[NF] Would the NFP--pursuit of self be shortened by objectivity?

[Blackout]

I was just wondering----



This often seems to be given as advice to us, and as I have attempted doing so, I have come to wonder if much of our quest for self is really all that necessary or is worth spending so much time on? or is it something that idea of objectivity can not wholly define, either?

I know that, when if comes to personal preferences alone, there isn't really that much of a place for it, lol.
I mean, I guess when it comes to this it's just; how much do you value your own personal preferences and feelings?

Was this advice mostly given in terms of conflict management, or when make a decision(from seeing too maybe variables?) difficult?
I guess it goes for Te as well, as that is considered to be a highly objective function.


Honestly, I don't think Te is always correct or exact either. I suppose it's just looking to, or working with already existing external parameters, is it not? I almost feel like it's a cold slap in the face, followed by "your dominate function, does not matter! get with the program!"

Which is great of course, if you don't want to be an infp anymore...

 

[Virtual ghost]

Honestly, I don't think Te is always correct or exact either. I suppose it's just looking to, or working with already existing external parameters, is it not? I almost feel like it's a cold slap in the face, followed by "your dominate function, does not matter! get with the program!"

Which is great of course, if you don't want to be an infp anymore...

Not only that it would .... it should.


If your Te is not giving good results that basically means only two things.

1. You did not master the use of Te.
2. You have a problem in the input of information. What basically means that no matter how well developed your Te is the final results will not be good because you are feeding it with facts and information that may not be true or fit reality. (and Ne-Fi-Si is pretty good at doing that)


(or perhaps you have both problems)

 

[Olm the Water King]

2. You have a problem in the input of information. What basically means that no matter how well developed your Te is the final results will not be good because you are feeding it with facts and information that may not be true or fit reality. (and Ne-Fi-Si is pretty good at doing that)

Can you give an example?

 

[Poki]

What objectivity buys you is a disconnect between self and judgement. This actually helps in certain instances because self does not always lead you down the correct path. Self can become selfish and protective at your expense. There are people who spiral downhill because of what "self" does to them as a whole. you have to be able to balance self and you need to be able to look at both self and objective with an open mind. Objective may not always take you down the path you want and self may not either. With that said, to much objectivity and you end up going down paths your self doesn't care about. A good balance will lead you in the right direction.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Can you give an example?

This is basically acting out of your belief or picture of the world instead that you studdy what is really going on.



Typical NFP problems that I have noticed:


1. They are convinced that they will make it in time somewhere. But in the case that they use their memory/logic they would realize how much each part of the way is long and how fast average person walks, therefore once you do the math its is obvious that they will need 20-30 percent more time than they have scheduled for the task. NFPs have the tendency to squeeze everthing in time due to their optimism and in the end that often ends in wrong judgement. The often simply do not look what is trully ahead of them.


2. They believe everthing is negotionable. In people relations that can be more or less true but reality is much more than intimate relationship between people.
I knew a NFP that had to be late to the train for about 20 times before she realized that the train will not care at all if she is on it or not.


3. They prefere extremes. When there is a scale of possible outcomes that ranges from good to bad NFPs often focus on the upper 25% of outcomes that show the most positive outcomes, also they focus on the lowest 10% that contains the worst "pain, death, tragedy etc." However in doing that they ignore the the middle part of the spectrum as well as parts that border it from upper or lower side, what often turnes into tragedy or a problem. Since those middle parts of the spectrum are the ones that often contain the most likely outcome(s). I understand that if is interesting to be attracted to something special but special happens rarely and that is exacly why it is called special/special circimstance. The correct Te way would be to focus on more likely scenarios than trying to push situation into danger zone just so that you might experience some special outcome. (which may not even be that special in eyes of the other people)


4. Similar is with direction, NFP would like to go in all directions at once, what bloks them and in the end they often stand still or run in circles. In other words they are purely focused on the input and they don't give enough attention to implementation or usefulness. Catching ideas is self-jutified goal to the NFP .... unfortunatly that is not how reality works.


