[MBTI General] INFP/INFJ Friendship's End

[Eilonwy]

You likened her behaviour in the video to your bitchiness...,thereby also making her a bitch...

I have a few minutes, so I'll answer this quickly.

Yep, that's what's implied in my attitude and word choices. Except, what I was trying to get across is that I found her attitude immature. I related it to my attitudes when I was in high school and in my 20's. Also, you made the leap from "bitchy attitude" to "she's a bitch". I didn't say that she was a bitch, and it was only implied that her attitude was bitchy.

Re-reading what I wrote, I notice I still don't stick to one point and tend to write my train of thought instead of any sort of logical answer. There is a point in that paragraph I wrote, but it's not very clear.

Here, I'll try again. You asked "Do you relate to this for instance, or did you one time at least?". My answer is: I probably did relate to it in my late teens and 20s, but not now. Her attitudes and thinking seem immature to me.

 

[yeghor]

I'm still not sure I fully grasp what you're getting at though.

Besides, while I do acknowledge the likelihood of a 3w4 and ENFJ crossover, I personally don't think there is a significant overlap between 4w3 and INFP. I would think it rare for an INFP to be one. Based on the limited information you have provided, I don't see it as a connecting factor between INFPs and ENFJs in regards to enneagram.

And I still don't see a reasonable argument against INFJs being 4s. For example, here's a list of 4 traits:

Link

I don't see anything there that overtly clashes with INFJ type.

Recognizing Fours

Type Four exemplifies the desire to be ourselves, to be known for who we are, and to know the depths of our hearts. Of all the types, Fours are the most aware of their own emotional states. They notice when they feel upset, anxious, attracted to another person, or some other, more subtle combination of feelings. They pay attention to their different changing emotions and try to determine what their feelings are telling them about themselves, others, and their world. When Fours are more in balance, their exquisite attunement to their inner states enables them to discover deep truths about human nature, to bear compassionate witness to the suffering of others, or to be profoundly honest with themselves about their own motives. When they are less balanced, they can become lost in their feelings, preoccupied with emotional reactions, memories, and fantasies, both negative and positive.

Fi

Fours are also people who care a great deal about beauty and taste. Many Fours, for instance, are involved in artistic pursuits. Even if they are not artistically creative themselves, Fours seek out art, poetry, music, and other expressions that they find beautiful, because they feel these things reveal something true about themselves and about human nature. Fours often dress in ways that accentuate their own sense of personal style but also in ways that symbolically let others know how they are feeling (dressing entirely in black or in shades of violet, for instance). Similarly, they typically decorate their homes with objects and colors that evoke a strong sense of image and mood and reflect personal feelings and associations.

Fi

Above all, Fours want to distinguish themselves from others—they want to feel that their taste, their self-expression, and their emotional depth are unique. Thus, they tend to emphasize all of the ways in which they are unlike other people—especially their own family. They deeply want to know who they are and that who they are is special in some way. Being complimented or told that they are loved is nice, of course, but what Fours really want is for others to recognize and appreciate the pattern of qualities that is unique to them—that they are not generic.

Fi...rejecting family=rejecting Fe...

Because of their powerful need to see themselves as different from others, Fours often end up feeling alone and misunderstood. They become creative "outsiders," and they are proud of it. If they are working in a regular nine-to-five job, they will find ways to put their unique stamp on their work. This can run the gamut from finding their own way of presenting reports to having a recognizable design style to decorating their office in a way that reflects their tastes and feelings. They may run their own company (as long as there's a creative component to their work and it's emotionally satisfying), or they may be in a profession that makes use of their personal touch, such as a clothing designer, or counselor, or a therapist of some kind. Fours are often professional artists, writers, or teachers. Above all, Fours want their life to be a work of art. They want to achieve something beautiful despite the loneliness, suffering, and self-doubt they have so often felt.

Fi=me me me..

In brief, Fours want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw and protect their vulnerabilities, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, and to attract a "rescuer" who will understand them. Fours do not want to restrain or lose touch with their emotions, to feel ordinary, to have their individuality unrecognized, to have their taste questioned, to be required at social settings, to follow impersonal rules and procedures, to spend time with people they perceive as lacking taste or emotional depth.

Snobbish?

