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[MBTI General] INFP/INFJ Friendship's End

chubber

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Agreed. It made me want to barf. Yet another INFJ seeing themselves as perfect & bogged down with hanger-ons they are just too kind to ignore? Ugh.... These people's inability to see themselves is frightening.

Possible functional clashes:
- Fe presuming all kinds of stuff & projecting BS (unable to interpret things outside of Fe protocol), over rates self (especially in terms of supposed "giving")
- Ni arrogance & extremely narrow viewpoint
- Inferior Se braggy arrogance
- Fi extreme privacy & inexpression which appears inactive on the outside, strong dislike of braggy arrogance
- Ne boredom in hearing others yack on about dull details of their lives
- Inferior Te raw expressions of irritations (although the description of it sounds too passive & manipulative; FiTe is direct & scathing).

Suspicious:
- IxxP wanting that much consistent & lengthy contact :huh:
- IxFP making & expressing value judgments about someone's decisions in a guilt-trippy way (reeks of Fe) :shock:
- IxxP complaining about aloofness (IxxPs are aloof) :huh:
- IxxP worried about status with someone (reeks of Fe :dry: )

Not convinced this person is INFP. Probably just an unhealthy IxFx being pegged as INFP because it's the catch-all category for such people.

I agree with your suspicion, because the INFPs that I know, love them some boundaries. It's like trying to move an ice berg with them. EVERYTHING has to go over their value system first.
 

OrangeAppled

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What if both sides were mistyped? Edit: Would that change how you approach to all this?

Of course. The conjecture on functions would be different, although if you take it as a literal description of what's going on that is not cheeky, then you've missed the point.

However, the OP is showing a pattern that pops up in those who type as INFJ. I noted that & so did PB because it happens enough to stand out as something INFJs do. It will always be side-stepped though, as INFJs will not admit wrongs or imperfections. Instead, deflection will occur (as in here, implication that INFPs accurately pointing out the OP's distorted perspective means INFPs are too sensitive....but who's the one refusing to address criticism? Hmm....).

Whereas her description of the INFP doesn't fit negative patterns for INFPs. Her comments on Fi certainly don't reflect a grasp of nor desire for "truth".
 

yeghor

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Of course. The conjecture on functions would be different, although if you take it as a literal description of what's going on that is not cheeky, then you've missed the point.

However, the OP is showing a pattern that pops up in those who type as INFJ. I noted that & so did PB because it happens enough to stand out as something INFJs do. It will always be side-stepped though, as INFJs will not admit wrongs or imperfections. Instead, deflection will occur (as in here, implication that INFPs accurately pointing out the OP's distorted perspective means INFPs are too sensitive....but who's the one refusing to address criticism? Hmm....).

Whereas her description of the INFP doesn't fit negative patterns for INFPs. Her comments on Fi certainly don't reflect a grasp of nor desire for "truth".

I think it is unhealthy Ne that has a tendency to "distort" things to protect the ego... It reminds me of a chaff or a flare that a fighter craft employs to evade an incoming missile (which can hurt the ego if it succesfully hits)... So Ne is looking for alternate explanations (chaffs) about the things happening around the self and the self itself so that the self can remain protected from negative consequences...so that the self can feel good...

It however also prevents the self from criticizing itself by conjuring alternate explanations i.e. "excuses" about things and the self... it's an avoidance mechanism...

INFPs employing this tactic in this thread implies to me that there's something in the thread that they detect as a threat to their core self... something that may hurt them...

Edit: Assuming that people aren't mistyped...
 
Last edited:

chubber

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Haha, [MENTION=20044]calb[/MENTION], yes, I R speaking the Dutch.

Sometimes.

Don't tell anyone, though.

Here, have a smokescreen: Trop drôle. Sehr wichtig. очень хорошо.

I like it when it is white, like the chalk kind.
 

