[INFJ] INFJ gf feeling guilty, how do I make her feel better?

[EcK]

If their relationship is as serious as it *seems* to be, one party delaying college graduation two years for any reason (particularly one that involves the other s.o.) would at the very least merit a passing discussion. The only reason she found out was because she noticed the course load change and asked --not because he volunteered the information.

I find that odd, and I don't think it's odd to find that odd.

I have an ISTP brother who has been known to strategically avoid such discussions with his s.o. to avoid an argument about whether it's the best course of action because damnit --he doesn't want his good time spoiled or his mind changed. I'm not saying that's what OP did, but I'm saying it merits as much consideration as her being a manipulative loon.

Methinks current responders are shooting from the hip prematurely on this one.

I never thought or implied that she's a manipulative loon. Why would I think that? I only have information from his side, so from his side that's what I recommend. If she came on the thread and gave her perspective then I'd tell her how to deal with it. I obviously don't have the whole picture but I frankly don't care enough to dig into it

 

[EcK]

What I'm saying is, your current situation is pretty minor, relatively speaking. Think about a more critical matter. Is this behavior ok with you? For some xNFJ's, the idea that they are wrong about how another person feels is unthinkable. The idea that someone would resist their manipulation attempts to do it their way is an affront. It's not that it's always malevolent manipulation, many times it's not. But to them, none of it is, they know you better than you, that's why it's so difficult for them to believe they're wrong.

My infj SO always says "i know how you think' It's funny to see her face when she sees that she's wrong despite my telling her as much.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm an ISTP and she's INFJ. We had an argument lately because I gave up taking more courses for the semester (each course has a separate fee payment) because I had to pay off the balance from our travelling expenses in the summer. I'm paying the larger part as I'm working and she's a student with no income, and I'm completely fine with it as the memories we had are invaluable and she means a lot to me.
She found out that I had been putting off the courses (which are only available every other semester, so I'm in a position such that I won't be graduating until two years later. To her it sounds like a colossal waste of time and lack of efficiency and she's extremely upset mostly due to the fact that she's had a part in this. According to her if she hadn't insisted on the trip and other miscellanous wants, I would have had the money to pay for more courses and could have graduated next year.
How do I tell her it's not her fault? She's going as far as saying her presence has affected my life and it would be best if she stops causing any more delays in my life. What she doesn't accept is that she is worth more than anything else.
I try to tell her it's ok and that she's only worried for me, and I will fix it. Then she says she feels that she's being controlling about how to live my life and hates it and is guilty all over again. (her self esteem about this is caused by her previous breakups all because of her controlling the other person too much) I'm at a loss. I don't hate her for it. How do I ease her guilt?

She feels like you did something you didn't want to do because of her. The is like the gift of the Magi, or something.

You can't ease her guilt and it isn't your job too. You explained your reasons why you did what you did in the OP. Have you told her in those exact words?

I don't like her harping on it or drawing out the "woe is me/attention back to me" thing. Which, I'm with an NF...they can do that.

As long as you are comfortable with the choices you made, then that is it. Its not her life or her decision to make, even though she is a part of your life.

The guilt thing could be a recognition of her wanting the best (her view of that) and somehow she didn't intuit that you were making those choices without her. So she's feeling guilty that she should've seen that/noticed it. (Its also what makes NF's so pampering of us. They anticipate our needs well...too much sometimes!).

Explain to her that there is no way of this happening. You did what you wanted. You have no regrets (from the sound of it?). That you appeciate her input but it wasn't her call to make. You can't do anything else.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

[MENTION=30311]notebook[/MENTION]
That does really sound like an INFJ negative feedback loop. Rather than trying to figure out the right way to tell her to stop having the feeling, I'd address the feeling directly. Can you divert the conversation first by a simple reassurance, but then just go for the silly? Make a joke, watch a funny movie or something? Sometimes a surprise and distraction into a happier feeling can help. The neurological wiring of her brain might be geared for powerful loops that don't want to break. Continuing to circle around in those loops with detailed revisions in conversation may not help, but to surprise the brain with completely new pathways can.

