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[INFJ] sympathy for the despicable

Eileen

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Though I always feel deep sadness for victims and am a proponent for justice (whatever that means - I am against the death penalty as a general rule, which I don't want to debate with anybody, but I do acknowledge the need for consequences/punishments), I also find that I am overwhelmed frequently with sympathy and compassion for the despicable people who commit horrific crimes--people who go on shooting sprees, mothers who kill their children, child molesters, etc. I suppose that these are the main types of despicable folks who I feel compassion for, and I guess that it's because I assume that they must suffer a great deal to do the horrible things they do. I always feel defensive for them when I hear people (or the media) demonize them, because there had to be real human pain there. I don't want to make excuses for the horror that they cause, but I don't want to disregard the humanity of these despicable people.

Am I alone?
 

substitute

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Nope. I remember having a dream where I found Saddam Hussein under a road bridge, haggard and ragged and on the run, and I felt sorry for him and gave him a bottle of beer!

I've studied Norman history since I was a kid, and developed a great fondness and attachment to William the Conqueror, even despite the despicable things he did... I find myself seeing good qualities that almost justify the bad... or at least, explain it.

I've studied the Charles Manson case in depth too, and find myself in sympathy with him.

So no, you're not alone, and yeah, I get it too - the people who assume that cos you don't hate them and sympathise, you therefore condone them. Meh.
 

MacGuffin

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What about sociopaths and others that probably don't suffer for the horrible things they do?
 

Ivy

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What about sociopaths and others that probably don't suffer for the horrible things they do?

Quite honestly they're difficult for me to fit into my framework. I have to believe they are suffering somehow, or that their lack of apparent suffering is a defense mechanism to protect them from awful things that happened to them at some point. I know that's not always the case, and the categories I've made for people in my mind don't always tidy up neatly.

My reaction is similar to Eileen's and I will argue vehemently for mercy over death (in fact it has pissed my mom off more than once; she's more of an "eye for an eye" type). At the same time, I acknowledge that some people can't control their impulses and are given to horrific ones and need to be kept away from the public. I wish we had a more humane way of doing that.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I feel a certain cautious sympathy. It is important to not project one's own innocence and sensitivity onto the cruel person. There are profound differences along with the commonalities. Very often cruel people are overly sensitive to their own feelings. They often really baby themselves, so don't need me to add to it. When I feel the most sympathy is when they die or suffer and everyone cheers. I don't pity them in the same way as innocent suffering, because I can also appreciate that an end has come to the suffering they cause. The pity I feel is that they are in fact a human being who hasn't merited kindness or sympathy. It is the most wretched state of things. It is a solemn moment in which I determine to not become them by celebrating their pain or death. It's a crossroads at which we define ourselves.

People who are mentally ill and cause suffering are a different case altogether. I would venture that 'most' mothers who kill their children and such are a different category from cruel dictators and sadists.
 

substitute

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I'm not sure whether it really matters to me, the question of whether or not bad people actually suffer in some way. In a way that's still 'eye for an eye' thinking, that you can only 'love' and forgive them if they're still being punished in some way or form or other...

My sympathy for sociopaths comes from back when I was about 11 or 12 and I was diagnosed as one - it turned out to be wrong and the diagnosis of attachment disorder was made when I was 13, which I've gradually started to get over in the last few years, making improvements there... but in any case, to begin with I'd be sent to these centres where they'd try to condition me and stuff, and I met a couple of adults who had been diagnosed long ago as sociopaths, and we got talking... neither of them have hurt anyone (physically at least) and have managed to stay out of jail - I'm still in touch with one of them. We talk in depth and I know that he suffers in his own way - not necessarily out of guilt or shame for the things he does (mostly not illegal, but mostly definitely unethical/immoral). But just because he's fucking hollow, and he knows it. He has a great thirst and hunger for FEELING, but can't seem to get any - and in a way, the things he does are sometimes attempts to engineer a situation to which he will have an emotional/compassionate response. It's fucked up, but basically yeah, he is suffering, because of who he is.

I feel pity for him because of that, but I'm not sure... I mean I don't think the whole idea of the fact that he suffers in any way, shape or form is actually a factor in why I have time for him. I can't really say what is... I'll have to think about it some more...
 

cafe

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I acknowledge that I have felt sympathy for both Andrea Yates and Jeffrey Dahmer. Their crimes were horrific, but some of the circumstances that contributed to their committing them are very sad.
 

