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[NF] Why Immature F-ers give me the creeps?

mlittrell

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i use my Te to astounding lengths for an ENFP and im sure many other ones do too
 
T

ThatGirl

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After further studying the F types.

Feelers self claim they have mean tendencies. They are more brutal than T types if they perceive one of there standards or morals has been crossed. They are more likely to retaliate with vengeful actions in order to even emotional scores. And, still give me the creeps.
 

heart

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My observation is that T types claim to have control over their emotions but when their feelings become hurt they are less likely to listen to apology and more likely to act out long term and to hold deeper grudges. They appear to have little control over their emotions and feelings except of course to cover them in logical sounding language while still acting out the dictates of their feeling shadows. Almost like they are disassociated from their feelings even while being slave to them. Yeah, I find that more frightening to deal with than a feeler who knows and admits to their feelings. It's all a matter of perspective.

There are no angelic human beings. All types capable of meanness and vengence.
 
T

ThatGirl

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There is a difference between a grudge and retaliation.





*I am currently listening to F types talking about how fun killing sprees would be in virtual reality. Hm
 

heart

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There is a difference between a grudge and retaliation.

Grudges that cause long term communication problems and an unwilliness to listen to apologies or reason in relation to the problem that caused their hurt feelings is the biggest problem with Thinkers. I never said they weren't also capable of vengence. That's something you've decided on. I see no difference between Thinkers and Feelers as regards vengence, only in the way it may be enacted. Thinkers do find it easier to distance themselves from their feelings as far as conscious thought goes while still being driven and motivated to hold a grudge or seek venegence.
 

jenocyde

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Heart, maybe you are right to a certain degree but with many thinkers, we tend to get that way over problems that are larger than average for a feeler type. It's rare that I get that upset, but when I do, something truly shocking has to happen. At that point, I am able to walk away and there is no reason to hear excuses because my mind is made up. But I am not necessarily holding a grudge, I just don't want to be bothered.
 

simulatedworld

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My observation is that T types claim to have control over their emotions but when their feelings become hurt they are less likely to listen to apology and more likely to act out long term and to hold deeper grudges. They appear to have little control over their emotions and feelings except of course to cover them in logical sounding language while still acting out the dictates of their feeling shadows. Almost like they are disassociated from their feelings even while being slave to them. Yeah, I find that more frightening to deal with than a feeler who knows and admits to their feelings. It's all a matter of perspective.

There are no angelic human beings. All types capable of meanness and vengence.

Fair enough, but the corollary is clearly also true about Fi-iers from a Ti standpoint.

Just as Ti can't release Critical Thinking 101 as the basis for evaluation of everything, Fi is similarly in denial about the possibility that any of its moral precepts might not be objectively certain, which is especially ironic in the case of NFPs because they pride themselves on their very ability to understand and appreciate other viewpoints. What I see from the outside is Fi getting upset at some perceived moral injustice and then using Ne to imagine a million more reasons to hate the offender even more, instead of trying to think of other ways to consider his perspective that might help explain.

A perfect case in point is the NFP-riddled raging political left. They often practice intolerance in the name of squelching intolerance ("You're not a SOCIALIST?! Moron!" comes to mind), and something about that doesn't sit right with me.
 
T

ThatGirl

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Grudges that cause long term communication problems and an unwilliness to listen to apologies or reason in relation to the problem that caused their hurt feelings is the biggest problem with Thinkers. I never said they weren't also capable of vengence. That's something you've decided on. I see no difference between Thinkers and Feelers as regards vengence, only in the way it may be enacted. Thinkers do find it easier to distance themselves from their feelings as far as conscious thought goes while still being driven and motivated to hold a grudge or seek venegence.

In regards to the first, I have not witnessed this. Usually, if one is unwilling to reason, it is because there is no reasoning. The problem is irrelevant to the overall goal, thus being discarded rather than worked out. This may be a perception difference between T and F.


In regards to the latter, the entire sentence is contradictory. The bolded part will naturally lead to less frequent acts of retaliation or the perceived need for such acts.
 

simulatedworld

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^ As for the 2nd above bolded sentence that Heart wrote, Fi always thinks Ti is motivated by an undercurrent of poor command of emotion, just as Ti thinks Fi is motivated by one of poor command of impersonal logic.