When I've gotten stuck in negative loops I invented a therapy where I deliberately try to think of completely random, disassociated ideas like: bicycle, orange, pillow, page 49 in a book, telephone wires, 4:00 on Mondays, kites getting stuck in a tree, black chair, etc.

 

[Norrsken]

Not sure why do INFJs seem to think they know what's best for others?

It's a horrible habit for INFJs. I think this is just the Ni and the Fe showing it's bad side and think they know everything and that other people should just listen to them, rejecting any outside opinions that may endanger their overall message. I've fallen into this trap way too many times myself. It is so dangerously seductive for me to get on my high horse and think that I know better, when I really just don't.

Your INFJ lady no doubt is feeling incredible guilt. She thinks that because of her, you are failing, and that can't be good for her (I'm assuming) already fragile self esteem. I love knowing that my actions and mere prescense make the people in my life do better and to make good choices to move forward with themselves and their own lives. If I felt that I was holding someone back, I would want to run away, too. I think you need to sit her down and have a frank discussion that:

1. You are a full grown adult who can make his own decisions, without her approval, since she is not your mother, nor is she even your wife for that matter. Until you put a ring on it, she needs to trust that you'll do the right thing for yourself.
2. You already have a full time job that, I'm presuming, is stable and gives you a good liveable income. Tell her that this fact won't change at all.
3. Tell her also, that as much as it KILLS HER like it kills the rest of us J-types, that plans DO change, that some things will take some time, and that there's nothing wrong with changing lanes here and there, as long as you'll reach the final destination someday. Again, this will kill her, but if she has any maturity, she'll at least try and hear you out.

I've had a similar issue with another INFJ (best friend) in the past. They would get a bit mad when the people they really care about don't follow their idea of a good timeline.

You wouldn't get it. You're a P-type.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

My infj SO always says "i know how you think' It's funny to see her face when she sees that she's wrong despite my telling her as much.

I realize that this is a trait associated with INFJs, but when I went through a tough time in life I was surrounded by Fi and Ti-doms who totally did that to me. It happened even to the point they would describe what I was thinking and feeling and then tell me how that made them think and feel. I would sit back a smidge gob-smacked and think, 'if we're going to have a fight, shouldn't I be involved? or maybe it's better this way because I might actually prefer to not be involved.'

I also find that a common dynamic between men and women is one in which a woman's perceptions are assumed incorrect by men because they each see different things. Depending on who is most dominant in the relationship, one side is "true" while the other is "whack-a-doo". Sometimes different perceptions can both be correct, but are both caricatures of actual, objective reality based on selective perception of each individual human being. There are many times that I am both right and wrong about something. It may seem inconceivable, but in subjective situations one can actually be both at the same time.

 

[EcK]

I realize that this is a trait associated with INFJs, but when I went through a tough time in life I was surrounded by Fi and Ti-doms who totally did that to me. It happened even to the point they would describe what I was thinking and feeling and then tell me how that made them think and feel. I would sit back a smidge gob-smacked and think, 'if we're going to have a fight, shouldn't I be involved? or maybe it's better this way because I might actually prefer to not be involved.'

I also find that a common dynamic between men and women is one in which a woman's perceptions are assumed incorrect by men because they each see different things. Depending on who is most dominant in the relationship, one side is "true" while the other is "whack-a-doo". Sometimes different perceptions can both be correct, but are both caricatures of actual, objective reality based on selective perception of each individual human being. There are many times that I am both right and wrong about something. It may seem inconceivable, but in subjective situations one can actually be both at the same time.