Ivy

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I acknowledge that I have felt sympathy for both Andrea Yates and Jeffrey Dahmer. Their crimes were horrific, but some of the circumstances that contributed to their committing them are very sad.

Yep. For me, those types of cases are a snap. It gets harder for me to be compassionate when I don't understand, but it's just as important then, if not more. I don't want to Jesus all over the thread but it seems like if we only have sympathy when there is a clear mitigating circumstance (mental illness, for example) we've missed the point of compassion. It's the prisoners who are universally hated who most need an advocate. Not to argue for their release, but to argue for their humanity.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Yep. For me, those types of cases are a snap. It gets harder for me to be compassionate when I don't understand, but it's just as important then, if not more. I don't want to Jesus all over the thread but it seems like if we only have sympathy when there is a clear mitigating circumstance (mental illness, for example) we've missed the point of compassion. It's the prisoners who are universally hated who most need an advocate. Not to argue for their release, but to argue for their humanity.
The trick is arguing for 'their' humanity and not our own. I have witnessed the interactions between the very kind and the very cruel. The compassionate tend to project their deep innocence onto the cruel, while the sadist projects their guilt onto the gentlest of people. Part of their humanity is their cruelty. It is a horrific fact, but still remains. It is so different to approach this issue in the abstract than face to face. When wrestling with it on deeply personal terms, it can be dangerous to feel anything at all. There isn't really a 'right' way to feel about it because it is a scenario deeply wrought in irony. Whatever is true, the entire context, is important. Before we forgive the sadist, it is important to start by forgiving the minor grievances people have committed against us. Resisting the urge to judge and punish can be seen when we encounter the little annoying people. If we feel no compassion for them, what does our compassion for the dramatically cruel matter? It can actually be 'easier' to feel for a serial killer who never tortured someone we love, than to forgive someone who stole our hard-earned promotion or whatever.

Regarding people who have suffered as a precursor to their cruelty, why would being a victim entitle us to be cruel? It entitles us to understand suffering. It can just as easily entitle us to become more compassionate. The pattern that creates the greatest cruelty is one in which while vulnerable (as a child, etc) a person is made to suffer, but also given opportunity to inflict suffering as a way to cope. This teaches the individual that a sense of personal power is gained through cruelty. As rational human beings, we are able to examine ourselves in a context outside of self. This makes us more responsible for our actions than an animal like a dog which is primarily a reactionary creature.
 

Totenkindly

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I have sympathy for all people regardless of what they have done. I can't really help it; I simply am able to find the "story" or "pathos" in any person and see where their lives took wrong turns, see what they MIGHT have been, see what they COULD be if they made different decisions. And I am extremely forgiving of people who hate what they become and want badly to change, even if they're struggling and/or don't know how to make those changes. I'd rather help them and carry them, than damn them.

At the same time, I don't believe in protecting people in general from the natural consequences of their actions. Even the repentant, if they are repentant, understand the need to take responsibility for the choices they have made. I don't really like to spare people that, because it would not be just... and it actually takes meaning away from their choice to repent. (What good is repentance if you don't have to suffer for it? How do you know how much you really DO want to repent, if there is no hard decision to be made? Painless repentance is cheap.)

I am also pretty compassionate for people who are suffering things out of their control, who end up doing horrendous things. (Andrea Yates, for example -- who was clearly mentally ill, yet no one took necessary precautions or removed her from / protected her in her stressful situation. What she did was horrific... and yet she was clearly ill, not because of what she did per se, but because of her behavior and noticeable decline over a number of years before she murdered her kids.) This is not a lack of defending her children, who were also victims (and I'm a parent, so I identify with the kids); it's simply being realistic about what her intentions were, what was realistic for her to handle, and that if she hadn't been schizophrenic, she would have never considered harming her children.

And I also become furious when I see all the "Roast 'em / Fry 'em!" signs (or whatever) being waved outside a penitentiary when someone is about to be executed. The crimes committed were bad enough; to revel in another human being's death is also very hard-hearted, because I think it's tragic when any human being's life is completely wasted, by their mistakes or another's. It says something about our own hearts to rejoice in the death of another; I just can't do it; we are all part of humanity and connected.
 

substitute

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I have sympathy for all people regardless of what they have done. I can't really help it; I simply am able to find the "story" or "pathos" in any person and see where their lives took wrong turns, see what they MIGHT have been, see what they COULD be if they made different decisions. And I am extremely forgiving of people who hate what they become and want badly to change, even if they're struggling and/or don't know how to make those changes. I'd rather help them and carry them, than damn them.

