[Fi] The One Where an Inferior Fi User Groundlessly Speculates about FPs...

[pinkgraffiti]

That was beautifully said. This is true for me too. How you ever managed to put that it words is amazing to me. Thank you!!

x2 we are at least 3 ENFPs now backing up this theory

 

[sculpting]

I prefer the term "polite disinterest"

I have seen INFPs exhibit polite disinterest-it is not unreasonable and I dont mind it, as the door is not opened in the first place. You know where you stand in a sense and you can along productively with the INFP. My complaint isnt against INFPs at large, but at dickish behavior on the part of one INFP.

This INFP uses it as a tool. He plays a game where he invites you in with congenial conversation, exhibits interest which invites you to share more, then shuts you down abruptly and even smirks. He is especially keen on doing this in front of others who come up in mid conversation-he shifts and then acts like the topic of conversation he initiated was your idea and is totally weird and he wants nothing to do with it. He takes it to an additional level by playing (inept) games at social engineering, where he excludes me from team lunches or group events and doesnt invite me to meetings. He creates the environment of a team, then intentionally excludes me from that team. It is very childish and I let his attempts at exclusivity affect me far more than it should. It is the opening of the door, which makes it hurtful. The false invitation-the bait and switch behavior, just to shut someone out.

His behavior also varies-when he doesnt feel threatened, he is not unreasonable, but the more threatened he becomes, the worse the above behaviors become.

The reason why it was of interest is that it is him using his Si to feed off the neurosis of my own inferior Si, while I in turn use my Te to feed off the neurosis of his inferior Te. Not kind at all.

 

[gromit]

I have seen INFPs exhibit polite disinterest-it is not unreasonable and I dont mind it, as the door is not opened in the first place. You know where you stand in a sense and you can along productively with the INFP. My complaint isnt against INFPs at large, but at dickish behavior on the part of one INFP.

This INFP uses it as a tool. He plays a game where he invites you in with congenial conversation, exhibits interest which invites you to share more, then shuts you down abruptly and even smirks. He is especially keen on doing this in front of others who come up in mid conversation-he shifts and then acts like the topic of conversation he initiated was your idea and is totally weird and he wants nothing to do with it. He takes it to an additional level by playing (inept) games at social engineering, where he excludes me from team lunches or group events and doesnt invite me to meetings. He creates the environment of a team, then intentionally excludes me from that team. It is very childish and I let his attempts at exclusivity affect me far more than it should. It is the opening of the door, which makes it hurtful. The false invitation-the bait and switch behavior, just to shut someone out.

His behavior also varies-when he doesnt feel threatened, he is not unreasonable, but the more threatened he becomes, the worse the above behaviors become.

The reason why it was of interest is that it is him using his Si to feed off the neurosis of my own inferior Si, while I in turn use my Te to feed off the neurosis of his inferior Te. Not kind at all.

How is it Si?

 

[sculpting]

Otoh, ENFPs seem to use a more dynamic approach - engulfing being one of them. It seems we use Fi indeed to anticipate anothers needs. It is after all our parental function which is used to express care for others. I used to use engulfing for everything but found that not everyone appreciates it so I try to do my homework beforehand now and keep my distance as I observe the person. If I don't get that chance, I try to match their steps, respond in equal intensity to theirs, let them lead. It truly becomes a dance. I also notice that if I get too enthused, I take over and befuddle them often. I try to only engulf someone who is distraught, these days - though sometimes I cannot help myself and run roughshod over them when I get enthused about something. But it usually is reserved for when someone just needs an oxytocine blanket *NOW*. I'll try to minimize any other blows or impacts and mold to the form they need me to be at that point. For the most part though, I just try to slowly learn the way others walk through life so I can mimic it and come along

Once I know their dance, I check to see if they want to know mine. If they are open to it, I might actually show them what I'm all about - up to the level they are interested. And yes, I do keep score as to what level that is and from there use all the gathered data to inform my decision as to what place they will have in my life, and what we can bring to each others lives.