Their Hidden Side

On the surface, Fours can seem to suffer from chronic self-doubt and extreme sensitivity to others' reactions to them. But part of the reason for this is that Fours often hold a secret, inner image of who they feel they could be. They have an idea of the sort of person they would like to become, the kind of person who would be fantastically talented, socially adept, and intensely desired. In short, Fours come to believe that if they were somehow different from who they are, they would be seen and loved. Unfortunately, they constantly compare themselves negatively to this idealized secret self—their 'fantasy self." This makes it very difficult for Fours to appreciate many of their genuine positive qualities because they are never as wonderful as the fantasy. Much of the growth for type Four involves letting go of this idealized secret self so that they can see and appreciate who they actually are.

Which type does the bolded part remind you? What's its mirror image?

Relationship Issues

... Their strong emotional reactions can make it difficult for them to sustain interpersonal connections. Fours tend to have the following issues in relationships:

Becoming self-absorbed and uninterested in others' feelings or problems due to feeling overwhelmed by their own feelings.

Idealizing potential partners, then feeling disappointed once they get to know them—often devaluing and rejecting them.

Placing great expectations on the partner for nurturing and support. Dependency...

Being moody and temperamental—making others "walk on eggshells." Emotional dysregulation...

Withholding attention and affection to punish the other. Passive aggressiveness...

Imagining that others have worse opinions of them than they do—being touchy and hypersensitive to slights.

The Passion: Envy

...Fours then get in the habit of comparing themselves to others, concluding that they have somehow gotten "the short end of the stick." Fours feel that they have been singled out by fate for bad treatment, bad luck, unsatisfying relationships, bad parenting, and broken dreams. It comes as something of a shock to many Fours to discover that other people have suffered as much or even more than they have. This doesn't mean that Fours haven't suffered or that their painful pasts are inconsequential. But Fours need to see how they perpetuate their own suffering by continually focusing on old wounds rather than truly processing those hurts and letting go of them in a way that would allow them to heal.

^This...is crucial...

At Their Best

Healthy Fours strive to be true to themselves. They are emotionally honest and aren't afraid to reveal themselves to others, "warts and all." They combine self-awareness and introspection with great emotional strength and endurance. They bring a heightened sensitivity to their experiences and are able to share with others the subtleties of their inner world. This invites others to do the same. They are highly intuitive and creative and add a personal, human touch to whatever they are involved with. They treat others with gentleness, tact, and discretion. They can be wonderfully expressive with an ironic, witty view of life and themselves, often finding humor in their own foibles and contradictions. They bring a sense of beauty, refinement, and emotional richness into other people's lives.

Thanks for the link...This definition much more clearly points to "Fi" types... Fi-Se and Fi-Ne not only scans the environment for ego nourishment but also for threats to the ego...but the mechanism prevents the individual from confronting and strenghtening his\her true self...

 

[yeghor]

I have a few minutes, so I'll answer this quickly.

Yep, that's what's implied in my attitude and word choices. Except, what I was trying to get across is that I found her attitude immature. I related it to my attitudes when I was in high school and in my 20's. Also, you made the leap from "bitchy attitude" to "she's a bitch". I didn't say that she was a bitch, and it was only implied that her attitude was bitchy.

Re-reading what I wrote, I notice I still don't stick to one point and tend to write my train of thought instead of any sort of logical answer. There is a point in that paragraph I wrote, but it's not very clear.

Here, I'll try again. You asked "Do you relate to this for instance, or did you one time at least?". My answer is: I probably did relate to it in my late teens and 20s, but not now. Her attitudes and thinking seem immature to me.

The thing you are not aware of is that I (and the woman in the video most likely) had to reach 27-28 years of age to be able to develop that "attitude" against other people, i.e., to allow myself to disengage from people that didn't respect or fit with my preferences... And the reflex to go with other people's preferences is "still" there...

You OTOH are saying you were already acting like that in your teens and 20s... Don't you see that there's a discrepancy here? You were self-centered and ego-dominant in your teens and 20s... I and she OTOH were already centered outside ourselves, on others... and now are trying to become more self-centered, which you liken to your "bitchy" "arrogant" teen self... We are trying to learn to be like that in our 30s don't you see that?

You and I seem to have started threading on the same path but from opposite ends...

You already had a strong Fi at the beginning and I had a strong Fe... You've balanced it with Fe in your 50s and become more caring about others whereas I am still trying to balance mine with Fi...so as to be able to become more self-centered...