5. NFPs have a hard time separating their wants from what is really good for them. What means that NFP uses their Te to turn their goal/vision into reality instead that they first ask the most basic question and that is "Is this even worth doing in the current situation ?". In my opinion "current situation" is very important term since it defines circumstances, what is the component that many NFPs ignore. In the stereotypical NFP worldview it is basically always good time to do anything. Even if that will greatly increase the challanges but provide no gains. Stereotypical and simple example is that NFPs hangs out on the internet or they watches TV until 4 AM and tomorrow they sleep at work/in school.


6. NFPs are generally messy. One thing is being OCDishly organized but living in a mess may have a psychological effects from what I saw. It is much easier to control your throughts and ideas when your spaces are at least somewhat clean and orderly. The problem is that N-dom people have messy minds and if you live in a messy place all what you will have is mess and you will feel completely lost in your life.


7. Once I had a conversation with ENFP e3 teacher.

ENFP: How could you wrote something like that in your essay ?
INTJ: I wrote it because it is the truth.
ENFP: I know it is the truth, but you can't say it just like that !? The readers may feel uncomforatble.
INTJ: :rolls eyes:

Making people uncomfortabe is often the main method in preventing even larger problems.


8. Once NFP finally decideds to take control they often stick to the models and rules without exception since they are trying to convince themselves that they are good and honourable people now. What usually does not end well becuase they apply models on problems instead that they check how to best adapt model to fit into real situation. Since they approach order as it is value, instead as the means.



Therefore a typical NFP life is often either complete win or a complete miss.

I will stop here because I do not want to come as evil. I know that intuition and possibilities are cool things but over the years I have learned that they do not mean a lot if you do not check them against reality and structure your life in a way that you can be fully/trully productive.

 

[Blackout]

I guess. I just think the whole thing is a little blown out of proportion, sometimes. I know I can be a little in the sky at times, but I don't think to that extreme of an amount. It also at times can be somewhat subjective.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I guess. I just think the whole thing is a little blown out of proportion, sometimes. I know I can be a little in the sky at times, but I don't think to that extreme of an amount. It also at times can be somewhat subjective.

I belive that I did not say that this is 100% truth and that these are the only cards that are on the table. My point was that these are the elements that often lead NFP to shoot itself in their foot.
The question of Sultan was focued on negative side and therefore answer was the same. I have seen NFP auto-destruction plenty of times and that is why I am actaully in this tread.

 

[Blackout]

I belive that I did not say that this is 100% truth and that these are the only cards that are on the table. My point was that these are the elements that often lead NFP to shoot itself in their foot.
The question of Sultan was focued on negative side and therefore answer was the same. I have seen NFP auto-destruction plenty of times and that is why I am actaully in this tread.

Yeah, I know this is supposed to be about INFP shortcomings, but every type has their own.

It almost seems like ours are often made into a bigger deal then they always are. No function is perfect, and whilst that has never been said, there is a sense that in some circle there are strong preferences.

I also do not really think that Fi-Ne-Si are not capable of taking in accurate information; I kind of believe that is a myth perpetuated by people who (aware or not) have certain agenda's, or bias and dislikes. INFP is not another name of schizoaffective, lol.

For Te, I find that many of them can be at times a little dogmatic in their thinking, or unable to see other perspectives. No matter how much someone wants to think that they are always correct and incapable of making errors, I do not think it is really possible.
That being said, it wasn't really my objective to stand on a soap-box and prove anything. (though I guess Ne isn't always the clearest, or most step-by step process of understanding information) I don't think Fi is simply thinking or believing in whatever one wants based on their feelings.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah, I know this is supposed to be about INFP shortcomings, but every type has their own.

It almost seems like ours are often made into a bigger deal then they always are. No function is perfect, and whilst that has never been said, there is a sense that in some circle there are strong preferences.

I also do not really think that Fi-Ne-Si are not capable of taking in accurate information; I kind of believe that is a myth perpetuated by people who (aware or not) have certain agenda's, or bias and dislikes. INFP is not another name of schizoaffective, lol.