Amargith, do you find yourself "engulfing" in a sense as a mode of perception, not emotional comforting? I guess I feel I use it to make observation about the other person, but it does not always translate to an external emotional response-they may not even be aware of anything except, that I seem a bit distant because I am focused around them, not spot on them.

I would never dream of emotionally engulfing an ENTP, all NeTe for those guys and all TeSi for the ESTJs. Different needs for different folks, but it feels very natural to do so-I will engulf them perceptually to understand their pattern, but appear emotionally restrained. this could be the sp/sx though.

 

[Amargith]

Amargith, do you find yourself "engulfing" in a sense as a mode of perception, not emotional comforting? I guess I feel I use it to make observation about the other person, but it does not always translate to an external emotional response-they may not even be aware of anything except, that I seem a bit distant because I am focused around them, not spot on them.

I would never dream of emotionally engulfing an ENTP, all NeTe for those guys and all TeSi for the ESTJs. Different needs for different folks, but it feels very natural to do so-I will engulf them perceptually to understand their pattern, but appear emotionally restrained. this could be the sp/sx though.

Sure, but i dont experience that as engulfing as such. Or maybe I do, but I leave that one as a last resort (see later in post). For me thats more of a scientific research-approach. I'll do that with people I'm not trying to bond with but have to get on with or have to work together with (my sx is showing...). It is more of an 'getting in sync with your programming' thing. It works like learning their dance, it is just a lot more focused on getting the steps down than it is about getting to know one another.

If it is truly important however, I'll make an effort to fully research their inner workings, in a very fast manner by 'engulfing' and molding as you suggested, I guess. It isn't something I like to do coz it means I could potentially piss them off and get in their way, but it is the fastest way to learn how you can help in this situation - kind of akin to being pulled on the dance floor and going with it, learning as you go as it were. I'm bound to make some mistakes as I'm not naturally attuned to what needs to be done in order to dance the dance correctly, but more to who they are, which means I'll get in their way or have to play catch-up. But once I've got the basics of their thinking process down, it goes a lot smoother, admittedly. Iow, I have a lot more experience and confidence when applying the oxytocine blanket

Sp vs Sx?

 

[sculpting]

How is it Si?

His response is the opening of the space that rex described in the OP-the withdrawal into oneself. Fi + Si

You ask someone to share, then you reject them in totality as they share. It is a bit like an INTP asking an ENTP to tell them about their idea, then coming back and instead of responding to the one idea, telling the ENTP they are too stupid to think at all. In general, I am okay not be included as part of a group-I adapted to being the odd kid out as a kid-but he plays games where he extends an offering, extends the connection, then retracts it, for no reason, over and over and over again-it feels like punishment.

It is my neurotic Si, as in the back of my mind Si tickles and says that I should be more normal-I almost always ignore it, and instead frolic in the bountiful fields of Ne, but there is a very real desire to be part of a group and be accepted as "normal". Fi + Si. The solution is not to accept the offer, but I do genuinely want to be kind and return his overtures, and not be mean.

My apologies, the above in rather confusing to read through

EDIT-in retrospect I do wonder if this isnt some sort of Ne to Si sort of thing he is flipping through. Thus he is unaware of how he closes down and impacts others. If my tert Te drives me to be competent, his tert Si drives him to be....normal? I dont know.

 

[sculpting]

Sure, but i dont experience that as engulfing as such. Or maybe I do, but I leave that one as a last resort (see later in post). For me thats more of a scientific research-approach. I'll do that with people I'm not trying to bond with but have to get on with or have to work together with (my sx is showing...). It is more of an 'getting in sync with your programming' thing. It works like learning their dance, it is just a lot more focused on getting the steps down than it is about getting to know one another.

