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[ENFP] I am out of here!

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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I saw myself asking my children questions, resisting the urge to blurt out an answer, letting them experiment for themselves. I could imagine taking them far away from any lights and stargazing with them, listening to what they think and feel when they see the cosmos. Are there people up there? I even thought about all the special traditions I could invent and stay true to every year. I remember my mother lighting candles around us and laying a quilt beneath us as she taught me conversion techniques and read watchtowers. I disapprove of the material now, but it was a pleasant memory. She stopped that after a while. I could take the candles and quilt and turn it into philosophy time. I could give them a well-rounded science and religious education to simultaneously teach them about the world religions ( merits and drawbacks ) and give them tools to individually seek what is true. It will be fun hinting at holes in the Bible and Quran myths, and vital to keep them from being manipulated by fundamentalists, literalists, and extremists of the world religions. I could foster a healthy view of celebration, and train them to always question and push boundaries. I could instill the importance of sustained effort. Grand ideas, but I question if I could do it in practice.
Someone who would do all this is exactly the sort of person who should have children. Children thrive in such an environment, and turn into creative, grounded, and caring adults.

Don't worry about all that now, though. There's plenty of time for it later. Focus on your job and shorter term goals. And good luck!
 

skylights

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[MENTION=18694]Magic Qwan[/MENTION]

So essentially...

You have some happy memories you'd like to recreate... Some critical thinking you'd like to foster... Some education you'd like to provide... And the ideal of becoming a parent...

You have broken free from a forced ideology despite your family remaining loyal to it, and even so you have managed to retain your mother's loyalty to you and perhaps even have encouraged her to be positively supportive of you...

You have learned a good bit about personality psychology even if you don't continue to engage in it, and you have it as a tool should a situation ever arise in which it may prove useful to you...

Like most young creatives, you have yet to break through as a professional but are continuing to practice and refine your craft and are developing a portfolio... You have the wisdom to see that artistic inspiration is flighty, as is the market...

You have the medicine as a tool to use to help you when and where you need it, with an understanding of its positives and drawbacks...

You have a job which is sufficient for the moment but may not speak to your natural talents... It is challenging and pushing your limits... Forcing you to become more skilled than you ever have been...

You have options for you future career path, so you can choose how you can best contribute to the world...

Don't give up the possibility of a beautiful future made of all the things you want just because real life contains a snag or two. None of us are made for this world. Even the STJs who seem to have the best shot find it too illogical and chaotic for their preferences. You have knowledge, and strength, and love at your fingertips. You have a beautiful personality and it would be the world's loss for you not to seek fulfillment of your best self and your most wonderful dreams. Maybe it won't go as planned, but maybe it can't go as planned. Maybe when we start dreaming we don't have enough wisdom to understand what would be best for us. And maybe we don't yet see that sometimes we have to let go of a little of our idealism to achieve real happiness, that we have to learn to bend and flex a little to meet the world where it is at. Maybe the secret is that the answers are hidden along the way. Keep your head up. All that beauty isn't worth anything if it just falls into your lap. There has to be a struggle if you want it to be a story worth hearing.
 

Avocado

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[MENTION=18694]Magic Qwan[/MENTION]

So essentially...

You have some happy memories you'd like to recreate... Some critical thinking you'd like to foster... Some education you'd like to provide... And the ideal of becoming a parent...

You have broken free from a forced ideology despite your family remaining loyal to it, and even so you have managed to retain your mother's loyalty to you and perhaps even have encouraged her to be positively supportive of you...

You have learned a good bit about personality psychology even if you don't continue to engage in it, and you have it as a tool should a situation ever arise in which it may prove useful to you...

Like most young creatives, you have yet to break through as a professional but are continuing to practice and refine your craft and are developing a portfolio... You have the wisdom to see that artistic inspiration is flighty, as is the market...

You have the medicine as a tool to use to help you when and where you need it, with an understanding of its positives and drawbacks...

You have a job which is sufficient for the moment but may not speak to your natural talents... It is challenging and pushing your limits... Forcing you to become more skilled than you ever have been...

You have options for you future career path, so you can choose how you can best contribute to the world...

