[NF] vegetarianism / veganism versus meat eating

[Beorn]

I'm considering a shift to a more ethical diet (by my own standards) which would make me lean more toward vegetarian as free range meats are so expensive. So some sort of inverse of meatless Mondays. I think I'll at least experiment for the next month or so while local produce is cheap and plentiful.

Edit: just saw the op so I'll expand.

I see ethical eating as sort of a goal to work toward and not any kind of absolute standard I impose on myself or others. I have a lot of serious issues with industrial agriculture and the treatment of animals. I also see purchasing local ethical food as an investment in the community and a part of redemptive action that restores the relationship between humans and the earth and humans and animals. I don't have any issues with eating animals. The better treated they and the happier they are then the tastier they'll be.

I'm Infp

 

[21%]

I have no problem with people catching/killing their own food. I think people who eat meat but refuse to kill the animals themselves are hypocrites. Unfortunately I think I might be one though...

 

[Bamboo]

I killed and gutted four fish with one of those combination steak/butter knives the other night. Someone else caught them and didn't want them and my kids had lost my filet knife. I was a little grossed out and had to get passed it to eat the fish, but eat them I did and kept them down, so I'm pretty sure I could get used to killing my own critters if I needed to. You just try to make it quick so they don't suffer long. I was more worried about distressing my kids than anything else.

I commend you not wanting to distress your kids, though...you let them run off with a filet knife?

haha i joke i joke

Yeah, it can be a little bit distressing killing stuff. You have to have a lot of clarity to make it clean, if you back off in the middle that's probably the worst. Commit. I'm normally the type that is rather attentive to what makes animals comfortable without crowding them too much so it's a bit unnatural. Like here was this critter which I'm trying to empathize with and interact with to some degree on its terms and then you kill it and it's clearly purely on my terms, I'm the predator, and it's just...dead.

I'm not much of a fisherman or hunter, but I've cooked up small game.

Still tastes good, regardless, in my experience.

 

[cafe]

I commend you not wanting to distress your kids, though...you let them run off with a filet knife?

haha i joke i joke

They were helping carry the fishing gear and I think it fell out of the bucket. Which I should have anticipated because I noticed it looking precarious, but it was hot and I was trying to keep the rods from tangling up. We're all a bunch of absent-minded klutzes.

Yeah, it can be a little bit distressing killing stuff. You have to have a lot of clarity to make it clean, if you back off in the middle that's probably the worst. Commit. I'm normally the type that is rather attentive to what makes animals comfortable without crowding them too much so it's a bit unnatural. Like here was this critter which I'm trying to empathize with and interact with to some degree on its terms and then you kill it and it's clearly purely on my terms, I'm the predator, and it's just...dead.

I'm not much of a fisherman or hunter, but I've cooked up small game.

Still tastes good, regardless, in my experience.

I don't think I'd make a good hunter but I like to fish and I think I could raise chickens and rabbits for food. Would rather not, though. I've kept chickens and it's more work than I like.

 

[Bamboo]

They were helping carry the fishing gear and I think it fell out of the bucket. Which I should have anticipated because I noticed it looking precarious, but it was hot and I was trying to keep the rods from tangling up. We're all a bunch of absent-minded klutzes.


I don't think I'd make a good hunter but I like to fish and I think I could raise chickens and rabbits for food. Would rather not, though. I've kept chickens and it's more work than I like.

There is a sort of chicken fad going on around where I am, everyone thinks they want to raise a chicken or 3 and then they find - this isn't something you can just set up and have it work without regular maintenance.

I suppose I would be curious about meeting the neighborhood coyotes, though.

 

[cafe]

There is a sort of chicken fad going on around where I am, everyone thinks they want to raise a chicken or 3 and then they find - this isn't something you can just set up and have it work without regular maintenance.

I suppose I would be curious about meeting the neighborhood coyotes, though.

We had a young hawk get into our pen and the hens were not amused. It probably had flashbacks if it ever saw another chicken.

