[MBTI General] Why do some thinkers demonize feelers?

[Valiant]

I will confess - feeler logic has a veil of mystery even for those of us who use it. I can see how it would be scary or consternating to "outsiders".

Damn right. My girlfriend is a really smart feeler, INFP, but sometimes I have to really explain how I think I feel almost robotic when I analyze my own behavior

 

[Anja]

It is daunting as an Eff to be presented with a problem to solve with a deadline assigned.

My initial reaction is panicky confusion. Where's my problem-solving chart? What method do I chose? What is a method?

The essential factor for me over time has become faith in myself. I have everything I need to come to a satisfactory answer. If not I am capable of researching. I have no trouble asking for help if I need it. It's a matter of trusting my process or lack of.

In time the answer appears (almost magically) and I usually muddle through as well as any human can.

 

[DigitalMethod]

I don't know why there has been so much F bashing around here lately.
But I know that a is well deserved.
I love F's.

 

[Domino]

Damn right. My girlfriend is a really smart feeler, INFP, but sometimes I have to really explain how I think I feel almost robotic when I analyze my own behavior

YLJ: /monotone voice/ My. Dear. I wish. To explain. My systems. Function. *spits out informational data cards* Observe. Line 4. Row. 99.

INFP: *blushes* You sweet talker!

 

[CzeCze]

Just to clarify Anja, I think the problem with deadlines is more a 'P' vs 'J' thing or how welld developed your Se/Si is? Or something. I feel like we're talking astrology and the signs in people's houses blah blah blah.

 

[Little Linguist]

I don't know why there has been so much F bashing around here lately.
But I know that a is well deserved.
I love F's.

Awww, we love you Ts too....We just don't always acknowledge it.

 

[Domino]

I mean, just because we spray you with mace and shout, "Pervert!! PERVEEERRT!" it's only because we care.

 

[Alpha Prime]

- What I don't like about some "feelers", especially with NF's is that they are sometimes stubborn, defying apparent logic, in order to preserve a belief, which is not based on sound logic.
- I don't dig it when feelers do not discuss things dispassionately and when they do debate, they use "feeler logic", which sucks.
- A heart doesn't belong on a sleeve. Feelings should be a source of great strength, inside your chest, combined with the intellect.

+ Some are my closest friends, because they have admirable qualities.

 

[Domino]

Feeler logic doesn't "suck". You just don't use it.

 

[Haphazard]

I mean, just because we spray you with mace and shout, "Pervert!! PERVEEERRT!" it's only because we care.

I still haven't forgiven you for that incident, PP.

 

[Anja]

I do understand about the Pee part, CzeCze. Thanks for asking. For me it is that very Eff decision-making part that creates difficulty in meeting deadlines. Perhaps I didn't get that across.

If you can see a way to make this more clear for me - how the two may/may not be related, I'll read it. Seems they are to me.

And, Alpha Prime? Your use of the word "should" makes me shudder. Shudderin' over "shoulds." I always want to ask "By whose Almighty Authority?" when someone "shoulds" on me.

Then I remind myself I'm probably talking to someone fairly young who knows they've already got it all figured out. (I used to know a lot.) And I remind myself to hang around for the surprises they have in store for them in life so they've got someone to dust them off and hold a hand when new possibilities dawn.

Go for it. I'll stand by. And I do hope that you have many new possiblities dawn in your life. It's pretty cool to stay open and there's always something new to learn.

 

[Anja]

And thanks for the kiss, digital. Sendin' one back all the way to GA.

 

[Alpha Prime]

Feeler logic doesn't "suck". You just don't use it.

You don't use it because it sucks . Example: An INFJ colleague.

INFJ: Why don't you work overtime to show the bosses what an ace you are?!
ME: I don't give a fuck about what they think of me! I already had strong indications that I will get the job, after my trial period: because of my merits and how I do my job. I don't need to suck up to anyone.
INFJ: *Shocked* Then in his mind he thought something like this:

(1.) He doesn't give a fuck about his bosses and (2.) he is always alone (coincidentally he only sees me then), therefore:

INFJ: *Summons all the courage he seems to have, says my name, pauses for a while.. and then asks* Why do you hate, all humans?

He erroneously took (only) two parameters and extrapolated them into something as bizarre as erroneous.

And, Alpha Prime? Your use of the word "should" makes me shudder. Shudderin' over "shoulds." I always want to ask "By whose Almighty Authority?" when someone "shoulds" on me.

If you use the word "can" instead, then a whole lot of negative possibilities open up, where being dispassionate proves a better option. So, again: Feelings should be used in a useful way.

 

[Anja]

Let me offer you another way to think about it, Alpha.