Amen to that, sis :)
That's why I made that rant on INTPc ages ago about how pissed off I get when I rant or seek advice on a friendship or relationship that's causing me a lot of trouble, and people's responses are invariably "cut 'em dead!" I'm just not in the business of doing that. It's just passing the buck.

And I also become furious when I see all the "Roast 'em / Fry 'em!" signs (or whatever) being waved outside a penitentiary when someone is about to be executed. The crimes committed were bad enough; to revel in another human being's death is also very hard-hearted, because I think it's tragic when any human being's life is completely wasted, by their mistakes or another's. It says something about our own hearts to rejoice in the death of another; I just can't do it; we are all part of humanity and connected.

Like, totally. I think that's what I was trying to gather in my head and articulate in my last post in this thread... I think that people sorta 'requiring' the person to be suffering in some internal way in order to sympathise, well, they often paint themselves as being more merciful and compassionate than those who push for them to be physically punished, though in fact to my mind it's no different than the primitive, barbaric revenge-rage thing that has the 'roast em' people out there with their placards and pitchforks.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I have sympathy for all people regardless of what they have done. I can't really help it; I simply am able to find the "story" or "pathos" in any person and see where their lives took wrong turns, see what they MIGHT have been, see what they COULD be if they made different decisions. And I am extremely forgiving of people who hate what they become and want badly to change, even if they're struggling and/or don't know how to make those changes. I'd rather help them and carry them, than damn them.
What about the people who embrace their cruelty? I have found it is more typical for the excessively cruel to revel in it. There is no remorse, no desire for change. They do not desire forgiveness in any form. What do you do with those people? I believe strongly in always withholding a certain level of judgment simply because there is not a way to ever understand absolutely, but to never excuse for the same reason. How do you explain Sybill and others who suffered the most extreme violations known and yet never became cruel? Suffering is not a free passage to cruelty. There is a relationship of sorts but never an excuse.

What I caution against in these discussions is the sympathy offered the cruel person at the expense of the victim. It's worth taking a moment to view the scenario from every angle. Imagine your sister or mother was tortured, raped, murdered by a serial killer. Now imagine the advocates of compassion fighting the just cause of their killer's humanity. They go into detail about how his mother would lock him in a closet and his father was a drug addict. The poor man never stood a chance. We should all forgive him and be compassionate, good people. We should encourage the victim to forgive him as well.

It is never our place to forgive the violations a person has committed against someone else. The suffering is not ours, the forgiveness not for us to offer. Forgiveness is about freeing ourselves from the clutches of our violators. It is about not allowing them power to shape us into their hatred. It is the process of detaching from suffering, never about embracing the violator. If you were not in their clutches, you cannot forgive but only appear to forgive. It is a mirage and nothing more.

And I also become furious when I see all the "Roast 'em / Fry 'em!" signs (or whatever) being waved outside a penitentiary when someone is about to be executed. The crimes committed were bad enough; to revel in another human being's death is also very hard-hearted, because I think it's tragic when any human being's life is completely wasted, by their mistakes or another's. It says something about our own hearts to rejoice in the death of another; I just can't do it; we are all part of humanity and connected.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Such people are carrying on the legacy of the cruel.
 

substitute

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What about the people who embrace their cruelty? I have found it is more typical for the excessively cruel to revel in it. There is no remorse, no desire for change. They do not desire forgiveness in any form. What do you do with those people?

I wonder how it can be possible to make such a judgement about a person. I mean, without melding with their mind in Vulcan fashion, you can never know what goes on in the deepest recesses of someone's mind, all you can know is what they're willing, consciously and subconsciously, to show you, and what you can perceive and understand. You're also assuming that everyone is aware themselves, of what goes in in their own deepest anima, and forgetting the denial factor.

Basically, "judge not, lest ye be judged" is a good maxim for me... because I know how hideously complicated people can be.

Some people don't dare to desire some things or know that they can. They'd need a lifetime of down-time and meditation to just persuade themselves that they can have the audacity to desire things like forgiveness etc.

And some people are more tormented by their lack of desire for something, and the desire to desire it, than they are or would be if they had that thing, say, remorse, empathy, etc.

