[MBTI General] Are xNFJ's really as nice/caring as they appear?

[nightning]

Oh, they do care, but they also care selfishly. A lot of what they do is just so they can go on believing that they are great people underneath their idealist criteria.

Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing. Except to admit we're selfishly nice is unacceptable. So we cover everything up by acting "unselfishly" nice. Self-giving taken to the extreme.

cuz I know you'd take all of that away from me in 0.05 seconds NFJs can be as quick to scorn as they are to love!

Despite what any INFJ might say, there's only so much you can give. Any person we can justifiably cut off from the list we tend to do so. And once you're off the list, forget about getting back in it.

I want to find an INFJ whose love isn't contingent on anything. that'll impress me.

Love from anybody is always contingent on something. If you dig deep down, there's always a gain. However love to INFJ is about as "pure" as you can get. What's gain is well being from the relationship and caring for your partner. It's not contingent directly on the person at all... nor is it on the INFJ.

 

[nozflubber]

Let me clarify the contingent upon anything part, because obviously love can't be random or compeltely non-dependant on something. I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification. Love that isn't justifiable in the NFJ's perfect system, but doesn't have to be

THAT love, I think, is rare for them - they always need to crosscheck things, can't help it.

 

[nightning]

Ah. Well romantic love for INFJ probably isn't... but everything else might be related.

 

[amelie]

Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing. Except to admit we're selfishly nice is unacceptable. So we cover everything up by acting "unselfishly" nice. Self-giving taken to the extreme.

Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?

 

[Tiltyred]

Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?

*nod nod* I fake to the extent that I may not genuinely feel as pleasant as I wish I did or as patient as I wish I did, but that's the key -- as I wish I did. I have ideals for my own behavior. It's got zero to do with wanting to be liked by anybody but myself and god, if it's on a day when I believe in god. It has to do with measuring myself against how good I could be if I could stay in the good zone. This seems to me to be largely a matter of self-discipline, like, I know I could do it if I only tried harder. Of course as I get older, I realize I'm human and I can't, and it's hubris to think I could. But it doesn't keep me from trying.

It's definitely not for the sake of anybody's approval because I prefer to depend on things that are actually reliable, and since we're all human, approval ratings fluctuate, so they become irrelevant as a measure.

 

[Kalach]

If everyone disagreed with your choice, would you change your choice?


(And why not? What's the objective part of the choice in the first place, and how does it withstand other people disagreeing?)

 

[LadyJaye]

Let me clarify the contingent upon anything part, because obviously love can't be random or compeltely non-dependant on something. I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification. Love that isn't justifiable in the NFJ's perfect system, but doesn't have to be

THAT love, I think, is rare for them - they always need to crosscheck things, can't help it.

Sorry, but I don't think you're over here because you're seeking clarity for some point or other concerning NFJ's. The way you've couched your language tells me that you just want to complain ad infinitum about what you perceive to be a personality flaw in a type that you don't really understand. And the things you're saying tells me you don't really want to understand. I see nothing in your posts but criticism, not critical thinking.

Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?

There isn't a single person on planet Earth who is driven by completely altruistic motives. Please people.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

The NFJ's unique interpersonal skills are used for good by some, and evil by others.

Hmmm...a lot of these comments apply to ENFJ. ENFJ and INFJ are very different, it's not a simple change of E vs. I. I have an ENFJ sister, and most people say we are like day and night -- she is outgoing, warm, and fun, and I'm not. I have probably average interpersonal skills, if that. I don't talk to most people, I turn down social events to have more time to spend alone, and I rarely smile. I do well one-on-one, but it may take some time for me to open up.

Most NFJs convince themselves that whatever they're doing is somehow FOR the greater good, but whether or not it's actually good will depend on what sort of morals they absorbed from the environment they grew up in.

Again, applies to ENFJ, mostly. I would never usurp the rights of an individual for the greater good. The idea is alien to me.

Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing.

Disagree.

I don't care if others think I'm nice or not. Who cares about being "nice?" I do things that could be considered nice because it's just in my nature and I don't know any other way to be. Also applies to things that could be considered "not nice."

What's gain is well being from the relationship and caring for your partner. It's not contingent directly on the person at all... nor is it on the INFJ.

Agree.

I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification.

See above.

 

[nightning]

*chuckles* I meet no disrespect when I say this.

Examine your motives a little closer...

If there is NOBODY around to see how you act? Will you still be nice?

Yes. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that there's no observer. You cannot bear to be inconsistent. Reputation can be broken by a single act. That is the reason.

The sense of self for most INFJ is quite externally derived. It's a fault I noticed in myself time and time again. A lot what we defined as desirable behaviour is based on the general's opinion. Fe caves in to please others because their opinions is a part of our self worth...