For Te, I find that many of them can be at times a little dogmatic in their thinking, or unable to see other perspectives. No matter how much someone wants to think that they are always correct and incapable of making errors, I do not think it is really possible.
That being said, it wasn't really my objective to stand on a soap-box and prove anything. (though I guess Ne isn't always the clearest, or most step-by step process of understanding information) I don't think Fi is simply thinking or believing in whatever one wants based on their feelings.

Every type has its flaws and everbody focuses on the flaws of their type. Do you know how often in real life I get: I am not sure you are actually a human being, do you even feel anthing, just leave me alone OK, can you please solve me this, you may be smart but I don't like you, etc. This can actually be very alienating process to tell you the truth. This forum is little INTJ free zone but general reality mostly isn't really.


What I wanted to say with "Ne-Fi-Si thing" is that in my opinion this combination has a problem with objectivity since neither of these fuctions is focued directly on reality. What means there si often plenty of association and values going on in the mix. However since English is not my first language I have made a mistake and I have said "and Ne-Fi-Si is pretty good at doing that" but instead of "is" i should have used "can be" since that was my real though that got lost in translation. The point is that my statement is not absolute.



As for Te dogmatism: I would not really agree, typical Te strong person solves most of their thoughts and dilemmas in themselves (Si/Ni + Fi) . What means that once they open their mouth they have very clear vision of what they want to do and then they challange the other person. Another aspect of Te strong person is that they have from very early age learned that it is them who must make things work and therefore it is their social duty to challange everthing you bring at the table. Since mistakes are often very expenssive and TJ in his/her head has obligation to prevent others from making mistakes. I understand that this roll comes as evil to others but reality will not spare us as species and therefore objective and even forceful measures should be taken. (at least from time to time)

 

[anastasiaromanova]

Blackout, about how long did it take you to write your OP?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Therefore a typical NFP life is often either complete win or a complete miss.

That statement apparently contradicts the mode of thinking you advocate in item 3 on your list. The truth is, INFPs often land somewhere in the middle of potential outcomes too.

I don't think Fi is simply thinking or believing in whatever one wants based on their feelings.

No it's not. It's a cold, rational function that sees long-term outcomes of particular short-term Je beliefs and actions, especially in the realm of people.

 

[Poki]

Every type has its flaws and everbody focuses on the flaws of their type. Do you know how often in real life I get: I am not sure you are actually a human being, do you even feel anthing, just leave me alone OK, can you please solve me this, you may be smart but I don't like you, etc. This can actually be very alienating process to tell you the truth. This forum is little INTJ free zone but general reality mostly isn't really.


What I wanted to say with "Ne-Fi-Si thing" is that in my opinion this combination has a problem with objectivity since neither of these fuctions is focued directly on reality. What means there si often plenty of association and values going on in the mix. However since English is not my first language I have made a mistake and I have said "and Ne-Fi-Si is pretty good at doing that" but instead of "is" i should have used "can be" since that was my real though that got lost in translation. The point is that my statement is not absolute.



As for Te dogmatism: I would not really agree, typical Te strong person solves most of their thoughts and dilemmas in themselves (Si/Ni + Fi) . What means that once they open their mouth they have very clear vision of what they want to do and then they challange the other person. Another aspect of Te strong person is that they have from very early age learned that it is them who must make things work and therefore it is their social duty to challange everthing you bring at the table. Since mistakes are often very expenssive and TJ in his/her head has obligation to prevent others from making mistakes. I understand that this roll comes as evil to others but reality will not spare us as species and therefore objective and even forceful measures should be taken. (at least from time to time)

The very thing you "must" do causes you to fail because of the way you do it. If Te could learn to handle things properly it could better accomplish it's task. Learning is key, not force. That's just a half as way that causes may different results, no consistency across people.

 

[Poki]

That statement apparently contradicts the mode of thinking you advocate in item 3 on your list. The truth is, INFPs often land somewhere in the middle of potential outcomes too.