Well of course one can be both, who the hell couldn't conceive of that, and what is their IQ

More seriously yeah well, F types tend to map out how people 'think/feel' and can have difficulty accepting that your motivation are not the ones they imagine you have.
I've often found that to be the core of disagreements with NFPs. Essentially with them assuming I'm motivated by some sort of feeling and not accepting my statements to the contrary (ie: 'no eck I know you better than you do despite the fact that I don't know you at all and we've barely ever interacted" )

You can find the same issue with T types insisting that their logic is sound, which of course is hillarious when said perosn has a poor grasp on logic to begin with. endlessly amusing.

people can be silly.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Well of course one can be both, who the hell couldn't conceive of that, and what is their IQ

I know people who would have trouble with that idea, so the following is for anyone reading who might want clarification. I guess I mostly just mean that in subjective matter, personal perspectives tend to be partly right and partly wrong. Although, there are some instances where past experience results in a person experiencing reality differently. For example, one person can feel hot and another cold when the thermastat is set to 70, so is it hot or cold? It's literally both.

More seriously yeah well, F types tend to map out how people 'think/feel' and can have difficulty accepting that your motivation are not the ones they imagine you have.
I've often found that to be the core of disagreements with NFPs. Essentially with them assuming I'm motivated by some sort of feeling and not accepting my statements to the contrary (ie: 'no eck I know you better than you do despite the fact that I don't know you at all and we've barely ever interacted" )

You can find the same issue with T types insisting that their logic is sound, which of course is hillarious when said perosn has a poor grasp on logic to begin with. endlessly amusing.

people can be silly.

You can definitely see it play out online. People often tell each other what they are thinking or feeling, how they are motivated, if they are hypocrites, etc. in online debates. People who have strong inner worlds and low-empathy often rely on constructing inner models of other people in order to interact. When T's do it, then it is more of an analytical construct, a theory of mind construct without as much affective empathy. On this forum, I have noticed that the particularly aggressive INFs will tell other people what they are thinking and feeling. I've seen both INFJs and INFPs do this, but typically it is the ones who are more aggressive overall.

I make inner constructs of people, but am often uncomfortable drawing solid, immovable conclusions. Sometimes I'll have more than one inner construct about a person and with each new piece of information I'll try it out in all the inner constructs to see where it fits. When someone poses a threat I have more certitude about their motivations, and suspect that could be the case for other people. People who feel socially threatened will need to know definitively what they are dealing with, and people who are secure socially can risk more openness to not draw conclusions about other people. I tend to have hopes about the underlying good nature of people, while at the same time being a bit pessimistic, and so I tend to have at least two inner constructs for each person that toggles between my inner hopes and fears.

And then it seems like we are all blinded to one another and forever doomed to live in existential isolation of never knowing or comprehending the true nature of anyone.

 

[EcK]

I know people who would have trouble with that idea, so the following is for anyone reading who might want clarification. I guess I mostly just mean that in subjective matter, personal perspectives tend to be partly right and partly wrong. Although, there are some instances where past experience results in a person experiencing reality differently. For example, one person can feel hot and another cold when the thermastat is set to 70, so is it hot or cold? It's literally both.

You can definitely see it play out online. People often tell each other what they are thinking or feeling, how they are motivated, if they are hypocrites, etc. in online debates. People who have strong inner worlds and low-empathy often rely on constructing inner models of other people in order to interact. When T's do it, then it is more of an analytical construct, a theory of mind construct without as much affective empathy. On this forum, I have noticed that the particularly aggressive INFs will tell other people what they are thinking and feeling. I've seen both INFJs and INFPs do this, but typically it is the ones who are more aggressive overall.

I make inner constructs of people, but am often uncomfortable drawing solid, immovable conclusions. Sometimes I'll have more than one inner construct about a person and with each new piece of information I'll try it out in all the inner constructs to see where it fits. When someone poses a threat I have more certitude about their motivations, and suspect that could be the case for other people. People who feel socially threatened will need to know definitively what they are dealing with, and people who are secure socially can risk more openness to not draw conclusions about other people. I tend to have hopes about the underlying good nature of people, while at the same time being a bit pessimistic, and so I tend to have at least two inner constructs for each person that toggles between my inner hopes and fears.

And then it seems like we are all blinded to one another and forever doomed to live in existential isolation of never knowing or comprehending the true nature of anyone.