Don't give up the possibility of a beautiful future made of all the things you want just because real life contains a snag or two. None of us are made for this world. Even the STJs who seem to have the best shot find it too illogical and chaotic for their preferences. You have knowledge, and strength, and love at your fingertips. You have a beautiful personality and it would be the world's loss for you not to seek fulfillment of your best self and your most wonderful dreams. Maybe it won't go as planned, but maybe it can't go as planned. Maybe when we start dreaming we don't have enough wisdom to understand what would be best for us. And maybe we don't yet see that sometimes we have to let go of a little of our idealism to achieve real happiness, that we have to learn to bend and flex a little to meet the world where it is at. Maybe the secret is that the answers are hidden along the way. Keep your head up. All that beauty isn't worth anything if it just falls into your lap. There has to be a struggle if you want it to be a story worth hearing.

Thank you, skylights. Cosmology and science communications sounds fun atm. May be moving, soon. Yes, parenthood is my highest ideal. I am afraid of doing something stupid like leaveing the baby in the car when I run an errand or missing some small, important detail that destroys everything.
 

skylights

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Thank you, skylights. Cosmology and science communications sounds fun atm. May be moving, soon. Yes, parenthood is my highest ideal. I am afraid of doing something stupid like leaveing the baby in the car when I run an errand or missing some small, important detail that destroys everything.

:hug: All parents worry about that sort of thing. At my work, I am responsible for someone's child, and you would laugh to watch me triple-check the bags for all his medical supplies before we go out. Lists help, and phone reminders. Your child will not be a detail to you and you won't leave your child in the car - trust me, you just won't. Though you might forget to pick them up from daycare or school one day, which is kind of funny. My mom's a strong J and she even did it once or twice. And I think I ended up okay ;) And you have a leg up being aware of that worry beforehand!

Science communications sounds fun, and right up your alley. :)
 

Avocado

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Well, I just lost the damn job. I failed my family, my boss, my community, and myself.
 

Starry

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Well, I just lost the damn job. I failed my family, my boss, my community, and myself.


What if...instead of failing 10,000+ people...what you really did was learn pill-pushing wasn't for you? What if that's what you really did instead?
 

skylights

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Well, I just lost the damn job. I failed my family, my boss, my community, and myself.

:( :hug:

I know you must feel terrible right now, but you did not fail your family or your boss or your community or the deep self that lives inside of you that is more than your current perspective. Maybe in the short-term you have an outcome which is temporarily displeasing to some people, including yourself. However, consider a wider perspective...

Consider... To be a successful family member, you simply need to be a loving and supportive present entity in communication with your family members. That is not at all dependent on what job you have, or even if you have a job. It simply depends on your presence and your willingness. Perhaps you have frustrated your boss in the short-term, but in the long term your boss' happiness and success has little to do with you as an individual. It is my experience with former employers that they are generally happy to see you happy, and they are generally sympathetic if they see you unhappy. We had a saying at my old job, that the workplace will continue to turn with or without us. Others' lives go on regardless of what we do or do not do. It is just a role you filled. And to be valuable in your community, again, it is simply that you need to be present and to contribute. Certainly one way you can contribute is financially and at your job, but there are many other ways to contribute. Simply staying aware of issues in your community, and being supportive of the other community members is plenty. Many people who have jobs are not particularly valuable to their communities because they do not care about contribution. You are not without value in any of those contexts.

As for your self... You are very focused on feeling like a failure. I think that you have done wonderfully to escape the philosophy of the religion that you were raised in, but I think that you are also harboring much of the heavy superego that is a facet of that mindset. Losing a job is not tantamount to being a failure. It simply means that you were not a good fit in that position - and sometimes it doesn't even mean that. Sometimes it is the combination of a number of factors that have little to do with you personally. Regardless, even if it was about you personally, it still does not have anything to do with your worth. Your greatest gift in life, and your meaning to the world, is not manifested in how well you fit to a single company's expectations for a certain position, no matter how much your superego promoted the idea that you needed to succeed at that job. It is an illusion. You are alive, you are whole, you are still as worthwhile as you were yesterday.