But, yeah, feeding every morning and evening and cleaning every week or so is a drag, especially in the dead of winter. It is no doubt better than starving, but unless it looks like it's coming to that, I don't think I'm going to be that ambitious.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Isn't the "ethical" choice of vegetarian or veganism kind of arrogant? In that, we are blessed to have such a choice to choose what and how much to eat. Most of the world is not so lucky. Question to vegans and vegetarians for ethical reasons: how do you deal with this? Is it a judgement? Are those that need meat to live, not hunters? Is this similar or different to you? I'm just curious because this dichotomy is perplexing to me. Genuinely curious. Not being a smartass.

 

[Lexicon]

I have no problem with people catching/killing their own food. I think people who eat meat but refuse to kill the animals themselves are hypocrites. Unfortunately I think I might be one though...

My sentiments exactly, sans the last sentence- because I'm a monster (see below, haha).

I also know, some people are just more visually/viscerally sensitive to the sight of blood- so much so, that some might even have trouble killing an animal in a survival scenario. I guess I can't look at them ethically as hypocrites to that degree.. picturing them stranded on an island, vomiting whatever insects/plants they'd managed to find before they'd finally bludgeoned an injured seagull with a rock.. only to be unable to eat the protein rich meat.. & losing the other nutrients.. I'd just pity them. I'm being extreme here just to be an ass.. but it does have a kernel of truth to it, in some sense. /end tangent

Most animals I kill I have the general desire to consume for food, even snakes I've killed out of fear, though I haven't eaten one of those yet.

I don't know what that says about me.

There's something primal & satisfying about being able to kill & eat something.
I don't know how else to express that. I've seen wild turkeys blocking the road when I was on my way to the grocery store, super hungry, & I genuinely wished I could've hit them with my car or something.

I'll take it a little step farther & admit I have an odd desire to sample the meat of almost* any animal I could encounter in North America that would make me fear for my life by getting too close.
-Alligator (already ate it- tastes like chicken, I kinda figured)
-Grizzly bear (I bet would be gross though I'd try a little of it on principle)
-Shark (fish is good for you!)
-Rattlesnake/cottonmouth/python/boa (providing the venomous ones don't bite me after I've decapitated them)
-Most recently (after watching a documentary), the Humboldt squid.

*I don't list any indigenous wild cats of North America who could maul me, because all kitties are friends

I think I'd also like to eat any [meaty] animal that can live well over 100. Mostly out of spite for being able to outlive me.
Ok, entirely out of spite.

I killed and gutted four fish with one of those combination steak/butter knives the other night. Someone else caught them and didn't want them and my kids had lost my filet knife. I was a little grossed out and had to get passed it to eat the fish, but eat them I did and kept them down, so I'm pretty sure I could get used to killing my own critters if I needed to. You just try to make it quick so they don't suffer long. I was more worried about distressing my kids than anything else.

I used to love fishing when I was little/lived in Georgia (between ages 6-11)
I ate everything I caught - mostly bass, some catfish. In hindsight, I would have been more proactive about making sure areas I fished met certain health/safe bacteria standards, since some fish are primarily benthic, or consume smaller benthic organisms. But yeah, being a little kid, I was unaware/didn't consider these things.

Never got sick, & it all cooked well.

My dad taught me how to kill/clean my own fish when I was about 7. I thought it was interesting. I didn't feel bad killing it, since it was such a quick decapitation.. and I knew where meat came from well before then. I found removing the organs fascinating & got yelled at for trying to keep an [expensive] encyclopedia nearby once, haha. My lack of disgust kinda creeped out/disappointed my ISFJ mother, but my readiness to learn to cook them (something more... domestic) offset some of that.


Like I said above to Bamboo's post.. killing/eating something has a raw/natural feeling, to me.
Maybe those of us who can stomach it are primitive beasts.
I can accept that.

 

[Amargith]

Isn't the "ethical" choice of vegetarian or veganism kind of arrogant? In that, we are blessed to have such a choice to choose what and how much to eat. Most of the world is not so lucky. Question to vegans and vegetarians for ethical reasons: how do you deal with this? Is it a judgement? Are those that need meat to live, not hunters? Is this similar or different to you? I'm just curious because this dichotomy is perplexing to me. Genuinely curious. Not being a smartass.

Im not exactly vegan (yet) and Im not a hardliner, but I'll try to answer your question.

