[INFJ] Profile of the Prophetic person = INFJ?

[SillySapienne]

Perhaps we should have a Ni vs. Ne prophetic/physic show-down? We can see whose predictions come true.

Lol, I guess we could.

A thought: I would classify myself as an Intuitive, but not necessarily a Psychic per se. And I wonder how much of my being an "Intuitive" has to do with my cognitive processes/functions.

My mother is an S but she is also an Intuitive with psychic predilections.

I feel uncomfortable discussing this kind of stuff, because my Te beats the shit out of me for even indulging such thoughts.

Hmm...

 

[murkrow]

Prophecy is the absolute expression of reason.

Psychic... that's an F thing.

 

[SillySapienne]

Prophecy is the absolute expression of reason.

Psychic... that's an F thing.

Hmm, I think you definitely speak the truth here, interesting!

 

[Sniffles]

I think any NJ is going to relate to this.

The Ni function is prophetic.

NTJs see what's going to happen and know why, NFJs know what's going to happen and don't care why.

There's just one little problem with the notion of INTJs being prophetic, the main task of the prophet is not foretelling the future per se, but rather proclaiming the Pathos of God as Abraham J. Heschel's outlined in his classic study The Prophets.

Here's a summary of the concept:

"The prophets did not have a new idea of God, but rather understood themselves and the people of Israel in that God-situation which Heschel calls God's pathos. In pathos, the all-powerful God goes outside of himself and enters into a relationship with a people of his choosing. He places his complete interest in his covenant with his people. Hence he is affected by the experiences, actions, and suffering of Israel.

His pathos has nothing to do with the whims of the mythical gods. It is his free relationship to creation, to people, and to history. God takes man seriously to the point that he suffers from the actions of man and can be injured through them. The prophets did not identify God's pathos with his essence, but rather saw in pathos the form of his relationship to the world, of his involvement and concern.

Prophecy is therefore not the foretelling of the future, as determined by fate or by God's plan of salvation. It is rather an insight into the present pathos of God, in suffering at Israel's disobedience, and in passion for justice and honor in the world. When Spinoza maintained that God neither loves nor scorns, he completely failed to recognize the pathos of God. God's wrath is nothing less than his wounded love and a pain which cuts to the heart. His wrath is therefore an expression of enduring interest in man. Only indifference would be a withdrawal of God from pathos for man....

....Through sympathy, man corresponds to the pathos of God. He does not come into an ahistorical unio mystica, but rather into historical unio sympathetica with God. He is angry with God's wrath. He loves with God's love. He suffers with God's suffering. He hopes with God's hope. In covenant with the God of pathos, man steps outside of himself, takes part in the life of others, and can rejoice and suffer with them. He is interested and concerned.

This sympathy is freedom, too. It is not a world-transcending freedom of the mind, but a life-awakening freedom of the heart, that is, of the whole man. It is not the freedom of rulers over nature and body, but the freedom of brothers in their solidarity."

Theology Today - Vol 31, No. 1 - April 1974 - ARTICLE - The Crucified God

So the Prophet's task is more than just foretelling the future, which distinguishes the prophet from the oracle. The oracle merely foretells the future, the Prophet does so for a greater purpose - namely out of concern for his fellow man.

Hence why the Prophets were staunch social critics, condemning the injustices within society. This great concern for addressing social injustices is one major feature that seperates prophets from other spiritual figures like yogis, mystics, oracles, etc.

GK Chesterton(probable INFJ) himself sumed it up by stating that the two great commandmants are Love God and Love Thy Neighbor. The two are closely related, and cannot be fully seperated.

This just screams Fe all over it I often say, which is why it'd be difficult for an INTJ to be involved in this.

 

[murkrow]

ENTJ, not INTJ.