 

[Lauren Ashley]

If there is NOBODY around to see how you act? Will you still be nice?

I'm nice to others, so I can't be nice if no one is around. I'd just be. If no one's around I'll probably be daydreaming.

The sense of self for most INFJ is quite externally derived. It's a fault I noticed in myself time and time again. A lot what we defined as desirable behaviour is based on the general's opinion. Fe caves in to please others because their opinions is a part of our self worth...

My last work evaluation stated "I think most people are afraid to talk to you. Not that you are a mean person..."

If you are nice to be considered that way, then more power to you. I'm just not.

 

[MetalWounds]

NFJs can draw out sides of your personality that you never knew were there. You can't really do anything about it either, it's gonna happen. I think that's why NFJs get a lot of hate from people...it's a loss of personal control. Before you try to get close to one, you had best truly know yourself.

 

[A Schnitzel]

NFJs can draw out sides of your personality that you never knew were there. You can't really do anything about it either, it's gonna happen.

LOL WUT??

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing. Except to admit we're selfishly nice is unacceptable. So we cover everything up by acting "unselfishly" nice. Self-giving taken to the extreme.

i'm new to functions, but i just got the book functions of type and i've been exploring the meaning of them more. my book calls Fe the Guide. it also says,

"The Fe part of each of us coordinates people and things to harmoniously achieve group and individual goals. Initiating, building, and maintaining personal relationships is a primary goal of the Guide. Loss of personal relationship through disharmony is to be avoided at almost any cost. Even intellectual arguments are normally avoided out of fear that the discussion my turn disharmonious.

The Guide draws out other people's beliefs, emotions, or ideas and tends to focus on what they share with her. Often the Guide will share personal information in an attempt to bond with other people. After identifying other people's needs the Guide will try, when possible, to meet those needs, frequently at the expense of meeting her own needs.

In order to smoothly relate to other people, the extraverted Feeling Guide internalizes cultural values, treats them as if they are personal values, and uses them to drive decisions. When functioning in a group or on a team, the Guide seeks to maintain group harmony and makes sure each person is recognized and taken care of.

Often the Guide attempts to educate other people as to appropriate behaviors in given situations."

i don't see anywhere that Fe craves approval. but i do get a nuance of what you are saying, i believe. it does feel good to me when someone else thinks i'm nice, but it isn't a driving force or motivator for me, it's just a warm fuzzy kind of thing, for me.

Despite what any INFJ might say, there's only so much you can give. Any person we can justifiably cut off from the list we tend to do so. And once you're off the list, forget about getting back in it.

Love from anybody is always contingent on something. If you dig deep down, there's always a gain. However love to INFJ is about as "pure" as you can get. What's gain is well being from the relationship and caring for your partner. It's not contingent directly on the person at all... nor is it on the INFJ.

true, but when i'm at my best, i can give quite a lot.

 

[Kalach]

If everyone disagreed with your choice, would you change your choice?


(And why not? What's the objective part of the choice in the first place, and how does it withstand other people disagreeing?)

K, answer my own question, so you can know, or at least be inveigled to believe, I'm not seeking to discredit...

The truth of human feeling is the objective part. (And while feeling varies from person to person and moment to moment, that just means it's complex, and even if subjective, not that unanalysably so.)

And once the truth is apprehended, suitable/good/valuable feeling can be sought out and promoted.

This is a little different from seeking approval, observing however as we should that approval is quite likely to follow from instantiation of suitable/good/valuable feeling in the other person.


And while these claims are hopelessly apriori for yonder Ti types, do they nonetheless ring any bells?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

K, answer my own question, so you can know, or at least be inveigled to believe, I'm not seeking to discredit...

The truth of human feeling is the objective part. (And while feeling varies from person to person and moment to moment, that just means it's complex, and even if subjective, not that unanalysably so.)

And once the truth is apprehended, suitable/good/valuable feeling can be sought out and promoted.

This is a little different from seeking approval, observing however as we should that approval is quite likely to follow from instantiation of suitable/good/valuable feeling in the other person.


And while these claims are hopelessly apriori for yonder Ti types, do they nonetheless ring any bells?

hey, kalach! i didn't respond to your question the first time cuz i just didn't understand it. (i'm super ditzy). but i really want to respond now, but *cringe* i still don't understand it.

i think i must disagree with the bolded part. the truth of feeling can only, by definition, be subjective, no? feeling: to be conscious of an inward impression, state of mind, or physical condition.

and aren't all feelings and emotions 'true' just by their very existence? i consider all my feelings suitable/good/and valuable even if they are foibled for the most part. or do you mean something else here?

