• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INFJ] Other miserable INFJ's here?

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
You managed to show me a part of my foolishness. I seem to fall in the trap of thinking people see me as clearly as I see them. Maybe they don't.

Turn this thought on yourself rather than outwards on other people. The allure of Ni is to tempt you to believe you see everything about other people. Yet there is a realm of information INFJs are not wired to see, just like every functional combination has a profound blind spot. So, don't fall into the trap of thinking you see people more clearly than they see you.

But still, I'd say if they know me at all, they should at least know if I'm a good or a bad person and should be able to answer the question does their theory of my evilness suite what they know of me.

What they see is a person who preemptively bypasses interaction in the present moment in favor of listening to a long-term vision that does not take into account a number of factors that other people deem important. Let's contrast it with Ne a bit to explain. Ne is more in favor of remaining closer to this actual moment. What do you and I make together in this moment? Are we enjoying each other's company, is this beneficial for both of us today? If yes, Ne will build a thousand tomorrows on today's assessment. When Ni says, "I won't be friends with this person because 5 years from now we will part ways" you miss 5 years of caring friendship even if this ends up being true, which perhaps wouldn't be a big deal if life spans were infinite, but they're not.

If you lived to be 100, you just let 5 years of "today" go. You let go of potentially 1825 days of friendship. 5% of your lifespan.

It goes the same with "getting rid" of your dear ESFP friend. You let go of thousands of days of caring friendship because you're both human and make mistakes, because he called you a dictator? (I have bad news for you btw - to an ESFP, any J type can seem very oppressive, try putting yourself in those shoes, think of how much easy-going adapting he's probably been offering to you over the years). And now you face the prospect of thousands of tomorrows without that friendship and the years of work already done to nurture it? You're not happier. Now, I'm not saying all combinations are good matches or that people don't grow apart or past each other, they can. I would simply re-examine the pros and cons and perhaps make a working path to at least healing what was in favor of what could again be.

You're not Ne, nor should you be. But there are lessons from your extroverted cousins to consider, just as they can learn from you. You seem like a nice person and I wish you every happiness. Letting go of today's interactions though are the key to being alone today. If you don't want to be alone today, interact instead.
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
So, don't fall into the trap of thinking you see people more clearly than they see you.

Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.


Are we enjoying each other's company, is this beneficial for both of us today? If yes, Ne will build a thousand tomorrows on today's assessment. When Ni says, "I won't be friends with this person because 5 years from now we will part ways" you miss 5 years of caring friendship... ....It goes the same with "getting rid" of your dear ESFP friend. You let go of thousands of days of caring friendship because you're both human and make mistakes, because he called you a dictator?

But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.

Theoretically I agree with you, even if you get some time out of friendship that's better than none. And I have gotten and I appreciate those years I've had to know him. But this situation has reminded me of the things I've always kind of known but denied from myself: that we are very, very different. I've tried to pretender that it's not a problem - and it hasn't been that big of a problem - but no that I can't fool myself anymore...

You are probably right on that that he's given me slack too. And I know he has. But so have I. A lot. I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.

Notice I didn't call into account your personal accuracy, I am gently saying that thinking you see everyone better than they see you is a mental trap. Try not to let your framework settle on this as factual, and it will help you stay better open to seeing that each type sees a thing that every other type typically misses. There are things other people see about you that you do not see about yourself. What an interesting place to explore!

But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.

Tell me more about this trust. Can you explain how it was broken? Was the name-calling the "last straw" in your eyes? What was the path to this breakdown?

I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.

*nods* yes I know what you mean. These areas are important. Generally though, through participation here on the forum, INFJs believe their values about behaviour to be obvious and easily understood by others without them having to be expressly said. Other people should "just know". But that's the cool thing about learning MBTI, realizing that what's obvious to one is not so obvious to another. The ideal relationship is a human one, where we communicate out loud and don't have to just "know" what our partner's expectations are. Over time, one comes to realize that the only real expectations we should be concerned with are the ones that govern ourselves, how we conduct ourselves in relationship anyway.

But that's a different conversation. :)
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Notice I didn't call into account your personal accuracy, I am gently saying that thinking you see everyone better than they see you is a mental trap. Try not to let your framework settle on this as factual, and it will help you stay better open to seeing that each type sees a thing that every other type typically misses. There are things other people see about you that you do not see about yourself. What an interesting place to explore!

Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.

Tell me more about this trust. Can you explain how it was broken? Was the name-calling the "last straw" in your eyes? What was the path to this breakdown?

I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.

He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.

He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.

INFJs believe their values about behaviour to be obvious and easily understood by others without them having to be expressly said. Other people should "just know".

That is true and I'm coming to understand that. I just feel like I'm insulting others intellect by stating the obvious by I telling what I want, how I think etc.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.

Good. No doubt you do see an awful lot that others miss; Ni can be highly insightful.

I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.

*nods* thanks for sharing that, it helps me see more clearly. My 25 yo son is ESFP, so perhaps a personal story will be helpful here. He doesn't call anyone to do anything. He can tend to stay at home waiting for someone to text or call rather than make plans. He's a lot of fun present-tense and adapts easily to a plan. But his ability to shape the future by making a plan is practically zero. We've talked about this in the past, where he says, "Mom, I have nothing to do" and I say, "So, text so-and-so, what are they all doing tonight?" to which he will reply, "But if they wanted to hang out with me they'd text me!" He sees people not contacting him as "not liking him". That Ni in the inferior position, frequently looking at negative interpretations as fact rather than (likely outlandish) possibility.

Further, he says he literally cannot think past a few minutes into the future. He is so grounded in the NOW, the RIGHT NOW, the present moment that any tension at trying to shape his own destiny is very stressful. He may be a tad extreme in this regard, but I am hoping this shows you a bit of insight into how ESFPs work.

So, you are quite opposite in that regard. You are future planning 5 years forward, and your ESFP friend is barely thinking past 5 minutes from now. You see consequences or ramifications far more readily than he ever will.

He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.

That's a bit more ENFP'ish behaviour, but certainly ESFP also shapes and is shaped by the environment around them. Some (of both types) can appear to be almost morphing into the people they are surrounded by. As an INFP I do it too, to a certain extent, in certain situations. I see it as being like a chameleon of sorts and it used to be worrisome, like who I am not having this stable constant core? But it's more about Pe (extroverted perception's) ability to adapt in the moment to the world. It's not about being flaky or inconstant as a person. (I can explain more about this but am pressed for time atm; let me know though if you want to learn more about the differences between Fe/Te and Ne/Se - I can put together some links to help).

He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.

Yes, you've pointed out something not so obvious about ESFP - when they dig their heels in, they can be quite stubborn; especially if they've seemed easy-going for a long stretch, it can seem down-right confusing. You might find your Fe clashes with his Fi from time to time, and this can be a bit of a difficult place to bridge the gap between two people. Again, if you are interested in understanding this point in more detail too, I can put together a quick reference you can explore at your leisure. Let me know again if you would enjoy reading that; it will take me a couple of days to get back to since I have a lot of work to get accomplished today (which is why I am writing to you lolol!) Happy to do it though, just reply and I'll get to it soon.
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
So, you are quite opposite in that regard. You are future planning 5 years forward, and your ESFP friend is barely thinking past 5 minutes from now. You see consequences or ramifications far more readily than he ever will.

I see that. But that is quite a big difference if I try to take care of our friendship by calling him and asking how he's doing and he's not bothered to since it's not important RIGHT NOW. I think it's a problem and I don't know if I can manage it since I will always feel myself responsible of our friendship. If I don't call, then we will drift apart (because of me).


That's a bit more ENFP'ish behaviour... Yes, you've pointed out something not so obvious about ESFP .

EsFP was my interpretation, I could be wrong. But description fits him extremely well, but personally I'm not 100 % sure if he's intuitive or sensing.
I went with the description. Actually he once told me he listens to his intuition but - to be frank - I didn't trust his analysis.

But if he's really ENFP... Shouldn't INFJ's and ENFP's be practically the best match? And we are when we are just the two of us. But is that how far INFJ/ENFP -friendship will go?

If you have sources for me to read, I'm interested!
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I see that. But that is quite a big difference if I try to take care of our friendship by calling him and asking how he's doing and he's not bothered to since it's not important RIGHT NOW. I think it's a problem and I don't know if I can manage it since I will always feel myself responsible of our friendship. If I don't call, then we will drift apart (because of me).

