[Jungian Cognitive Functions] INJs and Extraverted Sensing

[Martian Manifesto]

I tend to go this route because if I don't I go the other route, which I detest. It's supposedly the ESTP shadow in times of stress but if it just continues what does that mean? It's more of a lifestyle.

If it continues then the INFJ will become very "good" at Se. Characteristically this is a person who spends much of there time in the shadow. Even if it is channeled into pure (religious) or productive (psychotic cleaning binges, psycotic workout binges, psychotic organizing and preparing binges, psychotic finding flaws in other people behavior, etc, etc, etc) activities, the person will still be wallowing in some serious shadow energy and will usually project this onto others. When INFJs are in their shadow and they take the route of "controlling" it, they usually turn into real jerks about whatever area this is. Very very fault finding. If an INFJ is fault finding constantly, even if the faults are possible valid, then that INFJ is in the shadow.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Not if you realise that you need it at that time, I guess...I can cry like a baby knowing that I need to let it out, but I also realise that I'll be back to "normal" the next morning. Or maybe you mean something else.

Martian, I can see the binge aspect, but not really the Se aspect of it. It's mostly an escape into a non-reality for me.

Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!

 

[Haphazard]

Martian, I thought everybody did that?

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Martian, I thought everybody did that?

Of course, we can all have shadow aspects in any of the functions. What makes it so noticeable in the INJs is the intensity. If it is pleasant then yes, this is typical of INJ. In fact, if you like I can get that section from the book where the rest is from. Perhaps the misunderstanding is that the Se is always negative? It's not, that was just the focus here. INJs are SUPPOSSED to use Se for zoning out. INFJs often like to gaze at nature while taking a nice long walk. This is good. It is a good way to get out of our Ni heads for a while. These three "grip" behaviors are manifestations of the shadow in type when they feel they are losing control. Control of Se is a core fear of INJs, so it is only natural to obsess and want to control it. All types have a way of shutting down. No type is immune and neither is any person. So if these ways aren't the way then there would be others. There is no type who is "okay" with things that bother their inferior functions and all have "go to" coping mechanisms.

 

[Uytuun]

Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!

Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?

* Absolutely correct. That is why it is a bad thing to do. Although it has been explained to me that the inferior function acts as a "weight" in some instances to the dominant function. In the case of INJs, the analogy was given to me that Ni is like a balloon that gets bigger and takes you higher the longer you give it "air"(go inside uninterupted). Se is necessarily "heavy" in order to weigh down the opposite function. This can be done in a controlled way by consciously adding Se (nice long walk) onto your Ni so that you are still in touch with reality. It can also be done not so nice, as in Se is being hurled at you and perforating your Ni balloon. This rough way of interacting with the Se causes "turbulence".

When I read this book, it sounded like the author was describing this turbulence exactly with this "in the grip of the inferior function" theory. I was like A ha, that makes total sense. But I could be like waaaaaaayyyyy effing off If you can explain more please do, I am eager to learn.

* I can try and get the stuff on how INJs use the inferior function in a positive way. There is some time spent on that, but I remember it wasn't as much as the time spent on the "eruptions of grip behavior". That was the main focus of the book, although other stuff was touched on to give a global perspective

 

[entropie]

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)


Quote:
Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: "I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me." An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described "obsessing about details." He gave as an example:

When I'm using power tools that can cause injury, I will spend an inordinate amount of energy making sure that I'm not going to inadvertently hurt myself when I turn the thing on. I will triple-check to make sure my fingers are out of the way, etc. Usually I take in the world more globally and have less concern about details until I need them.

"I'm more likely to have accidents," said an INTJ. "I'm robotic, forget things, say things backwards;' I'm obsessed with a thought and can't get it out of my mind. I try to control situations and people and engage in strange behavior, like checking on things," said an INTJ woman. And another INTJ woman said, "I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function aqnd make decisions--sort of paralyzed."

An INFJ said, "I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do tha thing i thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds." "I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly," reported another INFJ. "I nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud."