You re right, we have the luxury to choose what food we consume. I do not hold it against those that need to kill in order to eat. Im aware that people have to eat and that there are many in the world that dont have the luxury we do. I personally am not opposed to eating animals, I just oppose the way in which we implement suffering from the day the animal is born, to the day it dies. And yes, this certainly happens around the world aswell, where people have less options, and yes, I do cringe for that.

However, seeing as I *do* have the option to vote against this system with this abundance of food around me...how would it be ethical NOT to use that little bit of power I have to cast said vote and hopefully help bring about a change in mentality (something that is already happening, seeing as there are organic and bio farms now) to protect *all* creatures,not just humans from such a cruel fate?

And for that matter, the climate change impact alone that this mentality change in people would entail is well worth it and will protect those in other parts of the world where they do not have this option yet, just the same.

Lastly, the amount of crops the western world raises in order to feed cattle that lands on our plates is enough to actually eradicate famine around the world, which we instead put into miserable cattle bound for slaughterhouses to create the meat we so relish.

So you tell me what is more hypocritical

And for the record..that is a genuine question, not a judgement. I do firmly believe every person has to make this decision for themselves and shouldnt be judged for that choice. This aint something that people should be forced into, just informed on so they are aware of their options.

 

[Betty Blue]

Isn't the "ethical" choice of vegetarian or veganism kind of arrogant? In that, we are blessed to have such a choice to choose what and how much to eat. Most of the world is not so lucky. Question to vegans and vegetarians for ethical reasons: how do you deal with this? Is it a judgement? Are those that need meat to live, not hunters? Is this similar or different to you? I'm just curious because this dichotomy is perplexing to me. Genuinely curious. Not being a smartass.

Actually i'd argue that we have so much the market is flooded, small farmers can not produce the quantities for the prices so the industrial farms have taken over, such farming cares little for the lives of the animals it slaughters. The treatment of such animals is appalling. The waste is astounding too.


[gory image removed]

 

[SD45T-2]

*I don't list any indigenous wild cats of North America who could maul me, because all kitties are friends

Or the kitty might use you as food. Awhile back there was an incident not too far from me where a female jogger was killed and partially eaten by a mountain lion.

 

[Lexicon]

Or the kitty might use you as food. Awhile back there was an incident not too far from me where a female jogger was killed and partially eaten by a mountain lion.

I'm ok with that.. it just means they love me so much they want me to be part of them, right?

(this does not apply to other animals, logic be damned)


I don't jog so this would be less likely to occur, either way. That said- I'm also ok with Jack eating my face off when I die an old wacky recluse in my apartment someday.

 

[SD45T-2]

I'm ok with that.. it just means they love me so much they want me to be part of them, right?

(this does not apply to other animals, logic be damned)


I don't jog so this would be less likely to occur, either way. That said- I'm also ok with Jack eating my face off when I die an old wacky recluse in my apartment someday.

Well I was kind of expecting you to like the idea.

 

[21%]

...picturing them stranded on an island, vomiting whatever insects/plants they'd managed to find before they'd finally bludgeoned an injured seagull with a rock.. only to be unable to eat the protein rich meat.. & losing the other nutrients..

OMG!









But seriously about blood and general 'gross things' -- I think people are just so spoiled nowadays they cannot stand talk about things that are entirely natural, like bodily functions, or child birth, or how internal organs work. Life is ugly! Deal with it!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I have no problem with people catching/killing their own food. I think people who eat meat but refuse to kill the animals themselves are hypocrites..

That's a valid point. I should make it clear that I think I probably could. I certainly can't see myself having any issues with catching a fish and eating it.

If animals are organisms that have an equal right to life as humans because they have feelings or souls or whatever, why don't they have morality? And if they have morality, isn't the ethical thing to do to kill wolves and bears for eating other animals, including the sheep and livestock that so many people feel bad about eating?

I think a lot of the difference is honestly Thinking vs. Feeling. Even Thinking vegetarians approach their vegetarianism in a vastly different way. I don't think I've ever heard a vegetarian Thinker say that eating animals is inherently wrong, merely that there's something wrong with our current methods of agriculture.

