[INFJ] INFJ and Japan

[Jwill]

japan's good points being?????
1) anime/manga art
2) samurai flicks
3) tokyo fashion
4) iron chef
5) cheap consumer electronics
6) nintendo and sega
7) zen (a la japanese rather than tibetan, etc)
8) wabi sabi (gardens, temples, etc)

i'm running out of ideas. i'm not sure if i'm pro or con bedrolls. i'm borderline on whether murakami is really worthy of his own bullet-point. same with kurosawa and the guy who did spirited away (hideo something). sumo wrestling, i think, has got to be a definite no. tea ceremonies are another borderline, i want to say yes, but i feel like i'm faking it and just going thru the motions. toyota and honda- surely not.

Most of these "good points" are pop culture. They aren't really that representative of the true Japanese spirit. They don't really tell you what it's like to live in Japan. Many gaijin otaku come to Japan expecting to see the country they learned about from manga, video games, and anime. What they get when they come here is something completely different: real life. I mean, I wouldn't say that America's good points are American Idol, 24, pizza hut, and cowboy hats because those are stereotypical pop cultural icons. Oh, and also, cheap consumer electronics in Japan? I thought that once, too...

 

[kccrush]

I lived in Japan for seven years and think that most Japanese are S types versus N types. They also have a very hard time discussing there feelings, so my guess is also that they are not Fs. Finally, they are more extremists than open-minded in the sense that it's an island nation and they were raised to think it's their way or the high way. So the J attribute seems right on. Culturally I think you'll find many of them are ok spending time alone, and that plays into the idea mentioned above, that they are less likely to be vocal about feelings, etc. So ISTJ seems about right.

 

[Yloh]

From what I've been told by someone who was raised in Japan is Japanese people will always smile at you one the outside, but hate you on the inside. He is also Caucasian if that makes a difference.

 

[wolfy]

If you know the cues, what people are thinking is clear as day. I was reading this the other day...

...

In some families, you grow up with the expectation that it's OK to ask for anything at all, but you gotta realize you might get no for an answer. This is Ask Culture.

In Guess Culture, you avoid putting a request into words unless you're pretty sure the answer will be yes. Guess Culture depends on a tight net of shared expectations. A key skill is putting out delicate feelers. If you do this with enough subtlety, you won't even have to make the request directly; you'll get an offer. Even then, the offer may be genuine or pro forma; it takes yet more skill and delicacy to discern whether you should accept.

All kinds of problems spring up around the edges. If you're a Guess Culture person -- and you obviously are -- then unwelcome requests from Ask Culture people seem presumptuous and out of line, and you're likely to feel angry, uncomfortable, and manipulated.

If you're an Ask Culture person, Guess Culture behavior can seem incomprehensible, inconsistent, and rife with passive aggression.

Obviously she's an Ask and you're a Guess. (I'm a Guess too. Let me tell you, it's great for, say, reading nuanced and subtle novels; not so great for, say, dating and getting raises.)

Thing is, Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people -- ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior. Otherwise you'll spend your life in a cloud of mild outrage at (pace Moomin fans) the Cluelessness of Everyone.

...

I am a guesser and Japan is a guess culture.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I've studied Japanese for about 5 years, have lived in Japan for almost 2 and a half years, studying and teaching English, and have also worked as a Japanese translator at a Japanese company in the States.

The super-niceness you're getting is something that all guests, visitors, and/or customers get. It's part of the Japanese culture to be effusively welcoming. But that courtesy only goes so far.

I experienced 8 months of being treated so nice and people being very interested in me while I was an exchange student. When I went back to Japan 2 years later and worked as an English teacher it was a totally different experience. Visitors and 'stayers' get totally different treatment.

Same thing when I was translating. My Japanese boss would usually not return my 'good morning' when I came to work.

I'd be interested in hearing more about where you read that about INFJs being really common in Japan. But based on my years of experience, I don't think the 'niceness' you're describing can be attributed to MBTI.

I could make some really satirical remark about how this Japanese split personality fits the INFJ type perfectly. Fe mandates social niceties. But underneath Fe is a strong tendency to want to ignore others.

(Now don't everyone get their panties in a wad about what I just wrote. I'm just making a half-joking analogy.)


<Hopes they don't pay too much attention to the HALF-joking part.>

 

[Rainne]

If you know the cues, what people are thinking is clear as day. I was reading this the other day...



I am a guesser and Japan is a guess culture.

Interesting read lol, I personally lean towards the "Ask" culture, if you want something, just ask.

Though I've dealt w/ "Guess" culture people, you can't take the direct approach with them or else they find it rude...You have to gently "hint" it to them. I personally find that's bullsht, but then again, people are different.

 

[the state i am in]

I could make some really satirical remark about how this Japanese split personality fits the INFJ type perfectly. Fe mandates social niceties. But underneath Fe is a strong tendency to want to ignore others.

this doesn't make any sense. maybe for an aloof introverted type with Fe at some point in their function development, yes, but it makes no sense to ascribe Fe to "a strong tendency to want to ignore others" instead of ascribing it to the specific person in question. Fe thrives through communication so that it can stay on the same page and harmonize interaction through a careful attention directed toward mirroring gestures, language inflection, and exterior changes in state. what you're saying sounds like Fe wants to ignore others, but what it sounds like is probably more so introverts who want to avoid others because those others are being too pushy, crossing their boundaries, and assuming far too much about them that is in fact incorrect.

 

[Aleksei]

I wouldn't be surprised if INFJ was the most common type in Japan. I would be surprised however if American INFJs felt at home in Japan for extended periods of time. Japanese people are quite racist.