No it's not. It's a cold, rational function that sees long-term outcomes of particular short-term Je beliefs and actions, especially in the realm of people.

Starting to wonder of Fi sees Fe short term better and Ti sees Te short term better.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Starting to wonder of Fi sees Fe short term better and Ti sees Te short term better.

I think Ji sees each but has more 'tolerance' or 'empathy' let's say to the inferior function we possess. It's a bias to try to keep in mind.

 

[Poki]

I think Ji sees each but has more 'tolerance' or 'empathy' let's say to the inferior function we possess. It's a bias to try to keep in mind.

Yeah, that crossed my mind as well when I was looking into Ji and Je as a whole or separating into F/T. Looking into Fi judgement of Te and my own judgement of Fe.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That statement apparently contradicts the mode of thinking you advocate in item 3 on your list. The truth is, INFPs often land somewhere in the middle of potential outcomes too.

3. They prefere extremes. When there is a scale of possible outcomes that ranges from good to bad NFPs often focus on the upper 25% of outcomes that show the most positive outcomes, also they focus on the lowest 10% that contains the worst "pain, death, tragedy etc." However in doing that they ignore the the middle part of the spectrum as well as parts that border it from upper or lower side, what often turnes into tragedy or a problem. Since those middle parts of the spectrum are the ones that often contain the most likely outcome(s). I understand that if is interesting to be attracted to something special but special happens rarely and that is exacly why it is called special/special circimstance. The correct Te way would be to focus on more likely scenarios than trying to push situation into danger zone just so that you might experience some special outcome. (which may not even be that special in eyes of the other people)

Therefore a typical NFP life is often either complete win or a complete miss.

How exactly are those two in contradiction ? I mean I have theories but I do not want to play guessing game.
Do you realize that I have used term "often" here ?



However all of this is actaully in domain where we are comming into area that is described in my threads that say that types can manifest differently around the world. Sultan asked me a question and I have answered more in the fashion that might fit him because the two of us live pretty close to each other.

Do you remember our talk in "moving to Canada" thread ?
The trick is that when you live in a messy and disorganized country that leaves a deep trail on a person. For example toward some lists I am currectly living under the sixth most disfunctional state in the world if we do not count war zones. (and those accusations are not unfounded). What means that system does not work well and therefore NFP has a good chance to "drown" in all that mess. While in the case when you live in a normal country you also live in a functioning system that will probably stabilze NFP and most of them will probaly indeed end somewhere in the middle ground. The problem with disfunctional countries is that life in such places causes plenty of pain at emotional level. What can creates negative overload in NFP Fi because NFP takes all that pain on itself and says "we failed as people" ... and after that they implode into unhealthy worldview. While some other NFPs may leave most of their believes and become typical careerists (this can look as a success but it isn't trully a success). Currently people are running away from my counrty in mass and they are not even running so much from poverty as much they are running from emotional abuse. I am fairly sure that I have never met an NFP that was trully stabile/completely functional and I blame environment for that.

The very thing you "must" do causes you to fail because of the way you do it. If Te could learn to handle things properly it could better accomplish it's task. Learning is key, not force. That's just a half as way that causes may different results, no consistency across people.

Of course that learing comes first, but for me this is so basic that I don't even feel the need to express this. All I ever did in life was actually learning and I am quite hungry of implemantation to tell you the truth.


Both of my parents are clear Ps and when I have stoped giving too much value to their judgment my life started to heal. Plus I have reduced general impact of Ps in my life, to be completely honest.
Right now I have a streak of about 4 years without major screw up and I am pretty sure that this is mosty because I have taken control of things. Especially since that is probaly the only way for me to have a meaningful future. I am also curerntly restarting some of the processes that where stopped since my parents did not follow the work of my grandparents. My parents are not bad people it is just that they are childern that will soon go into retirement.