If it is truly important however, I'll make an effort to fully research their inner workings, in a very fast manner by 'engulfing' and molding as you suggested, I guess. It isn't something I like to do coz it means I could potentially piss them off and get in their way, but it is the fastest way to learn how you can help in this situation - kind of akin to being pulled on the dance floor and going with it, learning as you go as it were. I'm bound to make some mistakes as I'm not naturally attuned to what needs to be done in order to dance the dance correctly, but more to who they are, which means I'll get in their way or have to play catch-up. But once I've got the basics of their thinking process down, it goes a lot smoother, admittedly. Iow, I have a lot more experience and confidence when applying the oxytocine blanket

Sp vs Sx?

Ah, the sx vs sp sounds about right. I guess when I think about the TPs, getting to know them is getting to know what they think, not what they feel, so I almost remove emotions on purpose? I havent really thought about it before. I have no mercy on the INTJs, they get the full engulfment, because it makes them smile.

 

[gromit]

His response is the opening of the space that rex described in the OP-the withdrawal into oneself. Fi + Si

You ask someone to share, then you reject them in totality as they share. It is a bit like an INTP asking an ENTP to tell them about their idea, then coming back and instead of responding to the one idea, telling the ENTP they are too stupid to think at all. In general, I am okay not be included as part of a group-I adapted to being the odd kid out as a kid-but he plays games where he extends an offering, extends the connection, then retracts it, for no reason, over and over and over again-it feels like punishment.

It is my neurotic Si, as in the back of my mind Si tickles and says that I should be more normal-I almost always ignore it, and instead frolic in the bountiful fields of Ne, but there is a very real desire to be part of a group and be accepted as "normal". Fi + Si. The solution is not to accept the offer, but I do genuinely want to be kind and return his overtures, and not be mean.

My apologies, the above in rather confusing to read through

EDIT-in retrospect I do wonder if this isnt some sort of Ne to Si sort of thing he is flipping through. Thus he is unaware of how he closes down and impacts others. If my tert Te drives me to be competent, his tert Si drives him to be....normal? I dont know.

Not 100% following, but the functions do tend to trip me up a bit anyway. I guess I don't see how what you describe is related Si, that is all. I had thought Si has to do with comparing something to an internal "database" of previous experiences?

 

[sculpting]

Nice.
How do you do this?

Rex please accept my apologies-I have derailed your thread via a bitch session about a random annoying INFP. I’ll cease and desist, its just been a cranky, bad month for me and I feel like being a total bitch for no good reason, but didn’t mean to distract from your interesting idea.

Regarding your question-it is like breathing. It simply is part of being. Engulfing/connecting/perceiving another is a bit like opening one’s eyes, then closing them again, breathing out, then breathing in again.. You extend the perception, then you internalize it and analyze. Of particular interest is the Si nature of it-Ne is doing the perceiving, but Si is where the images are being preserved and the templates (aka the emotional connections/molds/forms) are being stored. Much like an ISTJ recalls that a manufacturing process, in general, should proceed following a certain set of predefined rules, I would note that Bob will typically proceed according to a set of observed, consistent behavioral patterns based upon historical norms for his behavior, Fi patterns, not Te patterns. When those patterns shift, when the mold no longer feels like its Si counterpart, its people database entry on Bob, it is indicative of an issue of some sort with Bob. Given that I feel most comfortable when those patterns are complied with,as Si serves as an anchor, I will tend to act to ease Bob’s emotional state to return him to his norm via either emotional soothing or actions to ease the issue he is experiencing..

(Note how this misapplies an Si requirement of consistency to Ni or Se users-a perceptive failure)

Another interesting way this can be used-I never have to meet you to feel strongly for you. I grieve for the sadness of people I have never actually known, but because I can find a people entry in the Si database that comes close to representing them, I can generalize the feelings that I assume they would feel, onto that generic template, and feel their pain. This is why ENFPs can carry the weight of the worlds pain inside of us, to the point of being overwhelmed by it. I believe what’s his name said we can generate a Simulacrum of the other individual and I think the conclusion was that most of the time we don’t interact with you-we interact with the Simulacrum itself, our copy of you that we carry around. So much for real connection. 