Ti and Fi are the same damn thing and neither realizes it.


EDIT: By the way, Heart's insistence here that an Fi undercurrent is governing everything Ts do is similar to what I used to do to Victor all the time before I understood how Fi works. These days I'm of the opinion Victor is an INFP after all, and it was a mistake for me to continually hold him to Ti standards as if he had any interest whatsoever in operating from a Thinking frame of reference.

If I wanted to be lame about it, I could prattle on about how he's clearly in denial about his total inability to command Ti in any reasonable way, but I'd be missing the point because he isn't even trying to orient by Ti. He's just not operating within the realm of impersonal reasoning and my criticisms of him in these cases were largely results of mistaken context, given that he openly admitted holding himself to no logical standard.

And that's precisely the mistake you make, Heart, when you continue to conceptualize Ts as emotionally stunted children who really want to be open and use emotion as their primary language, but just don't know how and need a little extra help! You're holding us to standards in Fi usage that we see as neither realistic nor desirable, and that doesn't make us lesser people.

In actuality, no, we aren't children in need of your Fi therapy; we're just speaking a different language which is inherently neither superior nor inferior to yours--and rest assured, we care just as much about learning to use feeling-based reasoning as you do about learning to use impersonal reasoning...no more, and no less.
 

heart

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Fair enough, but the corollary is clearly also true about Fi-iers from a Ti standpoint.

Just as Ti can't release Critical Thinking 101 as the basis for evaluation of everything, Fi is similarly in denial about the possibility that any of its moral precepts might not be objectively certain, which is especially ironic in the case of NFPs because they pride themselves on their very ability to understand and appreciate other viewpoints. What I see from the outside is Fi getting upset at some perceived moral injustice and then using Ne to imagine a million more reasons to hate the offender even more, instead of trying to think of other ways to consider his perspective that might help explain.

A perfect case in point is the NFP-riddled raging political left. They often practice intolerance in the name of squelching intolerance ("You're not a SOCIALIST?! Moron!" comes to mind), and something about that doesn't sit right with me.

In the part you quoted, I already said there are no angelic human beings. I never claimed Fi or Feelers didn't have their faults. I was merely pointing out that I've had just as much to-do over bruised feelings from thinkers (especially female thinkers) in my life and they are often harder for me to deal with and they seem almost disassociated from their feelings, as if their own feelings are big mystery to them that haunts them but cannot be seen. That's the best way I know to put it into words.

EDIT: By the way, Heart's insistence here that an Fi undercurrent is governing everything Ts do is similar to what I used to do to Victor all the time before I understood how Fi works.

I never said that Fi governs "EVERYTHING" that thinkers do. You're seeing things.

My exact words were that when a thinker (especially a female one) has their feelings hurt, they seem to be almost disassociated from them yet haunted by them. Now that's not saying that thinkers are always governed by Fi or Fe, is it? Well, is it?

And that's precisely the mistake you make, Heart, when you continue to conceptualize Ts as emotionally stunted children who really want to be open and use emotion as their primary language, but just don't know how and need a little extra help!

Never did I say this either. I have absolutely no idea what a thinker *wants* to do with their emotional self---but I certainly don't think they want to use emotion as their "primary language". :rolleyes: I only know how it has been when I've had to deal with a thinker in a close, personal situation when their back was up. I am not looking to play nanny to any thinkers either.

You're holding us to standards in Fi usage that we see as neither realistic nor desirable, and that doesn't make us lesser people.

Where the hell are you getting this from? I believe I said that both thinkers and feelers have their faults when it comes to dealing with hurt feelings, they are just expressed differently.
 

Nonsensical

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Well, on the other side of the spectrum, I'm certain that some Fs have problems/lack understanding with Ts. I don't, but others may and do.

But that's the whole point of this forum, is it not? To help better understand others personalities. At least, that's what I see it as. Whenever I come across something I don't quite understand and related to personalities, I usually find my answer after being here and talking for a bit.