An INTJ recalled the following from his childhood and adolescence:

When my studies were not going too well I would start to develop detailed tables of data, or drawings to support technical/science answers. These were frequently in too great detail, taking a lot of time and usually out of all proportion to the task ad the length of the answers sought--or even irrelevant to the original questions.

Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.


Quote:
Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming "self-centered" and "self-indulgent" when they are in the grip--a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

An INTJ described the experience this way:

There is a clear preliminary state where I am totally apart from the real world. I am not even an observer, and I can completely ignore anything real. It's a nice fantasy, that's all--just abosrbing. But later I become excessively indulgent, getting totally immersed in physical experiences--eating, pulp fiction, TV. But I don't enjoy it. It feels like a dangerous roller coaster, but I'm immobilized and can't get off.

An INFJ said, "I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something--one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things." Another said, "I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I'm late for everything." An INTJ said her pattern is to overeat, fell guilty about it, wake up in the night and feel worse, get too little sleep, causing her to feel more vulnerable, and then eat more. Another INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: "I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!" she said.


Quote:
Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

An INTJ said, "I start tripping over things and feel out of control in the external world. I feel like I'm under a dark cloud. I get hung up on some false fact and distort it. I get stressed out about time--too many things and not enough time. I attack others with words and then feel guilty." An INFJ described herself as "shutting down, communicating very little. I misplace things, especially keys and watches. I'm very harsh, critical, not diplomatic. I lose my temper, obsess about details, organize, reorganize, yet nothing gets done."

Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. "I'm moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger," said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: "I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone." Another said, "I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the 'conflict' and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated."

The altered state of any inferior function is typically accompanied by a lessening of social controls and therefore more frequent expressions of anger. However, the character of the anger may be different for different types. For INTJs and INFJs the "cause" of distress is often one or more "objects" in the environment. The anger directed at either things or people may therefore be more focused, intense, and extreme than with other inferior functions. Introverted intuitive types may be unable to recognize alternative possibilities so that their perspective becomes extremely narrow. This tunnel vision and externalization of blame can produce ruthless results.

One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there." An INFJ observed, "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have not energy to be bothered with anyone else."

I know this does not help anyone, maybe not directly.

But this thread gave me a complete new view on the matter at hand.

Pretty intresting vicious circle there.

 

[unconvinced]

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Quote:
Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.


Quote:
Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

An INTJ described the experience this way:

Quote:
Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there."

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

 

[entropie]

I found myself, too , after reading it, thinking if INTJ and INFJ are the insane membrane of the galaxy

Maybe a complex personality needs for a complex description

 

[Kasper]

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

Couldn't agree more.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

It does seem to be saying this is the accepted behaviour of Se or whatever.

 

[Haphazard]

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.

Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.

 

[unconvinced]

The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.

well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.

Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.

agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.

 

[Haphazard]

well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.

True.

agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.

Do you really believe that?

Disorders are... well. Thrown around. Many times irresponsibly. Disorders as labels can do the exact same thing.

What I see from this is which way negative Se leans the structure, not that the structure has fallen... and also, there are a lot of descriptions, I remember, with enneagram, that try to play them as pathological. This may be the same way.

Being comfortable is the main goal. Whether they are indicative of disorders or not is frankly beside the point.

 

[entropie]

There is a point. That would have been the point why I accepted the text.

Not everyone sees things proclaimed as disorders as disorders. One can perceive things differently. What can be good and what can be bad.

Some people see the very description of a possible natural state as an opportunity for change.

 

[Apollanaut]

I own both editions of Naomi Quenk's books on the inferior function and tend to agree with her descriptions of how inferior Se manifests in INJs.

In fact, her descriptions were so on the nail for me that it was the final verification of my type as INFJ.

That being said, each INJ will manifest the negative qualities of Se in different ways, according to our interests, past history and current life circumstances. For what it's worth, here are my personal descriptions.

1. Obsessive focus on external data.

This hits me when I spend too long doing detailed work. Unfortunately, my job requires this from me. I am a perfectionist when it comes to detail, I obsess over minute, fine details, trying to get them as perfect as possible. When I check other people's work I can spot the smallest typos and spelling mistakes, but I can get very defensive and upset when I make such errors. If I'm tired, I can go round and round in circles, trying to perfect my work, but actually stuffing it up and making more errors as I start to lose control.