OrangeAppled

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I think it is unhealthy Ne that has a tendency to "distort" things to protect the ego... It reminds me of a chaff or a flare that a fighter craft employs to evade an incoming missile (which can hurt the ego if it succesfully hits)... So Ne is looking for alternate explanations (chaffs) about the things happening around the self and the self itself so that the self can remain protected from negative consequences...so that the self can feel good...

It however also prevents the self from criticizing itself by conjuring alternate explanations i.e. "excuses" about things and the self... it's an avoidance mechanism...

INFPs employing this tactic in this thread implies to me that there's something in the thread that they detect as a threat to their core self... something that may hurt them...

Deflection..... Why not address the criticisms head-on? Why not consider negative INFJ patterns?
This you describe is exactly what INFJs do (and are doing). INFPs give & have given far more consideration to the premise & have explained it's holes. But INFJs refuse to reason. It's either "oh thanks for your perspective" brush-offs or attacking credibility of the INFP instead of the argument.

Instead, it must be about someone else's motivations, or whatever. But the OP is not a criticism of INFPs. So we're not addressing it as one. It was asked that functions be considered, implying there is a connection with type & these behaviors/mentalities. What's being suggested is that the situation is not about type, but the interpretation of it may be about type, namely, the OP's type. And we only have one side of it, which leaves only a "general INFP model" to compare it to, and it doesn't jive with that. So that leaves 3 possibilites:
- OP is correct (too much inconsistency & apparent emotional bias)
- INFP in situation is experiencing & seeing it very differently (one way to make it consistent with general INFP model)
- OP is wrong about person being INFP (removes some inconsistency, opens up potential to better grasp situation)

Refusing to consider all of this seems protection of the INFJ "core self". What hurts YOU about the criticisms towards the OP & INFJs? The truth being avoided is INFJs seeing themselves.
 

yeghor

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Deflection..... Why not address the criticisms head-on? Why not consider negative INFJ patterns?
This you describe is exactly what INFJs do (and are doing). INFPs give & have given far more consideration to the premise & have explained it's holes. But INFJs refuse to reason. It's either "oh thanks for your perspective" brush-offs or attacking credibility of the INFP instead of the argument.

Instead, it must be about someone else's motivations, or whatever. But the OP is not a criticism of INFPs. So we're not addressing it as one. It was asked that functions be considered, implying there is a connection with type & these behaviors/mentalities. What's being suggested is that the situation is not about type, but the interpretation of it may be about type, namely, the OP's type. And we only have one side of it, which leaves only a "general INFP model" to compare it to, and it doesn't jive with that. So that leaves 3 possibilites:
- OP is correct (too much inconsistency & apparent emotional bias)
- INFP in situation is experiencing & seeing it very differently (one way to make it consistent with general INFP model)
- OP is wrong about person being INFP (removes some inconsistency, opens up potential to better grasp situation)

Refusing to consider all of this seems protection of the INFJ "core self". What hurts YOU about the criticisms towards the OP & INFJs? The truth being avoided is INFJs seeing themselves.

I am mirroring you...
 

Ene

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I can't help to think that socionics got it right with IEE-ENFp and IEI-INFp. e.g. the shadow functions of INFJ (MBTI) is the ENFP (MBTI). Like you would switch between them. That is just my own theory but I keep thinking that the INFJ can go into ENFP mode and also go mothering me and be all clingy if they want to, but then return to their natural state of being an INFJ. Fe tough love and all.

About the banter, was that your 8-wing sticking it's head out? Or do you think it is just a thing that happens between INFJ (dare I say ENFP-mode) bantering with the INTJ (assuming that the INTJ can go ENTP mode too for a while)?

What do you y'all think now?

[MENTION=13502]March[/MENTION], what's with the Dutch, are you speaking the Dutch?


I think it was the 8 wing. That thing can sure enough get a gal into trouble sometimes, but it keeps life...interesting.
 

Ene

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How old were you when you decided that? Fe users also have fluctuating emotions... they can connect with their shadow Fi from time to time... Fe is just a "static, mechanical front"... You don't have any emotional fluctuations?