Another problem is that my country has long totalitarian past and I am actually older than democracy in my country (and I am fairly young person). What in other words means that plenty of people doesn't function well without some kind of authority, since they are not used to live without authority. My "strategic intelligence" thread was created exactly because I am trying to find a ways to effect people in a way that they become more rounded up individuals. However if the price of the difference between success and failure is me taking control then that is the price I am willing to pay.



You don't have to say anything to me I am aware of the fact that I have went to the dark side.

 

[Poki]

How exactly are those two in contradiction ? I mean I have theories but I do not want to play guessing game.
Do you realize that I have used term "often" here ?



However all of this is actaully in domain where we are comming into area that is described in my threads that say that types can manifest differently around the world. Sultan asked me a question and I have answered more in the fashion that might fit him because the two of us live pretty close to each other.

Do you remember our talk in "moving to Canada" thread ?
The trick is that when you live in a messy and disorganized country that leaves a deep trail on a person. For example toward some lists I am currectly living under the sixth most disfunctional state in the world if we do not count war zones. (and those accusations are not unfounded). What means that system does not work well and therefore NFP has a good chance to "drown" in all that mess. While in the case when you live in a normal country you also live in a functioning system that will probably stabilze NFP and most of them will probaly indeed end somewhere in the middle ground. The problem with disfunctional countries is that life in such places causes plenty of pain at emotional level. What can creates negative overload in NFP Fi because NFP takes all that pain on itself and says "we failed as people" ... and after that they implode into unhealthy worldview. While some other NFPs may leave most of their believes and become typical careerists (this can look as a success but it isn't trully a success). Currently people are running away from my counrty in mass and they are not even running so much from poverty as much they are running from emotional abuse. I am fairly sure that I have never met an NFP that was trully stabile/completely functional and I blame environment for that.






Of course that learing comes first, but for me this is so basic that I don't even feel the need to express this. All I ever did in life was actually learning and I am quite hungry of implemantation to tell you the truth.


Both of my parents are clear Ps and when I have stoped giving too much value to their judgment my life started to heal. Plus I have reduced general impact of Ps in my life, to be completely honest.
Right now I have a streak of about 4 years without major screw up and I am pretty sure that this is mosty because I have taken control of things. Especially since that is probaly the only way for me to have a meaningful future. I am also curerntly restarting some of the processes that where stopped since my parents did not follow the work of my grandparents. My parents are not bad people it is just that they are childern that will soon go into retirement.


Another problem is that my country has long totalitarian past and I am actually older than democracy in my country (and I am fairly young person). What in other words means that plenty of people doesn't function well without some kind of authority, since they are not used to live without authority. My "strategic intelligence" thread was created exactly because I am trying to find a ways to effect people in a way that they become more rounded up individuals. However if the price of the difference between success and failure is me taking control then that is the price I am willing to pay.



You don't have to say anything to me I am aware of the fact that I have went to the dark side.

Yes, but what I picked up from what you said is that you have decided the goal, you have charted the path, you have decided what needs to change, and then you act on it. I have seen many times where Te has done this and it's not what the P or another person cares about. Te will get on its high horse and challenge and try to change something that to the other person is irrelevant. The other person will eventually give up due to annoyance or frustration, lie, and just start being agreeable as a means of controlling you by essentially closing your eyes. By learning I mean you have to actually listen to the data, not the judgement and also listen to the goal of the person. Feel free to take what I say as I am just a P and have bad judgement. Your call to close your eyes to P types due to your own personal issues.

I don't know about your parents, but the P's I know are very much this is my opinion, not judgement. This is what I think, they own their judgement and leave it up to you to decide. The biggest times I see P being forceful is if you screwed up things due to your judgement of things. You may get bitches out or talked to in a very calm manner. I am not sure how your parents are, but I can tell you what I see in P types. The most forceful they are is to tell you who and how they are.