 

[Eilonwy]

The thing you are not aware of is that I (and the woman in the video most likely) had to reach 27-28 years of age to be able to develop that "attitude" against other people, i.e., to allow myself to disengage from people that didn't respect or fit with my preferences... And the reflex to go with other people's preferences is "still" there...

You OTOH are saying you were already acting like that in your teens and 20s... Don't you see that there's a discrepancy here? You were self-centered and ego-dominant in your teens and 20s... I and she OTOH were already centered outside ourselves, on others... and now are trying to become more self-centered, which you liken to your "bitchy" "arrogant" teen self... We are trying to learn to be like that in our 30s don't you see that?

You and I seem to have started threading on the same path but from opposite ends...

You already had a strong Fi at the beginning and I had a strong Fe... You've balanced it with Fe in your 50s and become more caring about others whereas I am still trying to balance mine with Fi...so as to be able to become more self-centered...

So, a few words about how I do or don't relate to a video tells you everything about who I am and what I've experienced? You've made quite a BIG leap there, assuming that all I was in my teens and 20s was self-centered and ego-dominant. People are not that 2-dimensional and flat.

 

[yeghor]

So, a few words about how I do or don't relate to a video tells you everything about who I am and what I've experienced? You've made quite a BIG leap there, assuming that all I was in my teens and 20s was self-centered and ego-dominant. People are not that 2-dimensional and flat.

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] you are focusing on all the wrong things...

I am at my wits end... This is what I'll say to you.... I am an INFJ and I have NO idea what you are talking about... I cannot even relate to you...

Please do tell me, what were you like in your 20s and 30s?

How did you spend your free time?

What activities did you do?

What caused you the most distress?

Did you continously blame yourself for your failures and not being good enough?

 

[Society]

holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".

lets break this down:

when you claim: statement X
you express: that you believe statement X is true.
and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.

meaning...
when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.

on the other hand:
if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):
then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.

 

[Southern Kross]

Sorry the link didn't work on my side...

That's strange. It does for me...

INFJs have a reflex that they've learnt in their family environment that basically tells them others (parental authority) matter more than them... I have a codependent reflex for instance... It's some kind of conditioning that used to compel me to give others' preferences and thoughts about myself more weight than my own... It's a lack of self-identity...and dependence on external feedback for self-identity...

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, but regardless, I don't see any conflict with the 4's basic fear.

My basic desire is to correct things...bring order to chaos...create an harmonious system...cause disharmony triggers my reflex and causes anxiety in me...

That's because you're a 1. Just because you're a INFJ and don't identify with 4 drives, doesn't preclude other INFJs from identifying with them. Not all INFJs will feel the same way as you.

This is just circular reasoning.

These are not my key motivations...I desire "to be" the rescuer...

See above.

These are clearly IxFP types...

I would sincerely doubt that all of these are IxFPs. And there's a whole bunch of potential NFJs in there: Jeremy Irons, Kate Winslet, Joni Mitchell, Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Maria Callas, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Stevie Nicks, Paul Simon, Cat Stevens, Feist...

This is clearly describing Fi... Fi trying to maintain the feeling of high feeling in the ego...trying to fine tune...

Seriously? Are you forgetting the entire INFJ doorslam thread? There was a great deal of discussion about INFJs cultivating certain identities and emotions, while tuning out others.

All these descriptions mentione building a stable self and identity... These are related to building up the ego... The mechanism here is based on building up the ego...

And INFJs can't have identity issues?

Fi
Fi

Fi...rejecting family=rejecting Fe...

Fi=me me me..

Snobbish?

Which type does the bolded part remind you? What's its mirror image?

^This...is crucial...

Thanks for the link...This definition much more clearly points to "Fi" types... Fi-Se and Fi-Ne not only scans the environment for ego nourishment but also for threats to the ego...but the mechanism prevents the individual from confronting and strenghtening his\her true self...

Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.

You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.

 

[yeghor]

That's strange. It does for me...

Office internet blocked it appearently...

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, but regardless, I don't see any conflict with the 4's basic fear.

Enneagram 4 Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance

INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...

That's because you're a 1. Just because you're a INFJ and don't identify with 4 drives, doesn't preclude other INFJs from identifying with them. Not all INFJs will feel the same way as you.

This is just circular reasoning.

No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...

Also check this...

INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...

What [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...

See above.

The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...