This can lead to an ever present sense of guilt for all of the other things that we should be doing that we cannot do, to help people we have never met, to solve problems we should not be owning in the first place

 

[violet_crown]

I gesture frenetically when animated. I'm just not animated all the time. I also laugh maniacally with my whole body, but that's maybe another topic.

Would you say those are habitual states for you? I wasn't trying to say that INFPs are incapable of outward expression, more to examine a quality I feel is unique to that type. That quality of loaded stillness.

My e9 ISFP step-dad has a more calm presence than me, but also exhibits more general "pleasantness" or "gentleness", especially with strangers. I'm more aloof, but also more fiery when I do express - much more hot & cold, less "even", all or nothing. Someone once said there's something a tad "violent" about me. I just thought it was 4 vs 9. I would say that INFPs generally feel "heavier" than ISFPs, based on the ones I know, but 9s in general have the more still vibe. Or maybe it's just so pronounced in me it looks plain old "cold". I positively send female phobic 6s into a panic because they cannot read me & sometimes think I might cause problems. People don't seem to read well whatever is "exuded".

I don't think that an INFPs ability to create an emotional atmosphere necessarily points to positive or negative emotion. It's just whatever the INFP happens to be feeling at the time if they so choose to convey it. I don't really think that this quality is an unconscious one (as I think it's a Fi-Si phenomena), nor renders your type an "open book". It's also possible that some are more capable of/tend to rely more on the ability to create emotional atmosphere than others. I have no clue what it means, and it carries no connotation for me. It's just something I've observed in the type. It's interesting, though, that Jung has apparently made an observation along the same lines, though.

 

[violet_crown]

I see. You're starting to get an awareness of your own Fi, only to discover it's more interesting/valuable/complex/elusive than you first thought? I feel more like that about Te, lately. I've spent a lifetime being somewhat judgemental of Te qualities, and over the last few years I've come to see that it's more than I expected (if that makes sense). I've learned to appreciate it so much more and am learning to use it more effectively. It's become a bit of fascination for me to access those parts of myself.

Could you expand on this a bit? What "Te qualities" did you find you rejected? What do you mean by more than you expect? What fascinates you about Te?

Speaking from the other side, it seems like there's very little to Te. It's about as down home and basic as you can get, and is frankly without purpose without some sorta Fi heft behind it. I just view it to be a tool for evaluating an object and that objects relationship to other things. The facts either support your evaluation, or they do not. No more, no less.

 

[violet_crown]

Poor thing. In your case I think the Fi is trolling you pretty bad with your Fi insisting that its needs and views are important even though objectively and rationally they are not.

But isn't that the whole zen of the thing? From what I've gathered so far, if you only pay attention to the things that matter "objectively", then those more personal, subjective concerns start to creep up on you and rot you from the inside. Or just cause you to implode. I've banged into that particular wall enough times to not discount those needs, nor the value of attending to them.

If you wish to integrate I would suggest you either try asking which feedback Fi suggests fits in with everything else inside your inner world (I lack the ability to explain but the sentiment is shared throughout its network) by making logical determinations or ignore that area entirely and keep it subservient to Te.

I think what I struggle with is that I don't really have much of an inner world. There's no grid or network, so this actually made me chuckle a little bit. It's the equivalent of telling some Somali that if they're having internet issues all they need to do is check their modem and get back to you, then not understanding the blank stare you get in reply. Seriously, though, it takes lengthy meditation to have any sense of my internal state, or in some instances someone patient enough to ask me the right questions to help me recognize that I actually do feel such and such a way.

That said, I do have something of a personal code. It's not something I could articulate, but it's expressed consistently in my actions (or I make an effort to do as much). I can recognize when something is Right or is Wrong, but where I struggle is with determining that something is Right for Me. Does that make sense? I know intellectually that that is an important thing to be able to answer (and the consequences of failing to do so), but it's such a gradual, awkward thing to be able to do so.