Why did you pick smiley people and nature pics? :)

I went through a lot of tragedy early on in my adult life.

I was in college when I decided that.

I decided that emotions are like a horse. You can let them run all over your life, trampling everything in their path or you can put a bit in their mouth, harness their energy and plow your fields to yield the crop you want. There are times to let them run free, but I decide when. I control them. They don't control me. Mostly, barring a tragedy or something like that. Even then, I surprise myself by being calm throughout most ordeals and then I get the shakes....afterwards, when everything returns to normal.

EDIT: why I picked smileys and nature....I actually picked the people who looked like they would be the most interesting to talk to on a long term basis and those who looked the least emotionally volatile. I picked nature because I'm a very outdoorsy person, like to hike, climb, swim, garden, etc.
 

Ene

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Just some thoughts - I still have a lot to learn about cognitive functions so a lot of this might be inaccurate. Part of the reason why I'm posting it is so I can hear feedback, so feel free to point something out if it strikes you as wrong.


A lot of this relates to what [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said previously.

A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.
For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly. They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening. For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
I guess my main theory is:
Because IxFPs are so sensitive to being judged, and also because 1) their own inner experience with using (inferior) Je suggests that it's very final and judgmental and 2) the flexibility of Ni in the healthy INxJ isn't always externally obvious, the judgments of the INxJ can come across as offensive, closed-minded and arrogant to those IxFPs who don't understand the INxJ's strategy of forming a single, dynamic vision (which has nuances that are difficult to articulate) instead of juggling multiple possibilities and waiting to form judgments like a Perceiver (esp. NP). This sensitivity can come across as prickliness or "boo hoo, poor me" egocentric hypersensitivity to INxJs. Similarly, INxJs can miss the depth in the IxFP's microcosmic way of thinking, understanding people, and forming values; also Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

Another general clash:
- To some Ne-users, Ni+Je can appear too inflexible (even though it's not if the individual is healthy). I believe that to some Ni-users, Ne (especially without Ti) can seem like mentally bouncing around the room at 100 mph.
- As previously touched on, INFPs tend to view the self as a microcosm through which others can be understood, and I think this approach can seem too limited to the INxJ and their more macroscopic approach.

- These are generalizations and, assuming they have validity, there are still going to be exceptions in every case.
- What I said about INFPs forming judgments slowly can be thrown out when someone crosses their deeply-held personal values. In that case, we can be VERY judgmental.


Thank you. This is a very insightful post.
 

Ene

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Haha, yeah, that's another possibility altogether. It's sometimes hard to distinguish someone getting annoyed by a playful poke and someone poking right back in the same mood. I blindly followed [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]'s 'What did calb do' question, while I wasn't even convinced calb had done anything - just that IF you were annoyed, this would be my guess why. Playfully poking back in a Fe way slipped my mind as an option there. ;)


Poking back can be fun.
 

PeaceBaby

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Hi there underwaterthing: Wanted to say I enjoyed your post and presentation of contrast.

Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions.

From an Ne perspective, I am not so sure about this anymore. I used to believe there was more openness but experientially the S types have proven more adaptable to updating or changing their opinions.

Let's look at some contrasts in this thread. (I don't want to pull you into discussion on this) but there is a high degree of subjectivity surrounding this purported openness to changing opinion. I think each INFJ who has shared in thread has taken the OP at face value. The statements of INFPs in thread, however, are not, and encounter fare more skepticism. According to yeghor, INFPs are in here to protect egos, and in anticipation of this common projection, the INFPs pre-disclaimed that projection. Yet is this taken at face value? No.

There appears a varying degree of ego investment in some Ni-Je judgements vs others, some are latched onto and pursued with much more vigour.

For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)

Yes, I liked how you expressed this.

...Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

And this.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
 

March

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I think each INFJ who has shared in thread has taken the OP at face value.