At home, I'm likely to go into obsessive cleaning/tidying mode - unable to break the cycle and get the downtime I desparately need until I've completed a demanding list of chores. I get annoyed if my partner interrupts me when I'm in this state - I can easily tip over into stage 3) anger at this point.

2. Overindulgence.

Happens a lot when I've had too many interruptions or changes of plans in one day. This is when I "zone out" and get stuck on some sensory activity. This can be binge eating, but is more likely to involve a visual stimulus for me. For example, I surf the internet for hours, or scan through TV channels unendingly. At first, this can be pleasurable, but If I get stuck it can be become ver unpleasant. The speed of surfing/skimming tends to increase, and the info which attracts me gets more and more shallow (crap reality TV, for example). When I'm in this state, what I really need is sleep, but I can find myself staying up half the night and then getting very upset with myself for doing this. I may be so wound up that I cannot get to sleep at all, in which case the behaviour is likely to carry over to the next day (Urghhh!!).

3. Adversarial Attitude.

This happens if I've spent too long extraverting and is most noticable if there is conflict around me. I build up a charge of physical energy in my body which eventually has to be released. I have evolved enough that I can feel when this is happening, and will state this out loud, but I cannot prevent the energy buildup. It's best if I can escape from the stressful situation completely. This allows me to dissipate the energy by walking at a fast pace until I feel better.

If I am prevented from doing this, then sooner or later there will be an explosion from me. I am a gentle person by nature, so I will not hurt others, but I may pick up objects and slam them down hard, throw things at walls and rant and rave out loud. I've been known to start hitting myself on a few occasions. At the same time this is happening, part of me is furious that I have allowed myself to get so worked up, and this tends to make things even worse. I normally end by dramatically storming out of a room, slamming the door violently behind me.

All of these behaviours are clear warning signals to INJs that we are out of balance in our lives. Living with dominant Ni can be very intense and all-consuming at times (I have been known to forget to eat when caught up in Ni): the antidote is to get out and have some fun, relaxation and healthy self-indugence. Best therapy for me is being in touch with nature, but a good TV show (comedy or Sci-Fi/fantasy is second best.

If we don't take the time to do these things, then our inferior Se will rise up, take control and force us to do them in an unhealthy or obsessive way instead.

 

[sleepless]

I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.

 

[Haphazard]

This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

I own both editions of Naomi Quenk's books on the inferior function and tend to agree with her descriptions of how inferior Se manifests in INJs.

In fact, her descriptions were so on the nail for me that it was the final verification of my type as INFJ.

That being said, each INJ will manifest the negative qualities of Se in different ways, according to our interests, past history and current life circumstances. For what it's worth, here are my personal descriptions.

1. Obsessive focus on external data.

This hits me when I spend too long doing detailed work. Unfortunately, my job requires this from me. I am a perfectionist when it comes to detail, I obsess over minute, fine details, trying to get them as perfect as possible. When I check other people's work I can spot the smallest typos and spelling mistakes, but I can get very defensive and upset when I make such errors. If I'm tired, I can go round and round in circles, trying to perfect my work, but actually stuffing it up and making more errors as I start to lose control.

At home, I'm likely to go into obsessive cleaning/tidying mode - unable to break the cycle and get the downtime I desparately need until I've completed a demanding list of chores. I get annoyed if my partner interrupts me when I'm in this state - I can easily tip over into stage 3) anger at this point.

2. Overindulgence.

Happens a lot when I've had too many interruptions or changes of plans in one day. This is when I "zone out" and get stuck on some sensory activity. This can be binge eating, but is more likely to involve a visual stimulus for me. For example, I surf the internet for hours, or scan through TV channels unendingly. At first, this can be pleasurable, but If I get stuck it can be become ver unpleasant. The speed of surfing/skimming tends to increase, and the info which attracts me gets more and more shallow (crap reality TV, for example). When I'm in this state, what I really need is sleep, but I can find myself staying up half the night and then getting very upset with myself for doing this. I may be so wound up that I cannot get to sleep at all, in which case the behaviour is likely to carry over to the next day (Urghhh!!).