I would sincerely doubt that all of these are IxFPs. And there's a whole bunch of potential NFJs in there: Jeremy Irons, Kate Winslet, Joni Mitchell, Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Maria Callas, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Stevie Nicks, Paul Simon, Cat Stevens, Feist...

I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...

Seriously? Are you forgetting the entire INFJ doorslam thread? There was a great deal of discussion about INFJs cultivating certain identities and emotions, while tuning out others.

What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?

And INFJs can't have identity issues?

Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...

Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.

I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4... I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...

You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.

Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...

The bottom line is that enneagram 4 clearly defines Fi-dom or aux in MBTI... And that makes it impossible for a Fe-dom or aux to be an enneagram 4 main type... They may have 4 in their second or third type in their tritype but not as the primary one...

 

[yeghor]

holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".

lets break this down:

when you claim: statement X
you express: that you believe statement X is true.
and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.

meaning...
when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.

on the other hand:
if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):

then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.

No it means, I was left ignorant of some hard facts of life while being brought up by my parents, and I had to learn them like a child would but in my 30s... They inadvertantly programmed me in a way that suggested it was OK to relinquish self preferences and rights for the sake of others...

Your tritype suggests to me by the way that you are Ne-Fi-Se... ENFP?

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] and others..

http://mandala.fpmt.org/archives/mandala-issues-for-2006/august/altruism-versus-co-dependency/

 

[yeghor]

3s - I know they often get bagged a bit on the internet but a healthy, well-rounded 3 is truly delightful to be around. I think being a So-first means I admire their charm, gregariousness, adaptability and confident competency. I think perhaps this type draws me the most romantically, because they're so good at things I'm terrible at.

Sorry I quoted this here but what does that suggest about enneagram type 3?

 

[á´…eparted]

INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...

Some might, some might not. Not type dependent.

No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...

actually, it's you that doesn't understand what INFJ (really, just typology in general is). Take a look around you and look how many people keep correcting you. That says something. Though, I do agree that descriptions of INFJ's do sound very lofty and and in some ways unrealistic. Co-dependency can be an issue for some INFJ's, but it's certaintly not required nor limited to them.

INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...

Nope. No evidence to support this.

What Eilonwy perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...

I haven't watched the afformentioned video (nor do I care to) and thus won't comment on that.

The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...

No. Wrong. Again. Enneagram and MBTI do not require linkage. The evidence is completely contrary to what you're saying. Stop claming this, it's completely and utterly wrong.

I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...

WOW. That's completely illogical. This is no different than claiming that people who have large sleave tatoos have anger issues. No evidence to support this, and it's extremely judgemental and unfair.

What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?

Then it is what it is.

Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...

Bold claim, no evidence other then self refrence, which can not be used as a universal point.

I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4... I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...

This is what you THINK, this is NOT what it ACTUALLY is.

Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...

You need to stop doing the former so much. You WAY over use it, way way way too much. I have yet to see you use ANY of the latter. Everything you suggest is either just a unsupported thought, or a self reference.

The bottom line is that enneagram 4 clearly defines Fi-dom or aux in MBTI... And that makes it impossible for a Fe-dom or aux to be an enneagram 4 main type... They may have 4 in their second or third type in their tritype but not as the primary one...

NO. No times 1000x. This is not true, you can't support this. The evidence (other people having these typing combinations) completely proves your claim wrong. For the love of god, how are you this stubborn? You've been told by easily a dozen people in just a week these kinds of statements are wrong, and then just completely ignore it. WHY? Why do you not listen to reason?

 

[yeghor]

...

You talk way too certain for someone who cannot ascertain his own type to begin with (are you settled on ISTJ now?)...

Try googling INFJ and copendency...

I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of it...

Propose alternative explanations and I'll take them seriously...

How would you know what INFJ is?

How do you imagine an INFJ to be and to act?

What do Ni-Fe-Ti-Se functions do for the INFJ?

How do they enable INFJ to display the traits that are attributed to INFJ?

 

[á´…eparted]

You talk way too certain for someone who cannot ascertain his own type to begin with (are you settled on ISTJ now?)...

See my signature (my type hasn't changed). Comment is out of place, and belongs here.

Try googling INFJ and copendency...

I don't care enough to TBH. What I can say though, is that co-dependency is possible for any type.

I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of it...

Well, you'd be wrong on this too.

Propose alternative explanations and I'll take them seriously...

That's fine, but it doesn't make them right.