I hope I'm not sounding like I'm lecturing you, because I actually was fired from a job myself less then a month ago, and I know how crushing it feels. But I think that for me having been fired from that job, while certainly a blow to my sense of pride, became a long-term gain. It let me see some misunderstandings I had about that field, and it made me realize how ill-suited I was to working in that certain position. It did not lend itself to my strengths. We all deserve a job where our natural strengths can shine through and where we feel that we are being useful. There are millions of positions in this world, so varied and so unique, that there is a niche for you. And there is opportunity to create a niche for yourself even if it doesn't already perfectly exist.

Please, please, please, do not let this temporary event destroy the nascent feelings of self-worth you were beginning to embrace. You, like all of us, are just a growing being grappling with the realities of a world that is not tailored to make things easy for us. This is not a complete loss in your life. You gained a lot of knowledge at this job. You learned about the tools that you worked with, the nature of the service that you were providing, the kind of coworkers you are likely to have, the information that you had to communicate, and the day-to-day successes and frustrations of the job. You now know how well you can adapt to and whether you enjoy these parameters or not, and which ones you appreciated and would like to have again, and which ones you would prefer to boot out of your life forever. The way you feel about it can illuminate your future path. This is a temporary loss, but also it has just freed up an incredible amount of time and energy in your life while simultaneously allowing you to keep the new knowledge that can light your way. You are no longer bound by the responsibilities of this job. What can make you more happy instead? What opportunities can you see now, armed with your new understanding, that you wouldn't even be looking for if you were still pushing yourself to conform to that ill-fitting job?

You already are and always will be valuable to the world precisely because you care about being valuable to the world. That is not even something you have to work on, MQ. You're there. All you have to do now is to realize that you are worth being valuable to yourself.
 

Evee

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What if...instead of failing 10,000+ people...what you really did was learn pill-pushing wasn't for you? What if that's what you really did instead?

Positive spin!
 

Avocado

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:( :hug:

I know you must feel terrible right now, but you did not fail your family or your boss or your community or the deep self that lives inside of you that is more than your current perspective. Maybe in the short-term you have an outcome which is temporarily displeasing to some people, including yourself. However, consider a wider perspective...

Consider... To be a successful family member, you simply need to be a loving and supportive present entity in communication with your family members. That is not at all dependent on what job you have, or even if you have a job. It simply depends on your presence and your willingness. Perhaps you have frustrated your boss in the short-term, but in the long term your boss' happiness and success has little to do with you as an individual. It is my experience with former employers that they are generally happy to see you happy, and they are generally sympathetic if they see you unhappy. We had a saying at my old job, that the workplace will continue to turn with or without us. Others' lives go on regardless of what we do or do not do. It is just a role you filled. And to be valuable in your community, again, it is simply that you need to be present and to contribute. Certainly one way you can contribute is financially and at your job, but there are many other ways to contribute. Simply staying aware of issues in your community, and being supportive of the other community members is plenty. Many people who have jobs are not particularly valuable to their communities because they do not care about contribution. You are not without value in any of those contexts.

As for your self... You are very focused on feeling like a failure. I think that you have done wonderfully to escape the philosophy of the religion that you were raised in, but I think that you are also harboring much of the heavy superego that is a facet of that mindset. Losing a job is not tantamount to being a failure. It simply means that you were not a good fit in that position - and sometimes it doesn't even mean that. Sometimes it is the combination of a number of factors that have little to do with you personally. Regardless, even if it was about you personally, it still does not have anything to do with your worth. Your greatest gift in life, and your meaning to the world, is not manifested in how well you fit to a single company's expectations for a certain position, no matter how much your superego promoted the idea that you needed to succeed at that job. It is an illusion. You are alive, you are whole, you are still as worthwhile as you were yesterday.

I hope I'm not sounding like I'm lecturing you, because I actually was fired from a job myself less then a month ago, and I know how crushing it feels. But I think that for me having been fired from that job, while certainly a blow to my sense of pride, became a long-term gain. It let me see some misunderstandings I had about that field, and it made me realize how ill-suited I was to working in that certain position. It did not lend itself to my strengths. We all deserve a job where our natural strengths can shine through and where we feel that we are being useful. There are millions of positions in this world, so varied and so unique, that there is a niche for you. And there is opportunity to create a niche for yourself even if it doesn't already perfectly exist.