3. Adversarial Attitude.

This happens if I've spent too long extraverting and is most noticable if there is conflict around me. I build up a charge of physical energy in my body which eventually has to be released. I have evolved enough that I can feel when this is happening, and will state this out loud, but I cannot prevent the energy buildup. It's best if I can escape from the stressful situation completely. This allows me to dissipate the energy by walking at a fast pace until I feel better.

If I am prevented from doing this, then sooner or later there will be an explosion from me. I am a gentle person by nature, so I will not hurt others, but I may pick up objects and slam them down hard, throw things at walls and rant and rave out loud. I've been known to start hitting myself on a few occasions. At the same time this is happening, part of me is furious that I have allowed myself to get so worked up, and this tends to make things even worse. I normally end by dramatically storming out of a room, slamming the door violently behind me.

All of these behaviours are clear warning signals to INJs that we are out of balance in our lives. Living with dominant Ni can be very intense and all-consuming at times (I have been known to forget to eat when caught up in Ni): the antidote is to get out and have some fun, relaxation and healthy self-indugence. Best therapy for me is being in touch with nature, but a good TV show (comedy or Sci-Fi/fantasy is second best.

If we don't take the time to do these things, then our inferior Se will rise up, take control and force us to do them in an unhealthy or obsessive way instead.

Thank you so much for sharing! I am so similar but the manifestations are slightly different as all INFJs are of course diffirent. But the similarities are staggering. When I read her book I was blown away. Her book and the book by Lenore Thomson (Personality Type: An Owner's Manual) have been extremely helpful in helping me understand how my levers work.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.

True that.

Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Excerpt from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk:

EXPRESSIONS THROUGH INTERESTS & HOBBIES

For Introverted Intuitive types, relaxing their dominant and auxillary functions may occur through such sensual pleasures as eating, exercising and gardening. One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn and winter. Another like to "go somewhere beautiful - mountains, ocean water". INFJs often mention the pleasant luxury of an afternoon nap. Other Introverted Intuitive types describe craving very hot curries,or escaping by becoming totally absorbed in a mystery or adventure novel. "Escape literature" seems to be a particularly effective way for Introverted Intuitive types to suspend their intense inner focus and vicariously enjoy adventures in the external environment.

An INTJ reports that at times she feels exeptionally relaxed and able to focus totally on observing her environment. At these times she is able to step away from her usual goal-oriented approach and does nto feel she must immediately do something with her observations. Often doing aerobic exercise precedes and stimulates this relaxed state. An INTJ who is a passionate bird watcher tries to arrange his worldwide consulting work to take advantage of bird-watching opportunities. Other Introverted Intuitive types take up hobbies that require careful attention to details and memory for facts, such as photography, woodworking, furniture refinishing or cooking.

Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shape of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described talking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.

Using Sensing for relaxation seems to be particularly enjoyable because there is no pressure to acheive any particular goal. "Gardening is an activity I love. I don't worry about performance or doing it perfectly", said an INFJ. "I like pulling weeds, smelling flowers, removing dead flower heads, admiring the colors. All of this nurtures me. Another INFJ enjoys the aesthetic aspects of gardening, the shapes and colors of the flowers, as oppossed to the straightness of the planting rows. And an INTJ's hobby is making flower arrangements. She tries to achieve an overall look with the colors of the flowers, rarely wanting to learn the names of the various blossoms.

*******************

The emphasis on free flowing and not competitive or performance driven is completely true for me. Once that happens the Se will not be enjoyable. As an INFJ, I "compete" in life with my Ni and Fe.

Also, this seems to back up Haphazard's thoughts as far as not meditating so much. It seems like INJs prefer an active, yet not threatening form of active "meditation", as oppossed to the more traditional passive kind. The passive kind lets my Ni take over, and if I want to relax this can be a bad thing. My Ni is very dominant. So relaxation for me often takes the form of a "breather" from my Ni. This requires something stimulating to distract (Se) but not bothersome (stressful Se).