so they fail to discern how I really feel or what I really need. Then I'm expected to be grateful for something I didn't even really want. It feels like someone is trying to obligate me to them, and that doesn't feel like a gift at all. I'm the kind of person who would prefer to give/help and have no one know about it. Purity of intention is important to me.

I try to be so careful with this, because I know so many people that don't want "help". I'm more likely to just offer it should they ever need it. My issue, I've come to realize, is that I can't discern when someone really needs that "help", or if they're taking advantage of my offer and being manipulative.

....I'm trying to figure out how to word what I mean when I say that I'm not given back what I give out. For the most part, I do not expect anyone to "give" me what I "give" them, because that's not my intention. It's when it's a +10 yr relationship/friendship, and you realize that you've given everything and they're just there when it's good for them.
 

julesiscools

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[MENTION=10701]Jules[/MENTION]iscool
I've over-thought the whole Fe/Fi business to the point I'm a bit confused on it myself. Most of the standard descriptions of Fe include the concept of valuing social norms, having some ability as a hostess, and being able to function in groups and understand the group dynamics. I'm not sure if a person can be Fe and not relate to any of that or not. Fe is the most definitive form of social extroversion, so it may look different for a Fe-aux who is an introvert. Perhaps one best test is to ask, if your personal values and social peace are in conflict, which do you choose? That can also lack a definitive answer because I know for myself, I am more likely to submit to keep the peace with someone I feel an intimate connection towards, but not generalized people, so we can behave differently in different contexts.

Fe Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

Fi Introverted Feeling - (Fe)

I'm more like you when it comes to personal values and social peace, I suppose. As far as generalized people or society goes, I'd pick my personal values any day. It's personal and intimate relationships that I'm more likely to compromise my personal values for, which is something I'm working on, because I feel that if someone truly cares for you, they wouldn't ask you to compromise these things.
 

Yama

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Every description I've even seen of Fe I've never related to, at all. Only because it seems like it's concerned with societal standards and values, and I honestly don't care about these things.

Same.

After reading through this thread, I'm much less "stereotypically" Fe than you are, though I'm definitely an ISFJ.

This is the best way I've found to differentiate from the two:

Fi likes to be a living example of its values. It doesn't impose them on others and it isn't so easily affected by others' differences. It lets it speak for itself.
Fe tries to spread its values to others because it thinks that if others don't value the same things that they do, then what's the point?

I also think Fi and Ti are much more alike than Fi and Fe, both being Ji functions and all.
 

Bush

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As far as Fe vs. Fi, giving may have to do with motivation. Instinct? Obligation? Fulfillment? Accommodation? Appeasement? Duty?

I never want to feel like I'm stepping on a janitor, so I offered to carry the trash can out into the hallway for her.

My adviser pointed out that this is implying she can't do the job herself, and that I have no business carrying an actual trash can for someone. I didn't feel like a doormat, but it also made me realize that there's reasonable limits to what I can or should do for others, and that carrying a trashcan for someone whose job is to literally empty trash cans is one of them.
I had experiences much like this one, yeah. You want to be accommodating, but sometimes it leads to some unreasonable stuff. Others need to take (or actually have taken) some responsibility for some aspects of their lives. The reasons for that are twofold: it's a combination of (a) respecting others' autonomy and (b) some selfish stuff, like not stretching yourself out too thin and doing what's fair for yourself.

So, yeah, This, of course, comes up in teaching, too.

I won't beg you to reach out to me for help if you're failing my class but never attend. But I'll gladly do my absolute damndest to try to make sure you understand the material if you contact me and demonstrate that you're trying. I had to learn to stop meeting people 90% of the way (that first thing) and instead roll with around 60-75% (that second thing).

I also structure the semester-long class project so that a student should iterate back and forth with me on it, and once we were both happy with it they'd get full marks. About a quarter of the class took me up on that; the rest just ended up turning something in without talking to me first. I gave reminders about the project during lectures from time to time, then started expressing snarkily about how I got sick of giving reminders, with more and more snarky exasperation as time went on, to the point where I was outright saying that if you hadn't paid any attention to the project by a certain point you were probably fucked.

I say "exasperation," but I don't know if that's the right word. If I were trying to cater to everyone, I'd have been exasperated. It was more like bafflement and.. groanworthiness..?

But, still, I even asked some of the better students whether they thought I was truly getting the message about the project across -- that the goal was to iterate. I wanted to make sure that that was actually clear, that it wasn't a problem primarily on my end.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Because I work at a school, I get to see some very positive examples of Fe, so perhaps these anecdotes will be helpful.

Our office manager is a Fe-dom, and she has a smile that feels like a gingerbread cookie. She is friendly and fair to everyone, and has a clear sense of how to establish social boundaries with the many people she has to deal with. She has a lot of common sense about how to organize getting people scheduled and payment, and I learn a lot from her on certain details of interacting with people. There is an immediacy about her and I never feel like her friendliness is strategy, but rather it has a clarity, fairness, and professionalism about it. There is a feeling of social intelligence about her as she creates positive environments when dealing with potentially cantankerous people. Children are drawn to her and often color pictures for her.

There is also another Fe-dom teacher I've learned from who knows how to manage groups of children to create positive behaviors. She takes the naughtiest child and makes them her special helper. She said it makes sense since the other children are already inclined to follow the naughty kid. She also maintains a fun, happy, welcoming feeling about her when interacting with people. She also knows how to put a little social pressure on others to get results.