/end baby Fi whine lol

(The bolded was really beautifully stated in any case, btw.)

 

[Southern Kross]

Could you expand on this a bit? What "Te qualities" did you find you rejected? What do you mean by more than you expect? What fascinates you about Te?

I rejected (what I perceived as) its: aggression, abruptness, insensitivity, black and white view of the world, absurdly high expectations, refusal to admit exceptions to the rule, pushiness, lack of sympathy - how demanding, judgemental, prejudiced, bigoted, presumptive, dictatorial and unforgiving it can be. Now I'm not saying this is fair depiction of Te but that's how it came across to me, in part because my ESTJ sister has displayed all these unhealthy sides of Te in the past. Actually, my extended family is one big Te-fest.

It was more than I expected because I discovered all sorts of little things it did that I never really recognised or valued. I've just been getting different vibes from TJs than I used to. A lot of things fascinate me about Te but most are vague impressions that are hard to describe. One of the main things that fascinated me is its ability to cut through the BS and make worryingly or stressfully complex situations/ideas/questions into straight-forward answers. I used to think that there was no downside to complexity but Fi's inclination for this (especially Fi+Ne) can be so overwhelming. It wants to make everything so endlessly complicated that it renders the world into a place without a single solid piece of ground to stand on. Te's ability to sort through it all and say, "it's just ____"; to summarise so succinctly, to find meaningful truth and clarity without the if, buts and maybes can be so reassuring, so unburdening, so enlightening. I'm slowly learning how to do that. It's really helped me to stop getting buried in the complexities and just find something that true and simple in all the mess of life - even if it's just in a joke or silly comment. I can also see how much that can that quality can be supportive and helpful to others. It amazes me that a function I previous found so cold and heartless can be the bringer of such kindness; seeing how a TJ can so insightfully, sensitively and conscientiously help solve the problems of others in ways a Feeler would struggle to.

I guess I've just discovered the underlying beauty and elegance that exists behind the directness - and I always find it intriguing to discover new layers and unexpected positive aspects to familiar things.

Speaking from the other side, it seems like there's very little to Te. It's about as down home and basic as you can get, and is frankly without purpose without some sorta Fi heft behind it. I just view it to be a tool for evaluating an object and that objects relationship to other things. The facts either support your evaluation, or they do not. No more, no less.

This is what I used to think, but I think it's a limited view of it. It's like how Se is described as just being about the literal physical world; just seeing things as they are; living in the moment. The most enlightening and revealing description I read about Se was that it's "contextual". It's not about 'the concrete' or 'the moment'; it's about seeing things/ideas/experiences as specific to a time/place/circumstance/plane of existence/whatever. It's about keeping things separate and uninfluenced by extraneous data so that you view them with clarity, purity and an attuned awareness. So there is a sort of brilliance and complexity behind the relative straight-forward aspect of it. Same goes for Te.

 

[skylights]

What an interesting thread

where I struggle is with determining that something is Right for Me. Does that make sense? I know intellectually that that is an important thing to be able to answer (and the consequences of failing to do so), but it's such a gradual, awkward thing to be able to do so.)

I actually very much relate to this in terms of Si failure... I know what feels right but I have a very hard time determining what things I ought to choose to create that rightness - like I have a hard time identifying what things have whatever corresponds to me in them, if that makes sense. I know the connection that I am looking for but I struggle to know what other things have that inside of them. It's sort of a crapshoot half the time.

It's hard to express how I know that something is right for me or not. It's a sense of whether it makes me "glow" inside, whether it stokes the inner fire of passion and whether it makes me feel whole and healthy and good. It's very unconscious, and very visceral. It's the feeling of NeFi ecstasy when looking at vast natural scapes, like the ocean or the mountains, or when I am in yoga and I feel simultaneously completely in my body and like it has melted away into the earth. It's like my entire being has just become pure energy and its energy pulses in tune with my energy. Have you ever read A Ring of Endless Light? There is a lot of prose and poetry in that book which feels very Fi to me... (though a lot of what I think is Ni, too)...