Offering a data point, I took the OP at face value. It was a face value story with some face value direct quotes, facts and descriptions of actions (I called her, she wrote a letter to me, the letter contained this sentence, she is older than me), some face value irrelevant background opinions (INFJ is very nice and pretty and much in demand), some face value first-hand feelings (INFJ felt put-upon), some face-value second-hand interpretations of feelings (INFP felt lonely) and some face-value irrelevant conclusions (INFP is childish).

I did not trust all of these different things atface value, and not for a millisecond did I think OP pretended to paint a complete picture.
 

PeaceBaby

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Offering a data point, I took the OP at face value. It was a face value story with some face value direct quotes, facts and descriptions of actions (I called her, she wrote a letter to me, the letter contained this sentence, she is older than me), some face value irrelevant background opinions (INFJ is very nice and pretty and much in demand), some face value first-hand feelings (INFJ felt put-upon), some face-value second-hand interpretations of feelings (INFP felt lonely) and some face-value irrelevant conclusions (INFP is childish).

I did not trust all of these different things atface value, and not for a millisecond did I think OP pretended to paint a complete picture.

ok, perfect. I felt pretty much the same as you, aside from being on the outside seeing an "INFJ lens" overtop of that story. If you don't trust the story, and know the picture is incomplete, how do you plug the gaps? And what degree of confidence do you have in how the gaps have been filled?

As you already know, I see your interpretation as probably the best that can be drawn from the information provided (mismatched expectations). But I am really uncomfortable bridging the gaps in this story and Ni seems more comfortable doing that. If someone like me can't or isn't going to tell you what I think because it's too premature, then we miss out on an "Fe vote" if you will as to what possibly may have gone wrong. How can we capture that? Or not have our very real need for more data dismissed as 'whininess'?

Can you tell me what happens next for you? How can so many others take a story with so many gaps and move forward with commenting on it?

Ultimately, my data gathering will contribute to a much more set judgement, and there's a lot of gravity in such a thing in my world. It is admittedly difficult for me to see how a whole bunch of Je makes for a way to a complete picture, especially since a lot of the world is not wired to provide that readily.
 

yeghor

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I went through a lot of tragedy early on in my adult life.

I was in college when I decided that.

I decided that emotions are like a horse. You can let them run all over your life, trampling everything in their path or you can put a bit in their mouth, harness their energy and plow your fields to yield the crop you want. There are times to let them run free, but I decide when. I control them. They don't control me. Mostly, barring a tragedy or something like that. Even then, I surprise myself by being calm throughout most ordeals and then I get the shakes....afterwards, when everything returns to normal.

EDIT: why I picked smileys and nature....I actually picked the people who looked like they would be the most interesting to talk to on a long term basis and those who looked the least emotionally volatile. I picked nature because I'm a very outdoorsy person, like to hike, climb, swim, garden, etc.

Well I'm in my 30s and still yet to master control of my F... I think it should be the same with other NFs...
 

prplchknz

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Just some thoughts - I still have a lot to learn about cognitive functions so a lot of this might be inaccurate. Part of the reason why I'm posting it is so I can hear feedback, so feel free to point something out if it strikes you as wrong.


A lot of this relates to what [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said previously.

A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.
For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly. They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening. For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
I guess my main theory is:
Because IxFPs are so sensitive to being judged, and also because 1) their own inner experience with using (inferior) Je suggests that it's very final and judgmental and 2) the flexibility of Ni in the healthy INxJ isn't always externally obvious, the judgments of the INxJ can come across as offensive, closed-minded and arrogant to those IxFPs who don't understand the INxJ's strategy of forming a single, dynamic vision (which has nuances that are difficult to articulate) instead of juggling multiple possibilities and waiting to form judgments like a Perceiver (esp. NP). This sensitivity can come across as prickliness or "boo hoo, poor me" egocentric hypersensitivity to INxJs. Similarly, INxJs can miss the depth in the IxFP's microcosmic way of thinking, understanding people, and forming values; also Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

Another general clash:
- To some Ne-users, Ni+Je can appear too inflexible (even though it's not if the individual is healthy). I believe that to some Ni-users, Ne (especially without Ti) can seem like mentally bouncing around the room at 100 mph.
- As previously touched on, INFPs tend to view the self as a microcosm through which others can be understood, and I think this approach can seem too limited to the INxJ and their more macroscopic approach.