Please, please, please, do not let this temporary event destroy the nascent feelings of self-worth you were beginning to embrace. You, like all of us, are just a growing being grappling with the realities of a world that is not tailored to make things easy for us. This is not a complete loss in your life. You gained a lot of knowledge at this job. You learned about the tools that you worked with, the nature of the service that you were providing, the kind of coworkers you are likely to have, the information that you had to communicate, and the day-to-day successes and frustrations of the job. You now know how well you can adapt to and whether you enjoy these parameters or not, and which ones you appreciated and would like to have again, and which ones you would prefer to boot out of your life forever. The way you feel about it can illuminate your future path. This is a temporary loss, but also it has just freed up an incredible amount of time and energy in your life while simultaneously allowing you to keep the new knowledge that can light your way. You are no longer bound by the responsibilities of this job. What can make you more happy instead? What opportunities can you see now, armed with your new understanding, that you wouldn't even be looking for if you were still pushing yourself to conform to that ill-fitting job?

You already are and always will be valuable to the world precisely because you care about being valuable to the world. That is not even something you have to work on, MQ. You're there. All you have to do now is to realize that you are worth being valuable to yourself.
I could continue trying to get my books and stories published. I have been going through a creative dry spell since my last book and I have only gotten rejection letters. I could go sit in a cafe or something and get a new one running, possibly. Then again, my stories turn out lackluster if I have a specific goal in mind, have a deadline, try to force them, or am doing them for somebody else. I liked my animation class before my mother pulled me. I was a natural at it, but my mother wanted me to do something more realistic. I suck at 'realistic' jobs, though. I'm slow, forgetful and lacking common sense. There is nothing I can think of that I remote enjoy and can do well that is 'realistic' or steady paying, for that matter. I've contemplated suicide, but I can never bring myself to do it. Weak, I know. Things won't ever get better. I am majoring sociology, how long till I fail at that?
 

Avocado

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What if...instead of failing 10,000+ people...what you really did was learn pill-pushing wasn't for you? What if that's what you really did instead?

Everything requires paying attention to detail. I can't do detail to save my life! You obviously don't know me well enough to know just how bad I am at remembering details, following through on tasks, and noticing my environment I am! Don't know why I came back…nobody can help me…
 
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prplchknz

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If we all were successful with first attempt of everything we'd find a reason to be miserable. But with failure it keeps things in perspective. Everyone fails at something at some point you can't say based on one job that you are a complete failure. You got hired that's something. You are young don't be so hard on yourself
 

Totenkindly

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Sorry to have to edit things as per policy, but we're not stepping away from you.

I know it doesn't solve your problem, but you're not unique. I suck at a lot of detail stuff and staying on task and it's a wonder I have not been fired a lot. Seriously. I'm at work right now, and here I am doing mod stuff (although I don't have much to work on at the moment).

I did lose one job -- a stay at home job -- because it involved a lot of self-starter stuff, being really extroverted (i'm bad at that), and some other stuff that wasn't my fault. My family was depending on me, I had two young kids to take care of, and I let them down because I wasn't proactive enough, and I could not get things together to keep the job. It was embarrassing, I felt like a failure, and I wondered if I'd ever get it together enough to find a future for at least the people who depended on me.

I did manage to transfer my skills after a few months of unemployment into the field I am now, though, and have been there ever since.

It's possible to move on. I know what it's like to hate and be disappointed with myself and my inability to do some things no matter how hard I try, but... it's just what it is.

You've got people here who listen, at least. Don't be afraid to let people take care of you a bit, you're going through a hard time.
 

skylights

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I could continue trying to get my books and stories published. I have been going through a creative dry spell since my last book and I have only gotten rejection letters. I could go sit in a cafe or something and get a new one running, possibly. Then again, my stories turn out lackluster if I have a specific goal in mind, have a deadline, try to force them, or am doing them for somebody else. I liked my animation class before my mother pulled me. I was a natural at it, but my mother wanted me to do something more realistic. I suck at 'realistic' jobs, though. I'm slow, forgetful and lacking common sense. There is nothing I can think of that I remote enjoy and can do well that is 'realistic' or steady paying, for that matter. I've contemplated suicide, but I can never bring myself to do it. Weak, I know. Things won't ever get better. I am majoring sociology, how long till I fail at that?