My mother and sister are both Fi-doms and they are deeply caring about people, but not group oriented. My mother was good at understanding each individual child in her kindergarten classroom, but she was never socially oriented for herself. They both listen to people's troubles and sometimes people are drawn to them because when they interact with specific individuals, they are quite non-judgmental, but instead see a complexity of who they are. When talking to my sister about people, she has this amazing depth of understanding. She is brilliant with thinking abstractly and philosophically about values and emotions and can make sense of people she has never even met based on their core patterns and motivations.
 

OrangeAppled

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This is my experience as well. I know what people appreciate and tailor my interactions to that on an individual basis. But I get no sense of emotional fulfilment or satisfaction from the act; I sometimes wish I did as some sort of motivating force at least. It's more about a sense of doing the right thing. That even includes offering an emotional reaction to those who need it most in order to feel good about what they are doing for me. I guess that sounds like falsity, but there's no sense to me in not giving people what they need when it doesn't cause any other issue for myself. There's this sense of just doing what I do silently and unrecognized, and I'm ok with that most of the time.

Once in a while though, when a certain type of giving is taken for granted, as though a person is OWED what I do, that's when I can get pissed.

It is interesting how some people accuse ExFJs of being fake at times ( ::guilty:: ), and yet, this sort of thing could be seen as fake for some of us IxFPs (given it is somewhat typical).

When people are upset, the fact that I rarely experience their emotion - but tend to stay calm and experience empathy as a mostly mental process - can actually have a calming effect on others. I don't feel emotion in a physical way, but I am usually taking them seriously (ie intently listening), so it seems to soothe people. Other times, I may get accused of being detached because I am not "taking on" their emotion as my own.

This doesn't mean I don't get disturbed by others' emotional energy (ie the reason I put headphones on in public at times), but unless I am involved, it doesn't make me mirror their anger or happiness, etc.

This mostly presents a problem when someone is happy, and I don't appear to be happy for them. I am, in principle, but I don't have "happy feelings" in my body. In those times, I have learned myself to put on a "happy face" and use a "happy voice", but for me it is not a natural emotional expression, and I suspect people pick up on the contrivance.

In this way, I have accepted how many ExFJs also act out of a rational principle even if I can tell their emotional state doesn't match it. To me, it just seems like they do this more often and out of desire to build connections. For me, it always falls back to discerning what someone needs/desires and feeling pulled out of principle.
 

thepink-cloakedninja

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My weird analogy:

Fi = virtue ethics. Focuses on being good rather than doing good. Whatever a moral person would do in any given situation is right.

Fe = Utilitarian ethics. Focuses on doing good rather than being a good person. Whatever benefits the most people is right.
 

Cloudpatrol

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Same.

After reading through this thread, I'm much less "stereotypically" Fe than you are, though I'm definitely an ISFJ.

This is the best way I've found to differentiate from the two:

Fi likes to be a living example of its values. It doesn't impose them on others and it isn't so easily affected by others' differences. It lets it speak for itself.
Fe tries to spread its values to others because it thinks that if others don't value the same things that they do, then what's the point?

I also think Fi and Ti are much more alike than Fi and Fe, both being Ji functions and all.

Well said. I relate to this a lot.

ie. It's HUGELY important to me that if I prepare/eat meat in my own home, it's 'happy meat'. I like to purchase it from a farm where I have visited and know how the animals are treated. The way animals are treated commercially really grosses me out/upsets me.

So, the man in my life assumed that I would impose this on him. Not at all. It doesn't matter to me where he gets his meat or that he is entirely disinterested in the subject.

I don't care what other people do. I care that what I do resonates with what my own beliefs and intentions are. I actually feel a bit frustrated when other's can't 'agree to disagree' or respect differences, because of this. But, learning about Fi and Fe has helped with that: in understanding where others are coming from when they are personally invested in persuading me.
 

Virgo1987

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Thanks for the input! I'm definitely driven and more influenced by my inner morals than seeking approval or being a part of a community. I honestly don't care much about approval or desire to be a part of community at all. But I feel as though I have to take care of the people I love, because that's just what you do.

I can understand and I can pick up on the difference in the relationships I have because of it. I have two friends who are incredibly worried about their appearances and their approval in the world. Well -- I wouldn't call them friends at this point in time because one took my natural response of helping as negative intentions and the other excluded me from her "happy moments" in life, but reaches out when life isn't going her way.

It never really bothered me or that I did a better job when I was younger to say, "one day they'll change and notice" -- but they never did and I guess I grew tired.

A co-worker friend of mine and I were chatting one day. It led to an issue or two with these two friends I mentioned and she said, "and do you know why this happens?" and I said "no" and she said "Because this is the role that you play."

It kind of stuck with me too and then about a week ago I grew hurt all at once and I said to myself -- why? Why should I have to be "this" role? And then I thought, there's nothing at all wrong with being helpful or taking care of people. If someone can't see your kindness or take your kindness for what it is (as well as the bad parts of you), then it's on them.

I don't think it made me angry or bitter, just honestly hurt. It hurt because it feels like I was used. Maybe it always felt that way, but I hadn't come to such a realization.

Well it be easy to stop what comes natural to me? No. That need or that feeling like I just 'have' to help? Hell no it won't. I may never stop all together, but I have drawn back a great deal because I feel like I have feelings like everyone else and those that are closest to me think that I don't. They think I'm able to handle everything and the truth is, I can't handle everything, but when faced with focusing on myself or helping someone else -- I'll help someone else.

So that's the role that I play... but I don't think these "friends" are deserving of it anymore -- and they know as much. At least one of them does. I made it clear that one day they will realize just what a good friend I was to them. Whether they regret that sooner rather than later or even at all -- who knows, but I feel it's the truth.
 
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