- These are generalizations and, assuming they have validity, there are still going to be exceptions in every case.
- What I said about INFPs forming judgments slowly can be thrown out when someone crosses their deeply-held personal values. In that case, we can be VERY judgmental.

I do the quick judgement think, like INFJs, but like them the judgement changes as I get new info. Infact my mind has been completely changed about different people as I've gotten to know them. At the same time I hate being miss judged. I'm fine if it's true or is a general judgement, but if it's to specific and no real data to actually reach that conclusion, I get pissed. I'm a hypocrite
 

Ene

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Well I'm in my 30s and still yet to master control of my F... I think it should be the same with other NFs...


Every person develops at his or her own pace. Life experiences, culture, environment, family life, belief systems, etc. all play a part in what develops in us and when it develops. I think you're right, actually. Most NFs are in their 30s before that kicks in. I had just had a jump start. I had to develop it early in order to survive.
 

Ene

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..Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

I have never considered INFPs shallow and wishy-washy.

I do find them uncomfortable with finalization of ideas or projects, and for an NJ, that can be a little frustrating sometimes.

I also find that *sometimes when I say things they take them in a way that I never meant them.

Those are not put-downs, at least they're not put-downs from my view point. They're just my observations, kind of like saying, "The sun is shining. I think it's a nice day." Someone else who doesn't value sunny days may point out that I neglected to praise the value of rainy days or snowy days or tornadic days or various other kinds of days. I meant no disrespect toward other kinds of days. i just wasn't thinking of them at the moment.

Sometimes, I feel like the INFPs I encounter are verbally lashing out at an infraction of an internal rule that I never knew existed in the first place. It's as if I'm playing a guessing game because in encountering multiple INFPs is that it's impossible for me to know who values what ideas, concepts, etc., because each INFP is a different person and each one holds his/her own personal set of values.

I get along well with my real life INFP because I've been around her for a long time now and eat dinner or have coffee with her at least once a week. We talk a lot and I watch how she interacts and reacts to and with others. I pick up on what she values, but I think INFPs are like snowflakes. They're all made of the same substances but no two are arranged in the same pattern and each one falls where it will. I've had time to learn some of her rules, but even with her, it's often a guessing game, because some of those rules seemingly come out of nowhere and come across as "quirky and eccentric" to me. I know that they don't really come out of nowhere and if I could see through her eyes then I would know where they come from.

INFPs and INFJs come from different cognitive worlds. We can communicate but we need universal translators [I think ENFPs, ENTPs and other assorted life forms are good mediators for us]. We are always going to be slightly offbeat in our communication.

Personally, I have decided that I only have time in my life to be close to one INFP, because in order to do that, it takes a lot of time. That's not meant in a bad way. If I'm gonna have an INFP friend, I'm willing to put the time in but it can only be with one, because time and energy won't permit anymore.

So when I started this thread I presented two random people, one of which I know well, one of which I don't. I could not present INFP's view point, because I'm not an INFP and INFP lives on the other side of the world and comes from another culture. I know the presentation was INFJ tainted, because, I'm INFJ. I make no pretense that I presented the INFP fairly. In fact, I've repeatedly said that I didn't have the whole story. I only wanted to know what functions might be responsible for the differences. I didn't mean to "discolor" INFP. I'm sure INFJ was just as much at fault. There are always things left unsaid when somebody recounts a story. We're different but I just wanted to know which differences could have caused the downfall of such a "friendship."

You all lent a hand in helping me see and draw conclusions...yes, I said that...because that's what INFJs do...we draw conclusions. We don't do it to be mean or ugly or insensitive. We do it because...well, because we're just wired that way.

*Not saying every time and not saying every INFP...just sometimes.
 
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