I know that I'm no stranger to feeling bad for not feeling bad for something I've done. Wishing I felt remorse, but being unable to, and yet knowing I ought to. Paradox? Maybe... but true.
 

Totenkindly

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What about the people who embrace their cruelty? I have found it is more typical for the excessively cruel to revel in it. There is no remorse, no desire for change. They do not desire forgiveness in any form. What do you do with those people?

Oh, you just had to find the loophole, didn't you? (!)

I tend to take a more pragmatic solution for them: They can't be allowed to prey on the innocent, and if they have no apparent desire for change, then justice has to ensure that they are not free to harm another. Each case is a little different. Some psychopaths seem to be missing a link in their brain; others make conscious decisions to harm and hurt others, while still possessing discretion; so I'm not sure of the exact "punishment." I still feel badly simply because I'm human and cannot know exactly what is the "right" response... but the innocent must be protected.

I believe strongly in always withholding a certain level of judgment simply because there is not a way to ever understand absolutely, but to never excuse for the same reason. How do you explain Sybill and others who suffered the most extreme violations known and yet never became cruel? Suffering is not a free passage to cruelty. There is a relationship of sorts but never an excuse.

I agree with you. I'm cautious, but at the same time no excuses can be made.

It is never our place to forgive the violations a person has committed against someone else. The suffering is not ours, the forgiveness not for us to offer. Forgiveness is about freeing ourselves from the clutches of our violators...

Yes :), very well stated.

I think the violation has been committed against the victim and the victim's family. The government "stands in" for the victim since it has power to implement justice, but the victim and those hurt by the crime are the ones who really are (morally) in a position to forgive or to maintain the judgment.

It's like with the Manson murders -- the three women are still in jail and come up for parole occasionally, and having watched interviews with them, I believe that at least one or two of them are completely repentant and sincere in their desire to serve the common good now... but the family members demand (due to the nature of the crime) that the women be kept locked up, in the name of justice. I have mixed feelings, but in the end these were the victims, and I think they rightfully have power in this situation to either forgive, or to release... or to forgive but insist on the punishment being carried out to the letter.

I don't know. It's very muddy and very internalized.
 

Lookin4theBestNU

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Good post Eileen and I know you are not alone :). I do feel some sympathy for certain criminals. Cafe pointed out Jeffery Dahmer and that is one of the very few I did. I watched a 20/20 with him and it was very interesting listening to how he arrived to the point that he did. However I am a supporter of the death penalty and just like the rest of them the facts override/veto my feelings if that makes any sense. (I'm not trying to debate here either just answering the OP!)

I feel great sympathy for his mother and the family of most killers.They end up paying a great deal to society. They have little hope of ever living normally again. I feel more sympathy for those too who are deemed criminally insane and end up spending their lives in a psych ward under lock and key. They spend their lives behind bars with few visitors I imagine. My imagination also leads me to believe they are societies guinea pigs in a sense (psychologically or perhaps even physically) much more than the public is made aware of. I feel as though these are the people you don't hear about too much, humanities cast-offs. I think however when it's proven that the criminal was well aware of right and wrong then they made a choice to commit the despicable act anyway my sympathy shut-off valve comes into effect. Temporary insanity pleas bother me too, just because I have a hard time believing it.
And I also become furious when I see all the "Roast 'em / Fry 'em!" signs (or whatever) being waved outside a penitentiary when someone is about to be executed.
I am not a part of this group though and it sickens me to see it. I would prefer to see that justice was quietly carried out but the media makes that difficult. Humanity has always had a morbid fascination with public executions and death which is unchangeable.
 

htb

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it's because I assume that they must suffer a great deal to do the horrible things they do
Bad assumption. In some people, malice is simply intrinsic. That can be observed by a layman, though better explained by experts.

It's quite possible to love the sinner as you fit him with a noose.
 

Ivy

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Bad assumption. In some people, malice is simply intrinsic. That can be observed by a layman, though better explained by experts.

It's quite possible to love the sinner as you fit him with a noose.

why is the noose necessary? why not simply quarantine him from society for the rest of his natural life?
 

htb

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What's wrong with execution?
 

Totenkindly

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One's ultimate concept of the justice system (generally, either "punishment" or "rehabilitation") usually contributes a great deal to whether one believes in incarceration or execution.
 
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