No one could miss the joy in Grandfather's voice as he said those alleluias, and his face was so alive, so alight, that I didn't hear what he was saying next. [...] It was obvious he was [...] rejecting their plastic grass and their plastic dirt. He was emphasizing the fact that Commander Rodney's death was real, but this reality was less terrible than plastic pretense. [...]

I thought of Ynid [a dolphin] and her grief at her dead baby, and I asked Basil [a dolphin], Is Ynid's baby all right? (Is Commander Rodney all right? Is my grandfather all right? Am I? Is it all right?)

Basil pulled himself up out of the water and a series of sounds came from him, singing sounds.

And what it reminded me of was Grandfather standing by Commander Rodney's open grave and saying those terrible words and then crying out, full of joy, Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

And then Basil was gone, flashing through sea and sky, to disappear at the horizon.

Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate. More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them. The ability to create a mood is more about bringing something forth than putting something forward, enabling the discovery of infinite and hereto unknown points of convergence.

Yeah... it's like... I dunno, I don't so much do the outpouring of myself that others have talked about. I do it when those I love are very distressed, or hurt, and that's the best way I know to create comfort, but I don't really do it on an everyday basis. Even then it feels more like just throwing all my attention onto them and being completely open to responding to them, more of a complete dissolution of self to become whatever they need than an outpouring of self (though it is very "me").

I feel like I try to pull others out of themselves... I don't think about my own energy around other people much. I mostly think about theirs, and minor changes in theirs, and how to adjust myself to get the best response. I want to get them to "glow", too, and it's like trying to figure out the keys to fit the locks to open that up within them. And I guess there's some inherent assumption (I haven't ever thought about this before!) that when both of us are "glowing", we'll get along just fine... because we are all connected and the same in some fundamental ways, and happiness and wholeness for you is happiness and wholeness for me.

 

[five sounds]

What an interesting thread



I actually very much relate to this in terms of Si failure... I know what feels right but I have a very hard time determining what things I ought to choose to create that rightness - like I have a hard time identifying what things have whatever corresponds to me in them, if that makes sense. I know the connection that I am looking for but I struggle to know what other things have that inside of them. It's sort of a crapshoot half the time.

It's hard to express how I know that something is right for me or not. It's a sense of whether it makes me "glow" inside, whether it stokes the inner fire of passion and whether it makes me feel whole and healthy and good. It's very unconscious, and very visceral. It's the feeling of NeFi ecstasy when looking at vast natural scapes, like the ocean or the mountains, or when I am in yoga and I feel simultaneously completely in my body and like it has melted away into the earth. It's like my entire being has just become pure energy and its energy pulses in tune with my energy. Have you ever read A Ring of Endless Light? There is a lot of prose and poetry in that book which feels very Fi to me... (though a lot of what I think is Ni, too)...
\

Interesting indeed! I'm trying to accommodate for my weak Si these days, and I like the way you put it. I'm familiar with that NeFi ecstasy feeling, and that might be a nice way to approach the idea of "listening to my needs" and doing what's best for me in any given situation without having to rely on my less than stellar Si. Some others suggested working with your strongest functions rather than working on strengthening weak functions, and that helps me see how that actually might work in an applied way. Thanks for the insight

 

[violet_crown]

I rejected (what I perceived as) its: aggression, abruptness, insensitivity, black and white view of the world, absurdly high expectations, refusal to admit exceptions to the rule, pushiness, lack of sympathy - how demanding, judgemental, prejudiced, bigoted, presumptive, dictatorial and unforgiving it can be. Now I'm not saying this is fair depiction of Te but that's how it came across to me, in part because my ESTJ sister has displayed all these unhealthy sides of Te in the past. Actually, my extended family is one big Te-fest.