 

[violaine]

I'm INFJ. I became a vegetarian at 13. I felt bad for animals. *rolls eyes at self* I think I stunted my growth because I stopped growing at 13. Which I deeply regret. I started eating meat again at about 26 and I have not looked back. I could happily live on meat for the rest of my days. I knew I needed to start eating it again because I was always so pale and emotional. And I used to have to work out about two to three hours a day to stay thin. I hardly need to do anything now that I'm back to eating meat. To transition, I used to make myself walk through the meat aisle at the supermarket to desensitize myself. It used to make me cry. LOL! Then I ordered a steak for my birthday one night and went meat crazy. .

 

[21%]

If animals are organisms that have an equal right to life as humans because they have feelings or souls or whatever, why don't they have morality? And if they have morality, isn't the ethical thing to do to kill wolves and bears for eating other animals, including the sheep and livestock that so many people feel bad about eating?

I think morality is a human construct and therefore does not apply to animals. It's not that animals are in anyway 'lesser' than us. It's just that the same concept is not applicable to them. I believe animals have souls, the same kind that we have, but when put in a different physical form they have a totally different kind of reality and awareness. In the grander scheme of things, nothing is inherently right or wrong; it's us who made up the criteria and make it so. Living and dying is part of this system we happen to exist in. In the end nothing really matters. I think that's why it's all up to the individual to find their own meaning.

Sorry if that sounds a bit existentialistic

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

OMG!









But seriously about blood and general 'gross things' -- I think people are just so spoiled nowadays they cannot stand talk about things that are entirely natural, like bodily functions, or child birth, or how internal organs work. Life is ugly! Deal with it!

Yeah, i really don't understand why farts are taboo, and I get annoyed with people who act like this. Perhaps I'm desensitized because I had a hypochondriac ISTJ dad who would always talk about how was "shitting has brains out" at the dinner table.


I also dislike in funerals how they try and shield you from the fact there's a dead person involved, just because it makes some people uncomfortable. I get no sense of finality just from seeing a box that I'm told has a body in it lowered into the ground. I didn't know that box, I knew the person inside it. But people get upset if you remind them that aren't going to live for ever, so we can't have that. There is no intimacy in modern funerals, because there's so much money in helping to cover up the fact that people die and are gone. It's like a stage play, rather than a meditation on ephemerality.

I want buzzards and vultures to eat out my organs, like the Tibetans or Zoroastrians do. I don't see what good my dead body is doing anyone or anything rotting in some stupid box. That, or maybe cremate me and plant a memorial tree or something. Don't treat me like I'm so damn important in the grand scheme of things that I have to take up space even when I'm dead. That being said, I find cemeteries to be really peaceful places. They're like parks without any kids.

I think morality is a human construct and therefore does not apply to animals. It's not that animals are in anyway 'lesser' than us. It's just that the same concept is not applicable to them. I believe animals have souls, the same kind that we have, but when put in a different physical form they have a totally different kind of reality and awareness. In the grander scheme of things, nothing is inherently right or wrong; it's us who made up the criteria and make it so. Living and dying is part of this system we happen to exist in. In the end nothing really matters. I think that's why it's all up to the individual to find their own meaning.

I think studying history and ancient literature and seeing what people considered right or wrong thousands of years ago demonstrates that this is so. I still nonetheless believe that morality is important and people need morality, even if there is a strong relative component to morality.

 

[21%]

That being said, I find cemeteries to be really peaceful places. They're like parks without any kids.

Same here! I love cemeteries -- but maybe for a different reason. I find them incredibly romantic. They are just so full of love

I think studying history and ancient literature and seeing what people considered right or wrong thousands of years ago demonstrates that this is so. I still nonetheless believe that morality is important and people need morality, even if there is a strong relative component to morality.

Totally agree with this

 

[Bamboo]

We had a young hawk get into our pen and the hens were not amused. It probably had flashbacks if it ever saw another chicken.

But, yeah, feeding every morning and evening and cleaning every week or so is a drag, especially in the dead of winter. It is no doubt better than starving, but unless it looks like it's coming to that, I don't think I'm going to be that ambitious.

Weird fact.

Historically, pigeons were actually a common food source. People built dovecotes link and some didn't even endeavor to feed the birds on their own. They simply built a nesting site for the birds, let them flock, lay eggs, forage for their own food, and then they'd regularly collect the eggs and occasionally a bird for easy protein.



Pigeons have been used for a variety of domestic uses for thousands of years, possibly long before chickens took the stage.

The guano is considered especially good as a fertilizer.