I find humor helps

 

[notebook]

The guilt thing could be a recognition of her wanting the best (her view of that) and somehow she didn't intuit that you were making those choices without her. So she's feeling guilty that she should've seen that/noticed it. (Its also what makes NF's so pampering of us. They anticipate our needs well...too much sometimes!).

Explain to her that there is no way of this happening. You did what you wanted. You have no regrets (from the sound of it?). That you appeciate her input but it wasn't her call to make. You can't do anything else.

You're right about her wishing she had noticed in time about the issue. I told her it's not her fault since she trusts me to be mature enough to handle my own life and she has so far kept out of aggressively wanting to poke into every detail and make sure I'm doing well in everything.

 

[notebook]

[MENTION=30311]notebook[/MENTION]
That does really sound like an INFJ negative feedback loop. Rather than trying to figure out the right way to tell her to stop having the feeling, I'd address the feeling directly. Can you divert the conversation first by a simple reassurance, but then just go for the silly? Make a joke, watch a funny movie or something? Sometimes a surprise and distraction into a happier feeling can help. The neurological wiring of her brain might be geared for powerful loops that don't want to break. Continuing to circle around in those loops with detailed revisions in conversation may not help, but to surprise the brain with completely new pathways can.

When I've gotten stuck in negative loops I invented a therapy where I deliberately try to think of completely random, disassociated ideas like: bicycle, orange, pillow, page 49 in a book, telephone wires, 4:00 on Mondays, kites getting stuck in a tree, black chair, etc.

I find that distractions work sometimes when it's not too big a deal to her and she's just mildly annoyed, but when she's making a huge fuss about something she'd refuse any attempt at a different topic, want to keep going on and on about the issue until she calms down, realises it's not the end of the world and she can make things better.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

You're right about her wishing she had noticed in time about the issue. I told her it's not her fault since she trusts me to be mature enough to handle my own life and she has so far kept out of aggressively wanting to poke into every detail and make sure I'm doing well in everything.

Yeah. Once I saw your type, I figured you wanted to do what you did. That it wasn't outside pressures and you really were looking to ease her mind because you love her.

Try to force an ISTP to do something they don't want! It won't happen.

Best of luck!

 

[notebook]

She thinks that because of her, you are failing, and that can't be good for her (I'm assuming) already fragile self esteem. I love knowing that my actions and mere prescense make the people in my life do better and to make good choices to move forward with themselves and their own lives. If I felt that I was holding someone back, I would want to run away, too.

It's good to hear from an INFJ pov. What you said is true. She told me her ex (INFP) was an intelligent person who had poor money management (he came from a rich family) and no strong life goals or any direction in life. That I was more "stable" to her and that she could see a future with me unlike with him. She broke up with him because she tried to put her strong "J" beliefs all over him and he either avoided or lied to her to resist her idea of the best timeline for them, so she gave up despite having a strong connection with him. Her guilt and self-esteem issues mostly came from that relationship because he cheated once on her when she was too controlling of how he should live his life and he could not bear the arguments.
She told me that she's struggling to not make the same controlling mistakes and risk our relationship going down the same path, but she also doesn't want me to fail because of her. When we were arguing she also made a point to say that the INFP ex is leading a better life now, which somehow justifies that she's the root of all problems.

 

[Norrsken]

It's good to hear from an INFJ pov. What you said is true. She told me her ex (INFP) was an intelligent person who had poor money management (he came from a rich family) and no strong life goals or any direction in life. That I was more "stable" to her and that she could see a future with me unlike with him. She broke up with him because she tried to put her strong "J" beliefs all over him and he either avoided or lied to her to resist her idea of the best timeline for them, so she gave up despite having a strong connection with him. Her guilt and self-esteem issues mostly came from that relationship because he cheated once on her when she was too controlling of how he should live his life and he could not bear the arguments.
She told me that she's struggling to not make the same controlling mistakes and risk our relationship going down the same path, but she also doesn't want me to fail because of her. When we were arguing she also made a point to say that the INFP ex is leading a better life now, which somehow justifies that she's the root of all problems.