I don't think it should be seen as insulting, too. We all think differently, act differently, and have our own views. Sure we are going to disagree and have disputes and rule out personalities and people as irrational and wrong, but what that represents is lack of understanding. Spend enough time here and you'll have some of your answers. Spend some time in the real world with an open mind, and you'd be damned not to have all of your answers fulfilled.

That's my summary. Like it or hate it.
 

simulatedworld

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In the part you quoted, I already said there are no angelic human beings. I never claimed Fi or Feelers didn't have their faults. I was merely pointing out that I've had just as much to-do over bruised feelings from thinkers (especially female thinkers) in my life and they are often harder for me to deal with and they seem almost disassociated from their feelings, as if their own feelings are big mystery to them that haunts them but cannot be seen. That's the best way I know to put it into words.

Have you tried talking to them in their own language? If you hadn't noticed they tend to get upset when they're trying to conduct a conversation with you in their language (Ti) and you sidetrack the progression of the discussion with critiques of their ethics--it just comes off as condescending and insulting because it implies to us that you don't think our Thinking language is worth any consideration. If you want to identify with us, it makes us feel a lot more comfortable with you if you'll try and speak to us in terms we understand.

As I've pointed out before, often if we are experiencing our typically smaller range of emotion in the form of being slightly agitated with some perceived logical inconsistency, even if we weren't really very upset in the first place, you continued insistence on steering the conversation toward discussing our feelings/critiquing our ethics is perceived as counterproductive and, generally, very annoying--your claims become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you won't stop accusing of outrageous emotional states until we actually BECOME upset because you won't drop it.




Heart said:
My exact words were that when a thinker (especially a female one) has their feelings hurt, they seem to be almost disassociated from them yet haunted by them. Now that's not saying that thinkers are always governed by Fi or Fe, is it? Well, is it?

I don't know, but I do know that it's a mistake to imply that "haunting feelings" are somehow hijacking the driver's seat in the majority of our decision-making, and a little Ne should show you how ridiculous that appears from our perspective as Thinkers.

The fact is we simply don't attach the same emotional value to words that you do, and this is an especially bad problem online. If you want us to understand each other better, you need to drop this whole thing about "I KNOW YOU THINK YOU'RE RATIONAL BUT IT'S REALLY CUZ OF HAUNTING FEELINGS LOL" because it's just silly. Normally it doesn't make us upset, but if you keep pushing it over and over we get irritated that you refuse to engage us in our own language (typically Ti-oriented debate) and we really just don't particularly care about your critiques of our ethics or whatnot when we're in the heat of a debate. Ne/Ti is exploring ideas and Fe isn't coming out when that's happening.



Heart said:
Where the hell are you getting this from? I believe I said that both thinkers and feelers have their faults when it comes to dealing with hurt feelings, they are just expressed differently.

I've learned from experience by now that it's best not to acknowledge Fi's "deer in the headlights didn't mean a thing by it!" innocence act. People give Fe a lot of shit for emotional manipulation but Fi is pretty proficient at it too, in a subtly different way.
 

heart

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I don't know, but I do know that it's a mistake to imply that "haunting feelings" are somehow hijacking the driver's seat in the majority of our decision-making, and a little Ne should show you how ridiculous that appears from our perspective as Thinkers..

Never did I say "haunting feelings" are hijacking the majority of a thinker's decisions. You're having a totally different conversation than I am.

Unless somehow you're implying that thinkers go around with their feelings deeply hurt ALL the time. Are you?

As I've pointed out before, often if we are experiencing our typically smaller range of emotion in the form of being slightly agitated with some perceived logical inconsistency, even if we weren't really very upset in the first place, you continued insistence on steering the conversation toward discussing our feelings/critiquing our ethics is perceived as counterproductive and, generally, very annoying--your claims become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you won't stop accusing of outrageous emotional states until we actually BECOME upset because you won't drop it.

Actually I usually avoid these people until they get their tail out of a knot. I am not looking to play anyone's emotional nanny, I had enough of that forced on me in my youth.
 

heart

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I've learned from experience by now that it's best not to acknowledge Fi's "deer in the headlights didn't mean a thing by it!" innocence act. People give Fe a lot of shit for emotional manipulation but Fi is pretty proficient at it too, in a subtly different way.