How would you know what INFJ is?

Because I have been studying typology since I was 14, and I used to run the INFJ forums back in 2010/2011.

How do you imagine an INFJ to be and to act?

What do Ni-Fe-Ti-Se functions do for the INFJ?

How do they enable INFJ to display the traits that are attributed to INFJ?

I'm not going to write this out and explain it. It would take WAY too long, and no offence but your ability to learn this sort of stuff and actually accept it is really low, that I feel like I'd be wasting my time. Someone else can explain this stuff it if they want to, but it's not going to be me.

 

[Society]

holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".


lets break this down:


when you claim: statement X
you express: that you believe statement X is true.
and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.


meaning...
when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.


on the other hand:
if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):


then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.

No it means, I was left ignorant of some hard facts of life while being brought up by my parents, and I had to learn them like a child would but in my 30s... They inadvertantly programmed me in a way that suggested it was OK to relinquish self preferences and rights for the sake of others...

it's certainly possible, i have no doubt you would have had trouble being who you are if it wasn't for your parent's upbringing and DNA...
(and like wise them for their parents and their parents and their parents and all the way down to one caveman who accidently fall on another)
but no - not only does you having someone to blame for it not contradict the actual meaning of what "it" is, it further illustrates it:
what you are demonstrating is the tendency for rejecting responsibility (in this case who you are), which is the opposite of the tendency to take it.
(especially if done in your 30s).

that is the cop-out that [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] was talking about which she can now examine in her own past. as alien as the notion that it's there might seem to you - not to mention being able to take responsibility for it on your own anytime in the future. that's the thing about maturity - unless you fail at growth - then your future self is probably going to look back on your current self as quite immature.

Your tritype suggests to me by the way that you are Ne-Fi-Se... ENFP?

oh that's not all, i am also the only male 7-4-8 combination here (as far as i noticed), or for that matter the only male 7-4-x combination...
...so not only does it suggest i am the wrong MBTI type, it suggests i am the wrong gender!

yea probably not, and likewise for others: the main reason you see common patterns between MBTI and the enneagram is that every description in the enneagram was written based on people the respective authors have interacted with, people who - surprise - also have have MBTI types, and the more frequent an MBTI-enneagram combination is, the more likely it was to inspire elements within the enneagram description (which in turn increases the likelihood of people of that MBTI-type typing as that e-type). 7s often described as Se dom, 8s as Te dom, 9s and 2s as Fe dom, 1s and 4s as Fi dom, 5s as Ti dom, 6s as Si dom. what this has a basis in is not causation or even full correlation, but frequency.

while we're at it, here's another bit of reasoning you'll likely have a difficulty following:
1. you have repeatedly made the claim that it's wrong for others to misrepresent their typology in discussions about the type you think they are mistyped as.
2. so far had to retype almost every person you had any confrontation with and even many that you didn't, essentially expressing that you think most of anyone's understanding of the functions is wrong, and as an added bonus you've even expressed thinking that Jung's understanding of the functions is wrong... does it strike you as odd that in order for your understanding of MBTI to be true, almost everyone else's - including the people who invented and developed it over the years - has to be wrong?

now, you can go to another country and tell everyone that their word for bread is the word for cancer & argue with every bakery and hospital that they are lying about their menu and sending the wrong messages in the cafeteria and that they aren't communicating correctly...
...or you can actually think and question whether the the goal of communication is to merely support your frame of reference in spite of the agree'd meaning of words, or - just maybe - to deliver understandings between people within a society by utilizing what people within that society interpret the meaning of the words to be. in which case, the one doing the miscommunication just.. might not be everyone else, but you.

 

[yeghor]

as alien as the notion that it's there might seem to you - not to mention being able to take responsibility for it on your own anytime in the future.

I don't think you'll ever be satisfied even if I catch 2 birds with one stone on one foot... Reminds me of something from my childhood...

You gotta display and apply the same level of self-awareness you so demandingly expect from others...

I've always assumed you were an ENFP if you recall by the way...

Consider it this way...

There are 10 horses that carry more or less the same load daily except for 1 that thinks that it is supposed to carry twice the weight or others will hate it... Time passes and that 1 notices that carrying twice the load that of other horses doesn't benefit it in any way but rather hurts it... So it decides that it should start carrying gradually less weight until it is more or less the same with other horses...