 

[Litvyak]

Japanese culture and history as a whole seems very INTJ-ish to me. The very idea of knowingly selecting the best available methods and integrating it in a unique wholeness for the sake of progress and survival reeks of 'INT'.

 

[Aleksei]

Yes, Japanese culture is INTJ writ large. That doesn't have to conform to the type of the general population however, because culture and history are disproportionately influenced by the actions of a society's elite (as opposed to its commoners). The most common type in the US is ISFJ, but its actual culture is ESTJ.

 

[CzeCze]

I think people who think Japan has a lot of INFJs or is an "INFJ" culture (as opposed to German culture which is "XSTJ" for example) have watched a lot of anime or possibly some really drawn out emo dramas and have a very romantic view of Japan that is not based on actual reality.

I appreciate the perspectives of what non-Japanese who have lived in Japan like Wolfy, Kccrush, and Wyst have to say.

Also Wolfy, I think the sociological term might be 'high-context' for 'guess culture'. Meaning you have to know the cues and be an insider as a lot of meaning and intent is unspoken and not explicit.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

this doesn't make any sense. maybe for an aloof introverted type with Fe at some point in their function development, yes, but it makes no sense to ascribe Fe to "a strong tendency to want to ignore others" instead of ascribing it to the specific person in question. Fe thrives through communication so that it can stay on the same page and harmonize interaction through a careful attention directed toward mirroring gestures, language inflection, and exterior changes in state. what you're saying sounds like Fe wants to ignore others, but what it sounds like is probably more so introverts who want to avoid others because those others are being too pushy, crossing their boundaries, and assuming far too much about them that is in fact incorrect.

Yeah, OK. I always say that I display my flagrant idiocy everyday. See above for today's Exhibit A.

I went back and reread what I wrote and, honestly, I'm not sure what I was meant. It didn't really make sense to me. Ugh!

Sometimes, I get writing and I get a case of diarrhea of the mouth (or pen) going on. I made @ 15 posts in the 30 minute period surrounding my post above and I wasn't making any sense. Sorry!

 

[wolfy]

I think people who think Japan has a lot of INFJs or is an "INFJ" culture (as opposed to German culture which is "XSTJ" for example) have watched a lot of anime or possibly some really drawn out emo dramas and have a very romantic view of Japan that is not based on actual reality.

I appreciate the perspectives of what non-Japanese who have lived in Japan like Wolfy, Kccrush, and Wyst have to say.

The way Japanese culture is at the moment started, started might be strong, formed and changed with the Tokugawa shogunate, from 1603 until 1868. The Tokugawa shogunate initiated sakoku. Sakoku (鎖国, literally locked country, or chained country) from around 1633-1639 and remained in effect until 1853. This served to ingrain culture separate from any outside influence.

Japanese people are overall aware of the influence the culture has on them. There seems to be a split in the thinking. That is where tatamae and honne come in. They are well aware that they are adapting to and using the culture.

It is interesting how much Nihonjinron (theories/discussions about the Japanese) has come out of Japanese culture. That would seem to suggest an introverted culture.

I would say INFJ myself. For Japanese culture, not the individual Japanese person. They are all over the place, making generalities a pathetic absurdity.

Also Wolfy, I think the sociological term might be 'high-context' for 'guess culture'. Meaning you have to know the cues and be an insider as a lot of meaning and intent is unspoken and not explicit.

That's interesting, I was thinking it had some similarities to informative and directive too.

 

[ajblaise]

Japan strikes me more as ISFJ culture than INFJ. Colorful, sensory, detail oriented, hard work ethic, meticulous, sensitive, quiet but group oriented, dutiful.

 

[Litvyak]

That doesn't have to conform to the type of the general population however, because culture and history are disproportionately influenced by the actions of a society's elite (as opposed to its commoners).

I am aware of this, and I disagree with INFJ being the dominant type in Japan or Japan being an INFJ culture. In case of common people, ISTJ seems to fit Japan perfectly.

 

[Aleksei]

Japan strikes me more as ISFJ culture than INFJ. Colorful, sensory, detail oriented, hard work ethic, meticulous, sensitive, quiet but group oriented, dutiful.

And has a shit ton of foresight and vision (Ni). Japan is the most highly industrialized country in the world, the most technologically advanced. Its culture is INTJ through and through.

 

[Resonance]

And has a shit ton of foresight and vision (Ni). Japan is the most highly industrialized country in the world, the most technologically advanced. Its culture is INTJ through and through.

Industry/technology is still pretty S, on a national level. Engineering is definitely an S-dominated profession (although the occasional N excels), and Japan's developments are definitely in the 'physical realm' rather than the 'realm of ideas', principally. Compare Germany; Germany is INTJ. Abstract things like green technologies, economic theory, philosophy.

 

[Aleksei]

I think you're confusing engineering with mechanics. Mechanics are usually S, but mechanics are not engineers, by a long shot. Engineering is not just putting industrial things together - it's outright designing and drafting new and innovative technologies. The majority of engineers are actually N.

 

[Resonance]

I think you're confusing engineering with mechanics. Mechanics are usually S, but mechanics are not engineers, by a long shot. Engineering is not just putting industrial things together - it's outright designing and drafting new and innovative technologies. The majority of engineers are actually N.

You can think that if you'd like, but you are wrong.

 

[KDude]

Japan makes good things better.

Like my jeans, for instance.

edit: same principle applies to tv's, cars,etc.. heck, even a lot of the dominant philosophy there is a building upon of other things (the social values and work ethic is confucianism and can be seen in different varieties across all of asia. zen is pretty much a mix buddhism and taoism..even iconic martial arts inventions, like the katana, are korean in origin)