I already said both Feelers and Thinkers can be difficult to deal with when their feelings are hurt but in different ways, neither is angelic. You are the one spinning into some kind of defense of Fi or that I am saying Fi in particular can't be difficult. I haven't gone into Fi verses Fe at all.

It is like you are having a totally different conversation.
 

simulatedworld

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Aren't we always?

Ti and Fi are different languages and neither thinks the other is as objectively good as itself.
 

Amargith

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SW, I think Heart is referring to those times that a person's tertiary function uses the two main functions to express its wishes. Heart, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, it happens that Fi and Ti misunderstand each other very much (we've had this discussion ;)), but that's a different topic altogether.

I think she's talking about those times that even NTs get shaken emotionally and respond by using their main functions because it is easier to work with than to express those feelings they don't trust as such.

The same goes for me for instance, when I want to get stuff done and people are in my way. I'll sulk and bitch because I feel they're morons for being in my way. Meanwhile it's my Te abusing my Fi to express my need to get things done. The same would be true for your Fe.
 

heart

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Aren't we always?

Ti and Fi are different languages and neither thinks the other is as objectively good as itself.

I don't understand where you get "everything" and "always" out of what I said. I never said that thinkers are always basing everything on some shadow feeling. I said only when they've had their feelings deeply hurt.

But you re-phrased what I said and claimed me to be saying something more extreme and different from what I said.

I somehow doubt that can be put down to a difference between Ti and Fi.
 

simulatedworld

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I'm really only speaking in general conceptualized terms here. I should think we've had enough correspondence by now that you'd recognize that I don't like making universal S-style generalizations, so take them for what they are.

My point is not that what you claim *never* happens, just that it doesn't play nearly as big a part in most interactions with Thinkers as you seem to believe it does.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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F people creep me out. I don't understand them. I see making decisions off of your feelings as selfish and irrisponsible. The worst excuse ever, "I felt like it", like that matters. If people justify their actions according to their feelings where is the line that says what you were feeling is wrong. It seems immature. How is putting your feelings on someone else productive to anything? Where is the self control? You cant argue against what someone is feeling and asking someone to take your feelings into account is like asking them to cater unobjectively to you.

I am not trying to make people mad here I am trying to understand. What makes you all tick?
I agree that it is potentially destructive to act only to achieve a desired feeling without taking consequences or ramifications into account. I'm not entirely convinced that is what the Feeling function suggests. What I understand the "Feeling" function is doing is to take into account the personal information and outcomes of a choice as well as the external, measurable information and outcome (or maybe that is what happens when F an T combine, since it is difficult to completely isolate either). For example, while it might make sense that a certain breed of dog would be the most practical and easiest to manage choice, if the children in the family have a strong, positive emotional reaction to another dog, it might be worth the emotional reward to go with that choice over the strictly practical choice. Or for another example, if a particular decision is going to cause emotional pain in self or others, it is worth weighing that pain as one of the variables in making the decision.

Egocentricity (meaning that self only is taken into account) is the foundation of what cannot be reasoned with whether it is applied to emotions or ideas. The ability to take self into account as merely one variable amongst many is the more reasoned, unbiased perspective. Why should my feelings or personal benefits be of greater importance than another human being only because I happen to have consciousness from my vantage point? For example, if I apply for the greatest job opportunity of my life, and someone more qualified has also applied, then the more qualified person should get the job regardless of how much it would benefit me intellectually or emotionally. From a non-ego invested perspective, I should root for the most qualified person and not be influenced by the fact that my experience is grounded in myself and not the other person.

The letting go of self as nothing more than equivalent amongst others is the least biased and potentially most empathetic position. This is how I understand the decision process of the "Feeler" to be invested. It is holistic.
 

onemoretime

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A perfect case in point is the NFP-riddled raging political left. They often practice intolerance in the name of squelching intolerance ("You're not a SOCIALIST?! Moron!" comes to mind), and something about that doesn't sit right with me.

In defense of my comrades, I usually do this because the opposing argument makes no sense whatsoever, or when I point out the logical inconsistencies, the name calling starts.

:hug:
 
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