*nods* you've identified something critical here. You are the person who needs the contact in order to feel like the friendship is being maintained. To him, it's quite likely you both being friends is an established fact. Years could pass and he would very likely still consider you a friend, whether the phone rang in those intervening years or not. For you though, there will be drift. You are the one who will feel less like friends.

So, in recognizing that it is you yourself who has defined a list of behaviours that must be met in order for friendship to remain, are you going to put it all together like a list of criteria that other people must meet to be friends with you, or will you make a list for yourself of all the ways you would like to be as a friend to others? This is very important. In general, most people have a bunch of needs they are trying to get met and they often primarily try do this through their relationships with other people. Then, since other people are human too, it's only natural there are going to be disappointments and misunderstandings. But if you know yourself, can cultivate the same care to be a friend that you require from other people to demonstrate that they are friends, you will find that people disappoint you far less than they ever have before, and you'll be happier for that. Your sense of self-worth will sky-rocket.

I'm saying you're likely already a wonderful friend, but you're using a definition of friendship that looks at what you're getting as a parameter of success, which leaves other people as failures when they don't measure up to that standard and by extension you an isolated pariah when others disappoint you. ("Look at how much I do for him! Doesn't he see it? Doesn't he appreciate me? I will show him what happens when he doesn't reciprocate what I give!")

How does it feel when I explain things this way? What reaction do you have?

If you have sources for me to read, I'm interested!

Righto, I'll get to it later this aft or tomorrow morn!
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
To him, it's quite likely you both being friends is an established fact. Years could pass and he would very likely still consider you a friend, whether the phone rang in those intervening years or not. For you though, there will be drift. You are the one who will feel less like friends.

Absolutely. It is because of me. That's who I am and if other people aren't willing or capable to change, why would I - especially since I feel I've always been the one to give up and try to turn into whatever people want me to be. Unsuccessfully, though.

Friendship as I see it is based on my values. God knows where those values come from. And there we get to your excellent question:

So, in recognizing that it is you yourself who has defined a list of behaviours that must be met in order for friendship to remain, are you going to put it all together like a list of criteria that other people must meet to be friends with you, or will you make a list for yourself of all the ways you would like to be as a friend to others?

I would say it's more of the latter. In my (admittedly naive) values people need to appreciate each other, respect each other and show interest in other peoples lives with all it's joys and miseries. It is not a game to me, it's genuine interest. That is the man I thrive to be. And I am. So it's not a list, it's who I am. But since this is giving, I feel I'm entitled to receive the same courtesy or people will drain me.

I give friendships a lot of time to evolve. I've known him for 5 or 6 years. I've let multiple mishaps slide, talked to him about them telling I don't like it if I'm treated in particular way. But no learn. He hasn't told me anything that bothers him about me. Maybe I'm a perfect friend, or maybe he just doesn't pay attention to me that way. Maybe it's just a manly feel-good friendship. But I need a deeper connection. I'm not into "nice to hang with you, man" kind of friendship.

But if you know yourself, can cultivate the same care to be a friend that you require from other people to demonstrate that they are friends, you will find that people disappoint you far less than they ever have before, and you'll be happier for that.

I didn't understand this.

I'm saying you're likely already a wonderful friend, but you're using a definition of friendship that looks at what you're getting as a parameter of success, which leaves other people as failures when they don't measure up to that standard and by extension you an isolated pariah when others disappoint you. ("Look at how much I do for him! Doesn't he see it? Doesn't he appreciate me? I will show him what happens when he doesn't reciprocate what I give!")

Well, I'm 40 so I've seen a friendship or two. I'm not bad, I'm not showing anybody anything to teach them a lesson. I'm extremely sad when things go to point I see no way out, especially since the other party can hardly see any problem at all and wonders what the hell am I raving about. Which mean that I have probably damaged the friendship by talking about our problems.

But that doesn't mean my values or ideals or hopes would be wrong. The other party of any friendship has ideals too, like this friend wants a friendship that doesn't need his attention or consume too much of the energy he has. So there's a conflict of interest. Who is to say it's me who should check his ideals? I might be demanding because how I am - but does that also mean I lose my right to complain?

I've been a pariah all my life, by nature. I'm alone. I'm just trying to find people - or even a friend - who would share even some of what's inside me, share some of the values and really appreciate and understand me. I think these are the basic components of any friendship.

How does it feel when I explain things this way? What reaction do you have?

Shitty. Stupid. Foolish. A bit pissed off?