You have it in your own signature... you can achieve anything you set your mind to and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed. That doesn't mean that you weren't dedicated enough to your past job... it means that even if it doesn't work out, you have to look for another path. And sometimes it means that you have to redefine success. This feeling that you have right now is why a lot of people are not successful. Because this feeling sucks and because it's hard to get away from. But it's not somewhere that no one's ever been before. You might be surprised if you reach out emotionally to your family and friends right now. I think that they are more likely to offer you a hand up then to look down on you. They have probably been there before.

I know that you are perceiving that your lack of attention to detail, and your difficulty with memory, and difficulty with following through, and lack of noticing environment are giving you trouble now, and will probably give you trouble in the future. I think you've made a realistic assessment of your weaknesses, but I also don't think it's a prison sentence. Just like Jennifer, I share the same weaknesses. I think she and I both got lucky that we found positions where our strengths were able to eclipse our flaws. Honestly, in a pharmacy tech job, there is not that much room for artistry or intellectual process, or socialization. I think the job really required strengths that you did not excel at, and had a little room to spread your wings in a way that your strengths could become useful. This will not be true in every job.

Plus, don't forget that the people who do not have difficulties with attention and forgetfulness have different flaws. So it's not like everybody else is a perfect fit for jobs and you're not. I sort of had that misconception for a long time, until I started working, and I realized how incompetent everybody else is, too! Nobody is ever perfect at filling the role. There's more flexibility and leeway than it seems at first, especially when people get to know you and get to see your strengths. I think this is particularly true in fields that require creative strengths, because, let's face it, creative types tend to be a little bit spacey. So there's a little more wiggle room for people like you and me.

I'm glad that you haven't followed through with suicide... I think it would deeply hurt those around you and isn't really giving you a fair chance. And, for what it's worth, I don't believe that there is nothing realistic that you can do that wouldn't allow you to be happy at least some of the time. There are always going to be components of a job that are distasteful. My dad likes to joke that it's not called work because it's easy, and they're not going to pay you to have a good time. Is there a career counselor at your school that you could talk to you? I think it might be really useful for you to talk about your relative strengths and weaknesses with someone who has a good idea of the scope and reality of future paths. As for animation, I actually have friends who have gone into that. It's not an unrealistic idea. If you really liked it, I would encourage you to go to that academic department and compile information about careers in that field. Your mom is an ESTJ and should respond well to concrete data. If she were to see some numbers and statistics in addition to positive feedback from your instructor, I imagine that she might be willing to reconsider.
 

Avocado

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Sorry to have to edit things as per policy, but we're not stepping away from you.

I know it doesn't solve your problem, but you're not unique. I suck at a lot of detail stuff and staying on task and it's a wonder I have not been fired a lot. Seriously. I'm at work right now, and here I am doing mod stuff (although I don't have much to work on at the moment).

I did lose one job -- a stay at home job -- because it involved a lot of self-starter stuff, being really extroverted (i'm bad at that), and some other stuff that wasn't my fault. My family was depending on me, I had two young kids to take care of, and I let them down because I wasn't proactive enough, and I could not get things together to keep the job. It was embarrassing, I felt like a failure, and I wondered if I'd ever get it together enough to find a future for at least the people who depended on me.

I did manage to transfer my skills after a few months of unemployment into the field I am now, though, and have been there ever since.

It's possible to move on. I know what it's like to hate and be disappointed with myself and my inability to do some things no matter how hard I try, but... it's just what it is.

You've got people here who listen, at least. Don't be afraid to let people take care of you a bit, you're going through a hard time.

I have nothing to give society. I am worthless. When I tru to help, I only ever make things worse. Always have, always will.
 

Totenkindly

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I have nothing to give society. I am worthless. When I tru to help, I only ever make things worse. Always have, always will.

You're 18. Right now it feels like your plans have collapsed, but you have a lot of life ahead.

Seeing your religious background, I can only imagine all the bad messaging you have received in your life -- people in family and authority shaming you when you did not live up to their expectations. I've been there and done that too. (Not JW, but pretty conservative Christian and even some Young-Earth stuff for awhile.) I was taught to view myself as deficient in many ways. Some of those messages still linger in my ears, but I receive other messaging from people that reaffirms that it's not the truth about me.

The future is never set. What's leaving you feeling like things aren't going to change?
 