I feel for her. I also feel for you, too. I think this is also just a deep fear she has of herself that she is somehow a bad fruit if she failed at making her prior relationship work, and fails this current one with you too, that she is overall terrible as a human being and I definitely understand her paranoia. This is going to be difficult for you to tear down the INFJ walls, as our walls are stubbornly hard in general; she'll fight you with her Ni, but you should try and use your own Fe to communicate with her Fe, and at least try and have an open discussion with her to see if you two can strike a happy medium.

Can you take online courses in the meantime? I've done it before, it was fun! I'm not 100% sure of how your college works, I'm just assuming all colleges and universities have online opportunities for everyone who cannot physically appear at the schools due to time and distance restraints.

 

[EcK]

You're right about her wishing she had noticed in time about the issue. I told her it's not her fault since she trusts me to be mature enough to handle my own life and she has so far kept out of aggressively wanting to poke into every detail and make sure I'm doing well in everything.

I don't think an infj would 'aggressively wanting to poke into..' that's like having an entp 'take your feelings as seriously as facts and discuss with you without ever using debate tactics' - unlikely

 

[EcK]

I find that distractions work sometimes when it's not too big a deal to her and she's just mildly annoyed, but when she's making a huge fuss about something she'd refuse any attempt at a different topic, want to keep going on and on about the issue until she calms down, realises it's not the end of the world and she can make things better.

What makes you think she's an infj btw. self tested ?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

More seriously yeah well, F types tend to map out how people 'think/feel' and can have difficulty accepting that your motivation are not the ones they imagine you have.
I've often found that to be the core of disagreements with NFPs. Essentially with them assuming I'm motivated by some sort of feeling and not accepting my statements to the contrary (ie: 'no eck I know you better than you do despite the fact that I don't know you at all and we've barely ever interacted" )

This ^

I had to 1st become aware of the dangers of doing this {After hearing "Actually you don't know what I am thinking/why I am doing that" one too many times and stopping to wonder 'how am I the problem in this dynamic'?}

Then, I had to literally take a couple courses in Critical Thinking to teach myself how to practically question my assumptions and think of alternative options or scenarios.

Even still, I have to beware (be aware ) to consciously remember that I don't know what is in another's mind and the answer may not have even occurred to me

 

[EcK]

This ^

I had to 1st become aware of the dangers of doing this {After hearing "Actually you don't know what I am thinking/why I am doing that" one too many times and stopping to wonder 'how am I the problem in this dynamic'?}

Then, I had to literally take a couple courses in Critical Thinking to teach myself how to practically question my assumptions and think of alternative options or scenarios.

Even still, I have to beware (be aware ) to consciously remember that I don't know what is in another's mind and the answer may not have even occurred to me

Yup I came with the 'critical thinking' add-on pre-installed, they had to retrofit it into my 'heart socket' - using up half of my 'feelings' ports though.

Win/Win

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I find that distractions work sometimes when it's not too big a deal to her and she's just mildly annoyed, but when she's making a huge fuss about something she'd refuse any attempt at a different topic, want to keep going on and on about the issue until she calms down, realises it's not the end of the world and she can make things better.

Before responding I want to clarify with disclaimer that I can't know your situation having never met either one of you, so this is based on general knowledge of relationships and emotional health.

Realize that when the person you love is dismissing your emotions as absurd, unreasonable, and crazy, that it often hurts far more than the original source of pain. If you are communicating frustration and dismissal of her feelings, the result will be to exacerbate negative feelings. You may be contributing to the negative emotional loop by being dismissive. If you want to strengthen your bond with her, help to resolve these emotions, you will need to sit patiently and listen with respect and empathy until you can get your head around how and why she is feeling the way that she is. There is always a reason because emotions are not random. Every single feeling is connected to psychology and physiology, so when you love someone, you respect them and make an effort to understand.

Dismissal = alienation