But you are a very good at this. And this is a very good example of an discussion I would like to have with a friend I have. Deepness, analysis, questioning.

It's night time here. So I hit the sack for now.
 

Forever_Jung

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,644
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I'm not an INFJ, but I definitely feel miserable and alone sometimes, and always imagine it's some deep philosophical thing wrong with the world and myself that will make things shitty forever. And then I just make an effort to meet people and be open to them, and I'm often pleasantly surprised by the connections I make. Even just signing up for an exercise class or volunteering in some modest way perks me up. It's okay to be sad, but when you're ready for some human contact, it's out there. :)
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.




But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.

Theoretically I agree with you, even if you get some time out of friendship that's better than none. And I have gotten and I appreciate those years I've had to know him. But this situation has reminded me of the things I've always kind of known but denied from myself: that we are very, very different. I've tried to pretender that it's not a problem - and it hasn't been that big of a problem - but no that I can't fool myself anymore...

You are probably right on that that he's given me slack too. And I know he has. But so have I. A lot. I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.

Excuse me, sir, but ALL good friendships require work. The very best friendships take years to reach maturity and require lots and lots of slack given from both sides. Friendships that do not need slack are called acquaintanceships. Do you really want to be friends with somebody so simple that there is no challenge involved? For all you know, your forgiveness could have been the key to unlocking the next stage of the relationship that was right around the bend. Trust takes work, and is built over time. Maybe you just needed to work on the trust with him a little more. Maybe you just needed to be more open about your feelings and those thoughts running through your head. All I know is that cutting somebody off is 9 times out of 10 a mistake.
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Excuse me, sir, but ALL good friendships require work.

Well, I do know that. I was just making a point which wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Challenge and unconsiderating behaviour are two different things. I've forgiven him multiple times. It hasn't unlocked anything. Trust takes work, naturally, but if it feels I'm the only one doing the work, how fair is that? Or if my trust is stronger than his? As I said, it's mainly an one-sided relationship.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
It's night time here. So I hit the sack for now.

Hope you had a good sleep. :)

Absolutely. It is because of me. That's who I am and if other people aren't willing or capable to change, why would I - especially since I feel I've always been the one to give up and try to turn into whatever people want me to be. Unsuccessfully, though.

I can relate to what you are sharing, and that sense of things being one-sided can be very painful. What does ideal friendship look like to you? What would it look like if someone changed for you, how would you know it was happening? What would their behaviour be?
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
What does ideal friendship look like to you? What would it look like if someone changed for you, how would you know it was happening? What would their behaviour be?

Ideal friendship is sharing life with each other, paying attention to what the other is saying without just waiting for a opportunity to talk about myself. Being interested of the other, who he is, how he thinks or feels, is he okay or does he have problems I can discuss with him, and maybe try to help. Support when needed.

It's taking the other in consideration and not to call him only when I need something from him. And after learning to know him, weighing my words so that I know I won't hurt him. But also. being honest and facing the problems if and when those rise. Just being there that the other knows I'm always available if there's problems.

But about changing... That was probably poor wording from my part. Not in that sense that I feel it's most often me who has to adapt to other people. I can't be who I really am, in full extent of it, because they probably couldn't handle it. But I don't want anyone change for me, I don't feel myself so special that I would want people to turn into something they are not just to please me. And I can accept people as they are but what I can't accept is bad behaviour, changing or wavering loyalties and untrust.
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.



I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.

He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.

He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.



That is true and I'm coming to understand that. I just feel like I'm insulting others intellect by stating the obvious by I telling what I want, how I think etc.
We imitate others because we just want to make sure that we do not hurt others. Everybody deserves to be loved. That said, 5-6 years is plenty of time to build trust. Perhaps you just trusted him a little too more than he thought and he just did not have enough information to shake some doubt about something you said. He let the doubt build in his mind as more and more possible interpretations of your words multiplied, driving him to madness. He eventually had to say something, but I would have been far more diplomatic when bringing it up than he was. I like what [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] is telling you.
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Well, I do know that. I was just making a point which wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Challenge and unconsiderating behaviour are two different things. I've forgiven him multiple times. It hasn't unlocked anything. Trust takes work, naturally, but if it feels I'm the only one doing the work, how fair is that? Or if my trust is stronger than his? As I said, it's mainly an one-sided relationship.
Did you lay out all of your gripes on the table before leaving him? Did you tell him exactly how you felt? If you gave super-specific problems to work on and several practical ways of solving each problem, things would have gone better.
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Did you lay out all of your gripes on the table before leaving him? Did you tell him exactly how you felt? If you gave super-specific problems to work on and several practical ways of solving each problem, things would have gone better.