Starry

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Everything requires paying attention to detail. I can't do detail to save my life! You obviously don't know me well enough to know just how bad I am at remembering details, following through on tasks, and noticing my environment I am! Don't know why I came back…nobody can help me…


You obviously don't know me well enough to know how much you remind me of me.
 

Avocado

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You obviously don't know me well enough to know how much you remind me of me.

Sorry. I just don't know what to do. I'm out of ideas. What is your career?
 

Avocado

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You have it in your own signature... you can achieve anything you set your mind to and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed. That doesn't mean that you weren't dedicated enough to your past job... it means that even if it doesn't work out, you have to look for another path. And sometimes it means that you have to redefine success. This feeling that you have right now is why a lot of people are not successful. Because this feeling sucks and because it's hard to get away from. But it's not somewhere that no one's ever been before. You might be surprised if you reach out emotionally to your family and friends right now. I think that they are more likely to offer you a hand up then to look down on you. They have probably been there before.

I know that you are perceiving that your lack of attention to detail, and your difficulty with memory, and difficulty with following through, and lack of noticing environment are giving you trouble now, and will probably give you trouble in the future. I think you've made a realistic assessment of your weaknesses, but I also don't think it's a prison sentence. Just like Jennifer, I share the same weaknesses. I think she and I both got lucky that we found positions where our strengths were able to eclipse our flaws. Honestly, in a pharmacy tech job, there is not that much room for artistry or intellectual process, or socialization. I think the job really required strengths that you did not excel at, and had a little room to spread your wings in a way that your strengths could become useful. This will not be true in every job.

Plus, don't forget that the people who do not have difficulties with attention and forgetfulness have different flaws. So it's not like everybody else is a perfect fit for jobs and you're not. I sort of had that misconception for a long time, until I started working, and I realized how incompetent everybody else is, too! Nobody is ever perfect at filling the role. There's more flexibility and leeway than it seems at first, especially when people get to know you and get to see your strengths. I think this is particularly true in fields that require creative strengths, because, let's face it, creative types tend to be a little bit spacey. So there's a little more wiggle room for people like you and me.

I'm glad that you haven't followed through with suicide... I think it would deeply hurt those around you and isn't really giving you a fair chance. And, for what it's worth, I don't believe that there is nothing realistic that you can do that wouldn't allow you to be happy at least some of the time. There are always going to be components of a job that are distasteful. My dad likes to joke that it's not called work because it's easy, and they're not going to pay you to have a good time. Is there a career counselor at your school that you could talk to you? I think it might be really useful for you to talk about your relative strengths and weaknesses with someone who has a good idea of the scope and reality of future paths. As for animation, I actually have friends who have gone into that. It's not an unrealistic idea. If you really liked it, I would encourage you to go to that academic department and compile information about careers in that field. Your mom is an ESTJ and should respond well to concrete data. If she were to see some numbers and statistics in addition to positive feedback from your instructor, I imagine that she might be willing to reconsider.

I had only really just started the class, had never watched a cartoon and had never done anything even remotely similar to animation before (except sketch art). The first time I met the guy, he gave me an introductory lesson, and I blew him away with how smooth I was as a first timer. It was like I was already at intermediate skill level and had been doing it a while. Don't think he ever believed it was my first time. My mother canceled that class and replaced it with study hall, because she thought the intructpr was goving me unrealistic ideas.
 

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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Sorry. I just don't know what to do. I'm out of ideas. What is your career?

Hey sweetie... I've been here waiting for you to return. You are not out of ideas Sprout wth? haha. Lots and lots and lots of ENFPs work (I actually like the info YUI has been putting forth...please check it out.)

What do I do? Well, let me start by telling you what I don't do... I sure the hell don't count very, very small objects...the size of pills for a living. And my family...my supervisors...my community...they all feel extremely grateful to me for this small service I've done for them.

My entire adult life I've worked in education in various capacities...and my ADD...or I should say...my lightening fast mind serves me well in this field. Likewise, I volunteer as a mentor for youth in the juvinelle justice system...all where there's little need for "attention to detail.". I like working with the big picture...that's just kinda my niche I guess.
 

Starry

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May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
[MENTION=5418]Lady_X[/MENTION] is a photographer
[MENTION=18819]five sounds[/MENTION] is a speech therapist
 
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