"Should" implies that there is one, and only one, way to do something. It implies that there is only one global authority on things and that anyone who doesn't subscribe to that belief is out of the loop. Use of it tends to set one's self up as superior to all others. It can be a word of alienation.

It always reminds me of sitting in church and being told what I am supposed to believe - or else. "Everyone should be a Christian." Yup?

It also limits the user's openess to a variety of learning experiences and can close one off from possibly something which would work better for them.

Basically "shoulds" are how how we end up in war. How we end up in divorce. How we end up angry with others. How we end up unhappy. Someone isn't doing things the way they "should" and we know better so we hasten to force our will upon others. The results aren't usually too pleasant.

Think about how you feel when someone else tells you what you "should" do. Most people don't like it. For that matter, think about how you feel when you tell yourself you should be doing something you don't want to do.

So. Being relatively aware that there is that necessary evil called "reality" I know that if I don't do certain things it won't go well for me. But I have a choice. No one needs to tell me what I should or shouldn't be feeling or thinking. As all personality types, I prefer to figure out what works best for me.

Now. Certain immutable forces dictate shoulds. If I jump out of an airplane, I should pull the ripcord. Make the suggestion, explain to me why and I'll consider it.

See what I'm saying? It allows the respect that maybe people can take a suggestion or figure it out for themselves. A choice! Yippee. Everyone loves them.

Just a better way to deliver one's ideas to others because it honors their autonomous existence.

I think that's what we're talking about here. How to better "hear" each other in harmony, if not agreement.

 

[Domino]

I still haven't forgiven you for that incident, PP.

Clearly someone here has grudge issues! Didn't I pay your bail?!

 

[sketcheasy]

i'm sure if we were more like thinkers we would demonize them too.

but we're not cause we like people.

 

[Shadowrose]

Let me offer you another way to think about it, Alpha.

"Should" implies that there is one, and only one, way to do something. It implies that there is only one global authority on things and that anyone who doesn't subscribe to that belief is out of the loop. Use of it tends to set one's self up as superior to all others. It can be a word of alienation.

It always reminds me of sitting in church and being told what I am supposed to believe - or else. "Everyone should be a Christian." Yup?

It also limits the user's openess to a variety of learning experiences and can close one off from possibly something which would work better for them.

Basically "shoulds" are how how we end up in war. How we end up in divorce. How we end up angry with others. How we end up unhappy. Someone isn't doing things the way they "should" and we know better so we hasten to force our will upon others. The results aren't usually too pleasant.

Think about how you feel when someone else tells you what you "should" do. Most people don't like it. For that matter, think about how you feel when you tell yourself you should be doing something you don't want to do.

So. Being relatively aware that there is that necessary evil called "reality" I know that if I don't do certain things it won't go well for me. But I have a choice. No one needs to tell me what I should or shouldn't be feeling or thinking. As all personality types, I prefer to figure out what works best for me.

Now. Certain immutable forces dictate shoulds. If I jump out of an airplane, I should pull the ripcord. Make the suggestion, explain to me why and I'll consider it.

See what I'm saying? It allows the respect that maybe people can take a suggestion or figure it out for themselves. A choice! Yippee. Everyone loves them.

Just a better way to deliver one's ideas to others because it honors their autonomous existence.

I think that's what we're talking about here. How to better "hear" each other in harmony, if not agreement.

Bravo. ^_^ This is a perfect example of the differences between "F" and "T", 'should' is a value-laden term, according to the dictionary, it means "obliged to". The reason why so many Thinkers demonize Feelers as they do seems to derive from this concept. Where a Feeler is under the impression that 'should' implies one particular way of dong something, most Thinkers that I know, myself included, tend to bandy about the word 'should' in the sense of 'this course of action makes more sense'. For instance, "you should stop seeing this person" can mean wildly different things to each. To a Feeler, I suspect it would come across as "You need to stop seeing this person!" whereas to a Thinker, I think it'd be more along the lines of "It would be beneficial to stop seeing this person".

I think this single word causes a huge amount of miscommunication. 'Should' implies a value judgment, even when there isn't one being made.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[heart]

most Thinkers that I know, myself included, tend to bandy about the word 'should' in the sense of 'this course of action makes more sense'.

I am not a thinker, but I've used should often in this context and then been surprised to be jumped on for using it because someone took it as meaning an absolute value judgment.

 

[Shadowrose]

I am not a thinker, but I've used should often in this context and then been surprised to be jumped on for using it because someone took it as meaning an absolute value judgment.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that it Feelers only used it one way, and Thinkers the other, but I suspect it's frequent enough that it can cause a bit of a rub between the two groups.

 

[Anja]

Clearly someone here has grudge issues! Didn't I pay your bail?!

Oh. I missed the point?

I HATE THINKERS! I HATE 'EM! I HATE 'EM!

*Crouches and battens down the hatches*