Yes, I did. Point by point, what had happened and how I felt about it. I didn't give homework or anything, that would be pushing it. I like people to figure out something by themselves. After that he screwed up again, doing the exact same thing he blamed me of (which I hadn't done). Basically a minor thing but not in this context. And this was after our good meeting and mutual understanding. So he learnt nothing.

Perhaps you just trusted him a little too more than he thought and he just did not have enough information to shake some doubt about something you said. He let the doubt build in his mind as more and more possible interpretations of your words multiplied, driving him to madness. He eventually had to say something, but I would have been far more diplomatic when bringing it up than he was.

That's probably a very accurate analysis. He actually said that that's how does it: just says the things that pop up in his mind. And I don't work that way, I never say anything without thinking how it sounds and how it might affect people.

Also, I think he has a problem of others leading him.
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Yes, I did. Point by point, what had happened and how I felt about it. I didn't give homework or anything, that would be pushing it. I like people to figure out something by themselves. After that he screwed up again, doing the exact same thing he blamed me of (which I hadn't done). Basically a minor thing but not in this context. And this was after our good meeting and mutual understanding. So he learnt nothing.



That's probably a very accurate analysis. He actually said that that's how does it: just says the things that pop up in his mind. And I don't work that way, I never say anything without thinking how it sounds and how it might affect people.

Also, I think he has a problem of others leading him.

I got that impression. Honestly, though, if he did not fix the points after you addressed them, you did all you could do without hovering over him like a parental figure of some kind, which would make him resent you more. That said, I am now trying to see exactly what he say that spooked him. You do not seem that scheming to me, in all honesty. Could you provide a transcript of one of your interactions?
 

Nico_D

The Lost One
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Could you provide a transcript of one of your interactions?

Sorry but no time nor interest. Besides, they are just memories. Either of us couldn't trust them.

I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being. I know by tiredness is part of the reason why my cup gets full much faster than it used to - but even in this case it took an year. Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.

And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.

That's what I'm so tired about.
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Sorry but no time nor interest. Besides, they are just memories. Either of us couldn't trust them.

I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being. I know by tiredness is part of the reason why my cup gets full much faster than it used to - but even in this case it took an year. Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.

And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.

That's what I'm so tired about.

I empathize with you.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being.

What would happen if you stopped expecting it?

If you try to "be" that which you wish to receive, you are entering into a transaction with another person. In any transaction, we come to know what one is owed or not owed. What would happen if you stopped transacting?

Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.

Trust you to do what? In what way should he trust you?

And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.

I hear you and feel your frustration. A gentle question - do you think you are an easy person to ask? Or is your expectation that an ESFP, the most "live in the moment" type there is, and you the most "plan in the future" type of person there is, is your expectation that he should be able to do anything but process in the moment, this moment, blurting out emotions, fair?

And taking it a little further, now you are ending a relationship just "like all the people" do. He hurt you and didn't trust you and now you will end it. Hey, I've seen it a hundred times, people walking away from people. Do you realize that you too are being "like all the people" and I can say the same thing about you are saying about your friend?

Now, I'm on your side, I'm on your team here to help figure it out. My intent here is not to give you the gears ... to make you feel guilty or bad or that you're in the wrong. I know that what I'm saying is going to cause you internal distress, and there's a good reason for that, in that it is in that place where you will learn the truth about yourself, about what these emotions mean and how they can help you even though they hurt right now.

My intent is positive and it's to step away from right or wrong and look at what is. Ask some questions to help you think of things outside of your own framework. They feel hard because they are. I don't have it all figured out myself but what I do know is that sometimes what bothers us about other people is not about them at all, but about ourselves. If you turn that outward gaze inward, you will find an evolution in yourself and a path to deeper satisfaction in all of your friendships. It's not about what you do. It's not about what they do.

I haven't forgotten the other info I promised, I'm having a little trouble locating the link! But I will find the stuff that was on my mind and send it along too. Sending you a hug Nico_D, for being brave to vent your pain outside to start a process of understanding inside.
 
Top