 

[Kalach]

hey, kalach! i didn't respond to your question the first time cuz i just didn't understand it. (i'm super ditzy). but i really want to respond now, but *cringe* i still don't understand it.

i think i must disagree with the bolded part. the truth of feeling can only, by definition, be subjective, no? feeling: to be conscious of an inward impression, state of mind, or physical condition.

I'm working off what I remember reading in a snippet of Jung on extraverted feeling, him saying that extraverted feeling seeks objectivity for the feeling, in some way, the users attaching it to what's out there. And then I'm making up stuff, like, social codes and human states get to be objectively distinguishable via Fe inasmuch as its attached to stuff and evaluates.

And then I'm making up the big one: without this aspect of objectivity to Fe, the best one can hope for is conventional rules for behaviour, so Fe might be criticized as mere approval seeking. Which, apparently, it isn't.

and aren't all feelings and emotions 'true' just by their very existence?

Hidunno. What's the purpose of an INFJ? Obviously not just to kill time feeling the feelings of the world nearby. There's something else. Something about evaluation of feeling. And to be all generic for a moment, Ti is below Fe in NFJ, so "true" will have a nuanced meaning, and when an INFJ claims to be seeking truth, as you guys are sometime want, then you're seeking...?

Health? (Of feeling?) Value? (Which one?) Approval? Maintenance of convention for the purpose of...

 

[mwv6r]

Some people however do assume that I am more in sympathy with them than I truly am because I don't offer a lot of opinions about things that matter unless they are solicited. Most people then assume that I agree with them which isn't true.

Also because we try to put ourself in others' shoes we are less likely to write people off as quickly. This can be construed as caring, when it may be only gathering enough data to make an informed opinion about someone. We often give the benefit of the doubt unless there is an immediate bad gut feeling about the person.

Wow, soooo true! Reading that, I feel like you've been peeking into my brain, lol.

Surprisingly often, I find myself in a position in which I strongly disagree with a friend but if they are upset I let them rant and get what they need to off their chest without disagreeing with them, just because I get the feeling that they need to get their emotions out without judgment.

I also come across as very nonjudgmental because I put myself in others' shoes so much. People who others immediately write off I will give the benefit of the doubt. I've been in situations before in which I was confused how my neutral perception of a person was so different from a friend's negative perception of them, and in those cases I felt within myself a strong desire to get more data. I really take my time when it comes to deciding whether I dislike a person, and I give them a lot opportunities to prove themselves because my ability to empathize makes me very forgiving of others' perceived faults. However, if they cross a line and violate my values they are immediately dead to me -- what I've heard called the "INFJ door slam." Of course with the vast majority of people it never comes to that point, and probably most of those people find me a very "nice" person without really understanding the way my mind works. I do think I'm a nice person, but psychologically it's more complicated than that...

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm working off what I remember reading in a snippet of Jung on extraverted feeling, him saying that extraverted feeling seeks objectivity for the feeling, in some way, the users attaching it to what's out there. And then I'm making up stuff, like, social codes and human states get to be objectively distinguishable via Fe inasmuch as its attached to stuff and evaluates.

And then I'm making up the big one: without this aspect of objectivity to Fe, the best one can hope for is conventional rules for behaviour, so Fe might be criticized as mere approval seeking. Which, apparently, it isn't.




Hidunno. What's the purpose of an INFJ? Obviously not just to kill time feeling the feelings of the world nearby. There's something else. Something about evaluation of feeling. And to be all generic for a moment, Ti is below Fe in NFJ, so "true" will have a nuanced meaning, and when an INFJ claims to be seeking truth, as you guys are sometime want, then you're seeking...?

Health? (Of feeling?) Value? (Which one?) Approval? Maintenance of convention for the purpose of...

yes. i do throw the word Truth around a lot. i wikied it as your question stymied me (as usual!), and in my brief review found that among the many theories of truth, i find, initially, william james' pragmatic theory to ring true for me at this time: "Truth is verifiable to the extent that thoughts and statements correspond with actual things, as well as the extent to which they "hang together," or cohere, as pieces of a puzzle might fit together; these are in turn verified by the observed results of the application of an idea to actual practice."

so perhaps, Fe provides us infj with unlimited fodder to feed our rapacious Ni which cunningly culls colossal amounts of data to make conclusions which tickle Truth's fancy?

does that make any sense? i'm half unconscious now.

 

[Kasper]

An xNFJ ate my entire family. There’s nothing nice or caring about them

 

[A Schnitzel]

An xNFJ ate my entire family. There’s nothing nice or caring about them

Very good point.
They should be burned at the stake.



Or something like that.