There's also this 1 other horse that is ever on the lookout to offload his load to other horses...because it hurts its back... and so far the other one was willing to carry it for the latter.. but not anymore... What will it do? Who will carry that load for it? Its back hurts so bad... The other horse used to carry twice the load with ease... It's certainly being a spoilsport for suddenly refusing to do it... it's rejecting its responsibility, its duty...

This^ is exactly what you fail to understand and choose to remain ignorant of [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] ... You've become reliant on accusing others of your own shortcomings... its called projection... and you've been doing that on this forum since forever...

This is clearly Ne-Fi at play... Your Ne is conjuring up excuses as to how it's always others at fault so that you can avoid feeling bad about yourself...

We've discussed this already in the doorslam thread... I don't have any more patience to do that once more...

 

[chubber]

Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.

You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.

That should be enough to say she is INFP.

 

[chubber]

I think it was the 8 wing. That thing can sure enough get a gal into trouble sometimes, but it keeps life...interesting.

I've been wondering about ninja Ti banter.

 

[Ene]

I've been wondering about ninja Ti banter.

Go on....you've got me curious

I've been known to mix it up in the hallowed halls of Ninjitsu.

Since, we're letting Ti out of its cage....

I've a theory related to long term practitioners of Martial Arts and the effect it has on cognitive development, but it only applies to ISTPs and INFJs. I don't know the implications for other types. (I would apologize for derailing the thread, but that train wrecked long ago, so now I'm just wading through the carnage, looking for treasures and pieces of junk I can recycle.)

Bruce Lee is said by some to have been an ISTP, yet there was something VERY Ni about him. Serious commitment to a lifestyle of kung fu requires the development of intuition. But it also requires the development of Se and the utilization of Ti. In its most effective form, personal feelings have to be compartmentalized and dealt with "after" the fight. Decisions made in anger, fear, guilt, etc., stem from we call the emotional or monkey mind. We train ourselves to operate out of the wisdom or rational mind.

So here's the theory:

ISTPs who practice kung fu over the long haul move closer to INFJ likeness as their skill and age advances while INFJs who,practice over the long haul move closer to ISTP likeness as their skill and age advances.

My training partner is definitely ISTP. He says we are the same, but I think that what he maybe really sees is that we are moving toward sameness. I am becoming more like him and he is becoming more like me. So, We are much alike, but he is so good with fixing things, while I am so good at creating things.

It's only a theory, but explains my oddly developed Ti and Se.


**our Grandmaster, I believe is INTJ. He says we are just alike. We do both come from Ni world and we are kindred, but we are not the same....I'm cuter.

 

[Southern Kross]

INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...

Again, this is still an identity problem and 4s are one of the identity triad.

No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...

No, you are the one trying to put INFJs in a narrow little box, irrespective of how well they actually fit into it.

You can keep throwing all these INFJ traits at me, but I can't leap to the sorts of conclusions you're making. One trait does not necessarily preclude the presence of another - simple as that. I need an argument for why they don't go together, not a longer lists of traits.

I also need you to stop bring yourself from this debate; all it seems to result in is flawed reasoning. This is basically what you've been saying:

Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
Conclusion - The INFJ type does not correlate with type 4

There are so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin. I would rather not go down that very shaky path. However, if you wish to continue debating the nature of INFJs and 4s in a more objective sense, I will gladly do so.

INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...

In your opinion...

I have received no argument or evidence from you to back up this statement. In fact, as far as I know, MBTI type is innate and not a product of environment. Enneagram, on the other hand, has a lot to do with environment.

What [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...

Sorry, I haven't watched the video.

I don't get it. Why do you think "codependence" is not congruous with 4 drives?

The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...

That is a huge leap to make and has no basis of support in the theory. You are being way too literal in your assessment of type correlations.

I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...

Now you're just taking the piss. You don't actually believe that do you?

What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?

They would simply be INFJ 4s.

Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...

Not everyone is the same. INFJs aren't robots manufactured on an assembly line. Idiosyncrasies will always exists in addition to the general MBTI attributes, resulting in a variety of different outcomes.

I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4...

That's not what I said. I was saying that there is nothing about Ni (or Fe for that matter) that inherently precludes it from existing in combination with the 4 type.

I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...

Sorry, I don't really go for the Freudian model of the psyche. I'm not saying it's wrong; I just don't personally find it useful.

Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...

That's the whole problem. Stop doing that. It's circular reasoning.