Just my perception..feel free to disagree.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yes, but what I picked up from what you said is that you have decided the goal, you have charted the path, you have decided what needs to change, and then you act on it. I have seen many times where Te has done this and it's not what the P or another person cares about. Te will get on its high horse and challenge and try to change something that to the other person is irrelevant. The other person will eventually give up due to annoyance or frustration, lie, and just start being agreeable as a means of controlling you by essentially closing your eyes. By learning I mean you have to actually listen to the data, not the judgement and also listen to the goal of the person. Feel free to take what I say as I am just a P and have bad judgement. Your call to close your eyes to P types due to your own personal issues.

I don't know about your parents, but the P's I know are very much this is my opinion, not judgement. This is what I think, they own their judgement and leave it up to you to decide. The biggest times I see P being forceful is if you screwed up things due to your judgement of things. You may get bitches out or talked to in a very calm manner. I am not sure how your parents are, but I can tell you what I see in P types. The most forceful they are is to tell you who and how they are.

Just my perception..feel free to disagree.

Well my saving grace is that I am not actually Te dom, I simply have fairly strong aux Te. What makes me much more flexible in ideas and since I am introveted I was constantly told to listen other people more. Therefore I can avoid most of flaws that are typical for American Te doms. Also I did not distance from some Ps striclty becuse they are Ps but because they don't stick to deals we made. If you do not want to accept deal that is ok but if you constantly brake or remake those deals that is annoying. I am determined but I am not generally loud and annoying (and that helps). Plus here there is planty of people that understand that we as a country are a mess and that someone has to make some order. (at least on micro level)



My problem is not so much in Ps as much as the fact that I didn't not spend enought time with my own kind and out of your post I can see that you understand that "people have needs". Basically almost all of my friends from education and neighbourhood are/were Ps and too much of that mindset chokes me. I actaully had to find this silly thing called MBTI on the internet to finally undertand my real needs.

 

[Gawain]

This often seems to be given as advice to us, and as I have attempted doing so, I have come to wonder if much of our quest for self is really all that necessary or is worth spending so much time on? or is it something that idea of objectivity can not wholly define, either?

I know that, when if comes to personal preferences alone, there isn't really that much of a place for it, lol.
I mean, I guess when it comes to this it's just; how much do you value your own personal preferences and feelings?

<snip>

Honestly, I don't think Te is always correct or exact either. I suppose it's just looking to, or working with already existing external parameters, is it not? I almost feel like it's a cold slap in the face, followed by "your dominate function, does not matter! get with the program!"

Which is great of course, if you don't want to be an infp anymore...

The idea with objectivity is to be able to look at something without inserting yourself into it. For instance, looking at the world and seeing that every moral outlook is equally "right" and there is no one right way. Fi users understand this better than anyone. Knowing that, choosing a moral standing becomes purely a matter of what is right for you. So for others to say we are not objective, on the surface, they are correct. But most of the people who shout about objectivity seem to have a very personal view of what "reality" is or is not.

Whether our quest for self is necessary or even worth it is entirely up to the idividual. Objectively, it doesn't matter. The planet still orbits the sun, and the rest of the universe goes on. But do you care? If you do, then the worth is entirely in how much you care. And what you choose to do with it. I doubt any great humanitarian would have accomplished the things they had without some deep soul-searching. And I doubt I will be that awesome. But I'd rather try and have a little effect on the hearts and souls of others than to be an "acheiver" who feels empty inside and can't enjoy his own accomplishments. Not that anyone who is not INFP is like that. But it is what I am like when I do not admit to myself that my priorities are INFP. Your own results may be very different than mine, since even INFPs prioritize slightly differently.

And I do think you are correct about the slapping analogy. A lot of people seem very offended by INFPs just being us. Like we somehow think we are better than them just because we are INFPs and they seem to think it's their responsibility to bring us down. But as you say, that only works if you aren't (or don't want to be) an INFP. I get it a lot from people who assume everyone else is judging them. And from Js who have trouble dealing with change and unpredictability. Adaptability and openness can be scary for some people. It sometimes helps me to remember they aren't attacking me so much as what I represent in their own worldview. But it can still hurt.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Virtual Ghost is mainly projecting his crappy infantile Fi onto NFPs.
Who is truly whining in this thread?