 

[gokartride]

Well I don't know what MBTI type it is, but I sure related to those excerpts....it sounds like my own life. I have a good sense of play, though, I will say that, but I had to pursue that intentionally. I'm not sure I'd call myself a prophet, but whatever....I just do what I think seems right. To be honest, though I have a secret....and here it is: I somehow got plugged into the life experience of amazing persons who lived long ago, and managed to extract some wonderful, time-tested lessons from their lives. Talk about sticking your finger in an electical outlet!!!!! So now I live in the midst of, and face life via, some very real wisdom and a very broad human perspective on things, not just one based in the murky present. It may be "prophetic" compared to pop culture, but to me it is just living a rooted, common-sense existence. Thing is...it's all just laying out there for people to see, but folks just walk past thinking it is all irrelevant. Sad. So many cultures actually venerate a connection to ancestral wisdom. Maybe the world has changed so much in the past 100 years that we think we have nothing in common with those who came before us...but nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[Frank]

Hey, thanks. This is a great finding.

*bookmarks*

I'd say that if there is a type for prophets it must be INFJ. Intuition is the absolute necessity and feeling makes it stronger, since INTJ would rationalize intuition, thus canceling the "prophesy", or changing it into science.

I think it is the ability to think rationally and feel that can really create the prophet. In my opinion any true intuitive type should try and develop both.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

This just screams Fe all over it I often say, which is why it'd be difficult for an INTJ to be involved in this.

I dunno, I would think one of the defining characteristics of a prophetic person is their relative independence of the moral/spiritual climate in which they live. So many times prophets have been the odd ones out because they totally reject the values of the (backslidden) people around them in favour of what they know to be right. Even when everyone else is telling them they're wrong, they stick by their beliefs. That screams Fi to me, not Fe. Which would allow INTJs to get in on it.

If prophecy were a natural phenomenon involving foretelling of the future I'd definitely agree that those with strong Ni would be the best candidates.

 

[Sniffles]

I dunno, I would think one of the defining characteristics of a prophetic person is their relative independence of the moral/spiritual climate in which they live. So many times prophets have been the odd ones out because they totally reject the values of the (backslidden) people around them in favour of what they know to be right. Even when everyone else is telling them they're wrong, they stick by their beliefs.

I fail to see how that doesn't apply to an INFJ.

That screams Fi to me, not Fe. Which would allow INTJs to get in on it.

No actually it doesn't. Because the major task of the prophet's vocation is bring the truth to the people, and get them to change their ways for the better. A major concern for other people is a key element here. Despite their isolation from other people, they're still staunch humanists and not misanthropes. Thats the key distinction.

The whole notion of Pathos seem incompatible with the INTJ nature.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

No actually it doesn't. Because the major task of the prophet's vocation is bring the truth to the people, and get them to change their ways for the better. A major concern for other people is a key element here. Despite their isolation from other people, they're still staunch humanists and not misanthropes. Thats the key distinction.

The major task of the prophet is to deliver a message. A major concern for God (the giver of the message) is the key element there. And who said anything about misanthropes? Is it misanthropic to be relatively independent of the values of those around you? Fe is far more likely to be influenced by the values of those around them. Fi is far more likely to hold radically and intractably different values from those around them. Sound familiar? Like, almost all of the major prophets?

The emotions of the prophet towards the people are (according to the article you quoted) indirect in that they are the response of the prophet to God, not the response of the prophet to people. If it were the latter then that would suggest to me that Fe is the more likely function at work. It's not.

And Fi is not incapable of being concerned for other people. Check out the job recommendations for INFPs (Fi dominant). Missionaries, charity-workers and ministers are prominent.

whole notion of Pathos seem incompatible with the INTJ nature.

Fi is the king of Pathos. INTJs are secretly oozing with it. They just don't show it much. Very prone to melancholy as a type, from what I've seen.

 

[Sniffles]

The major task of the prophet is to deliver a message. A major concern for God (the giver of the message) is the key element there.

A major concern for God plus a major concern for other people.

And who said anything about misanthropes? Is it misanthropic to be relatively independent of the values of those around you?

Yes actually it can be, if you choose to use that as an excuse to claim superiority over the stupid "herd"(to use Nietzsche's term). To use Berdyaev's example: let's compare Nietzsche(INTJ??) with Dostoevsky(INFJ). Both examined the spiritual crisis man was facing, but took different approaches to the issue. We can do the same with comparing Nietzsche to Kierkegaard.