It was more than I expected because I discovered all sorts of little things it did that I never really recognised or valued. I've just been getting different vibes from TJs than I used to. A lot of things fascinate me about Te but most are vague impressions that are hard to describe. One of the main things that fascinated me is its ability to cut through the BS and make worryingly or stressfully complex situations/ideas/questions into straight-forward answers. I used to think that there was no downside to complexity but Fi's inclination for this (especially Fi+Ne) can be so overwhelming. It wants to make everything so endlessly complicated that it renders the world into a place without a single solid piece of ground to stand on. Te's ability to sort through it all and say, "it's just ____"; to summarise so succinctly, to find meaningful truth and clarity without the if, buts and maybes can be so reassuring, so unburdening, so enlightening. I'm slowly learning how to do that. It's really helped me to stop getting buried in the complexities and just find something that true and simple in all the mess of life - even if it's just in a joke or silly comment. I can also see how much that can that quality can be supportive and helpful to others. It amazes me that a function I previous found so cold and heartless can be the bringer of such kindness; seeing how a TJ can so insightfully, sensitively and conscientiously help solve the problems of others in ways a Feeler would struggle to.

I guess I've just discovered the underlying beauty and elegance that exists behind the directness - and I always find it intriguing to discover new layers and unexpected positive aspects to familiar things.


This is what I used to think, but I think it's a limited view of it. It's like how Se is described as just being about the literal physical world; just seeing things as they are; living in the moment. The most enlightening and revealing description I read about Se was that it's "contextual". It's not about 'the concrete' or 'the moment'; it's about seeing things/ideas/experiences as specific to a time/place/circumstance/plane of existence/whatever. It's about keeping things separate and uninfluenced by extraneous data so that you view them with clarity, purity and an attuned awareness. So there is a sort of brilliance and complexity behind the relative straight-forward aspect of it. Same goes for Te.

I appreciate you sharing this as it truly gave me a moment outside myself. It strikes me that "aspirational" is as appropriate of a name as "inferior" for a types fourth function in that there's a sort of distance, and a richness unique to things just out of reach projected into it. An objective assessment of Te probably lies between your own very poetic interpretation of it and my own rather matter of fact one.

I kept thinking, though, that this is the spark that probably makes things work between couples where one has the other's inferior function as their dominant one and vice versa. That there's a sort of built-in awe for someone who can look under the bed and tell you it's free of boogie men.

What an interesting thread

If there's a more thoughtful and compassionate bunch to whom I could have thrown myself to the wolves, I'm hard pressed to think of 'em.

Yeah... it's like... I dunno, I don't so much do the outpouring of myself that others have talked about. I do it when those I love are very distressed, or hurt, and that's the best way I know to create comfort, but I don't really do it on an everyday basis. Even then it feels more like just throwing all my attention onto them and being completely open to responding to them, more of a complete dissolution of self to become whatever they need than an outpouring of self (though it is very "me").

I feel like I try to pull others out of themselves... I don't think about my own energy around other people much. I mostly think about theirs, and minor changes in theirs, and how to adjust myself to get the best response. I want to get them to "glow", too, and it's like trying to figure out the keys to fit the locks to open that up within them. And I guess there's some inherent assumption (I haven't ever thought about this before!) that when both of us are "glowing", we'll get along just fine... because we are all connected and the same in some fundamental ways, and happiness and wholeness for you is happiness and wholeness for me.

So really it just comes down to taking delight in others in a way that's mutually authentic?

 

[skylights]

I kept thinking, though, that this is the spark that probably makes things work between couples where one has the other's inferior function as their dominant one and vice versa. That there's a sort of built-in awe for someone who can look under the bed and tell you it's free of boogie men.