And Fi is not incapable of being concerned for other people. Check out the job recommendations for INFPs (Fi dominant). Missionaries, charity-workers and ministers are prominent.

Im well aware of that concerning INFPs. I was still talking about INTJs.

And let's also bear in mind that missionaries, charity-workers, and ministers does not make one a prophet. Just like mystics and prophets are two distinct spiritual figures. Not necessarily mutually exclusive, just not the same.

 

[Sniffles]

I can add Bluewing's observations on this issue in his INFJ profile:

"There also could hardly be a doubt that many of the most influential prophets in those religions were INJs. More of them were more likely to be INFJs than INTJs because the Extroverted Feeling aspect strongly gravitates towards presenting their vision to the common folk and making it part of societal life in a very systematic fashion."

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/4629-infj-profile.html

 

[JivinJeffJones]

A major concern for God plus a major concern for other people.

But primarily a major concern for God. Jonah didn't seem to care much for the people of Ninevah, for instance.

Yes actually it can be, if you choose to use that as an excuse to claim superiority over the "stupid" herd(to use Nietzsche's term).

That's a big "if". Who's been doing that (apart from Nietzsche)? Nobody here. My point with that was that prophets have often been God's agents in opposing the direction the majority values have been moving. Sometimes they are the sole voices advocating God's will in situations where the views of the majority are directly antagonistic towards it. Fi would have considerably less trouble with that than Fe.

Im well aware of that concerning INFPs. I was still talking about INTJs.

So you're saying INTJs are misanthropic?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I can add Bluewing's observations on this issue in his INFJ profile:

1. Bluewing's views are hardly definitive. A lot of good stuff in there, but not authoritative.
2. Don't make me wade through BW's INFJ profile to figure out if I agree with his rationale for that assertion or disagree. His posts are too long for my current concentration levels.

 

[SillySapienne]

Hypothetically, let's say, if there actually was no, and has never been, a "God", um, what would that then make these prophetically-inclined INFJs?

 

[Sniffles]

But primarily a major concern for God.

Within the context of God's pathos, the two cannot be seperated. Your attitude towards your fellow man is a reflection of your attitude towards God. Love God and Love thy neighbor. In fact that's a major message of the prophet: the lack of concern for others(especially the poor) is leading to an ultimate lack of love for God.

Jonah didn't seem to care much for the people of Ninevah, for instance.

Largely because they weren't of his tribe, and for this he was rebuked by god.

That's a big "if". Who's been doing that (apart from Nietzsche)? Nobody here.

I haven't been here long enough to comment on here, but I do notice it plenty elsewhere.

My point with that was that prophets have often been God's agents in opposing the direction the majority values have been moving. Sometimes they are the sole voices advocating God's will in situations where the views of the majority are directly antagonistic towards it.


Fi would have considerably less trouble with that than Fe.

Ok but the prophet's vocation is often seen as a burden not a blessing, and they often have significant problems dealing with their situation. One prophet even went as far as begging God to not to choose him to be so.

So you're saying INTJs are misanthropic?

I do notice that tendency among them.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

what would that then make these prophetically-inclined INFJs?

Psycho? Deluded? Power-hungry?

 

[Sniffles]

1. Bluewing's views are hardly definitive. A lot of good stuff in there, but not authoritative.

I never said they were the end authority in this discussion. I'm posting this to show that others agree with my argument here.

2. Don't make me wade through BW's INFJ profile to figure out if I agree with his rationale for that assertion or disagree. His posts are too long for my current concentration levels.

Quite frankly that's your problem not mine. I posted the relevant excerpts.

 

[Haphazard]

Jeffy, we love you, but I think I speak for most INTJs when I say we don't really want to be a part of this discussion.

And everyone knows that the people God talks to most are ISFPs.

 

[Sniffles]

Psycho? Deluded? Power-hungry?

How would they be power-hungry? One major prophetic theme is the ultimate futility of earthly power.

Martin Buber gave a good commentary on this: contrasting the views of Plato and Isaiah.