Yes! I feel this with my Si-dom. It was actually a curious experience to eventually figure out that he was an ISFJ, because when I first went out with him, I thought maybe he was an ENFP like me. He has a fluidity with information that is very much akin to my own, though his is all world-details that I tend to just assume into the patterns instead of extracting them. But it's like you discover that your inferior is inherent in your own processing - you just didn't recognize it because you were so focused on the other thing. You initially think that it is contrary to the way you see things, but you realize that it supports your worldview, even enriches it, because it solves a lot of the struggles you've had with your dominant. Plus with dominant-inferior pairings, an interesting arrangement of functions is set up such that:

ISFJ - Si Fe Ti Ne
ENFP - Ne Fi Te Si

1. Si evokes Fi in ENFP ; Ne evokes Fe in ISFJ
2. F is in 2nd helper/relating position for both
3. T is in 3rd relief/puer position for both
4. Both are Perceiving dominant

So there really is a lot of overlap in thinking, even though on the surface they seem very different. It's one of the reasons I'm not big on relationship-type prescription. Given any two types there are typically quite a lot of mutual "points" that they can relate at. I suspect it's typically more a matter of whether the two people are using those points to similar endgoals (ie, similar values) and whether there is inherent chemistry.

If there's a more thoughtful and compassionate bunch to whom I could have thrown myself to the wolves, I'm hard pressed to think of 'em.

So really it just comes down to taking delight in others in a way that's mutually authentic?

Yeah. Tapping into inherent "goodness".

 

[skylights]

Interesting indeed! I'm trying to accommodate for my weak Si these days, and I like the way you put it. I'm familiar with that NeFi ecstasy feeling, and that might be a nice way to approach the idea of "listening to my needs" and doing what's best for me in any given situation without having to rely on my less than stellar Si. Some others suggested working with your strongest functions rather than working on strengthening weak functions, and that helps me see how that actually might work in an applied way. Thanks for the insight

Oh well I'm so glad it was useful for you!! I am trying to focus more on Fi too for choosing... I've been trying NeTe for years to no avail. Good luck!!

 

[violet_crown]

Yes! I feel this with my Si-dom. It was actually a curious experience to eventually figure out that he was an ISFJ, because when I first went out with him, I thought maybe he was an ENFP like me. He has a fluidity with information that is very much akin to my own, though his is all world-details that I tend to just assume into the patterns instead of extracting them. But it's like you discover that your inferior is inherent in your own processing - you just didn't recognize it because you were so focused on the other thing. You initially think that it is contrary to the way you see things, but you realize that it supports your worldview, even enriches it, because it solves a lot of the struggles you've had with your dominant. Plus with dominant-inferior pairings, an interesting arrangement of functions is set up such that:

I think what you had to say about you and your ISFJ is lovely, Sky. I think it might make a difference when the function that does the inferior-dominant swap is perceiving or judging for how these things work out long-term. I dated an INFP for a while, and towards the end I started to run into the problem that I run into with many of my more intimate relationships with NFPs. I always find myself outsourcing some part of my emotional self-regulation. It's an issue that's symptomatic of the larger problem which is that there's such an easy division of labor with an IFP that I don't feel that I'm challenged to grow in the same way I'd be in a pairing which required more work to figure out. I don't think love should be painful, but I don't think it should be easy, either. He and I just sorta fell into a pattern. We stagnated. I don't want someone to defeat my boogie men for me. I don't want to need someone like that. I'm actually pretty blessed to have someone in my life right now who gets me enough to see my deficits, and manages to accept them while challenging me to be better than them. That's not to say that I couldn't have a similar relationship with someone who was Fi-dom, but I just think the temptation to just slide into that place of ease is there.

What do you find to be your motivation for growth when you and your ISFJ complement each other so well? Naturally, there's friction in opposites as well. But, for whatever reason, the most important differences between myself and the INFP felt irreconcilable. Like, certain things were just off limits, because it wasn't just a difference of opinion, but something fundamentally different about how the other one was. It narrowed our scope in a lot of ways, and contributed to a dynamic where the focus were those more comfortable things. It felt sometimes like it could go on forever in that surface kind of way, if it weren't so horribly lonely.