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[MBTI General] INFJs - do INTJs seem too "thinky" to you to be "really intuitive"?

uumlau

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INFJs - do INTJs seem too "thinky" to you to be "really intuitive"?

I'm wondering whether INFJs have a concept of what is "intuitive" (as a generic word, not a Jungian one) that tends to be inclusive of Ni-Fe but not Ni-Te. This is occasioned by a person whom I believe to be an INFJ (she had characteristic Ni pauses as she tried to synthesize ideas before she spoke) who observed that if I really were that intuitive, I wouldn't be as clueless about human relationships as I am. I didn't want to argue typology with her, so I let it go, but my response would have been along the lines of "I'm intuitive about things, not people."

So, in general, does INTJ intuition not really feel like intuition to you, as an INFJ, based on the INTJs you have known?
 

Fidelia

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To me it just seems like intuition with an entirely different focus. I sometimes feel like they can't always see through certain people, but I've concluded that perhaps we are just attracted to different things. I have a different set of reoccurring blindspots about people.
 

Z Buck McFate

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The first thing I did after reading the op was look up definitions for 'intuition'- to see if there's some larger association of applying it to people that I didn't know about. [I'm constantly checking to see if words mean what I think they mean, because someone will use it in a way that doesn't seem quite right and I'll feel the need to find out if they're the one using it wrong or if it's me.] And there isn't any association to people implied in the definition. So :shrug:.

I was married to an eNTJ, he's about as clueless as it gets when it comes to dealing with people but I can definitely see the intuition. eta: For me, I think it shows up most in sense of humor and generally being more patient with others' ideas? And I could be wrong, but I think that playing on words (puns) has a certain tickling affect on intuitives, regardless of Te/Fe. It's not that everyone doesn't understand the humor, but it's just funnier (or something) to Ns?

More eta: it also seems to me that Ni'ers have a difficult time being literal? Even with with Te, it seems like ideas are expressed via metaphor.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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If Carl Sagan is an INTJ, then I would have to say that I can feel the Ni. I tend to feel quite a bit of compatibility with INTJs.
 

RaptorWizard

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To me it just seems like intuition with an entirely different focus. I sometimes feel like they can't always see through certain people, but I've concluded that perhaps we are just attracted to different things. I have a different set of reoccurring blindspots about people.

The focus of our perceptions and motivations, whether the higher awareness and will to action are used for understanding systems versus feeling personal constitutions I would think (and I'm no INFJ by the way) are different categories of analysis. Systems thinking (for INTJs) I believe is very much an evolution of ideas which transform across various contexts, whereas personal feelings (for INFJs) might be more of a psychic sense to gaze inside of subjectives and their possible symbolic meanings for the soul.

If Carl Sagan is an INTJ, then I would have to say that I can feel the Ni. I tend to feel quite a bit of compatibility with INTJs.

Carl Sagan is actually listed under the Famous ENTJs on the Celebrity Types website.

I think this is a likely type for him. He's actually a very personable person, and also is obsessed with finding evidence or working applications for pretty much everything, which even seems to come before the visions themselves, and this seems to me more like an ENTJ thing than an INTJ one but (as Sagan himself likes to say), I could be wrong.
 

Fidelia

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I would argue that personal assessments are made very much as you describe Intj systems, just applied with a different focus. Not very psychic or subjective, so much as predicting based on observed patterns and current context, combined with underlying beliefs developed bit by bit.
 

Bamboo

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I'm wondering whether INFJs have a concept of what is "intuitive" (as a generic word, not a Jungian one) that tends to be inclusive of Ni-Fe but not Ni-Te. This is occasioned by a person whom I believe to be an INFJ (she had characteristic Ni pauses as she tried to synthesize ideas before she spoke) who observed that if I really were that intuitive, I wouldn't be as clueless about human relationships as I am. I didn't want to argue typology with her, so I let it go, but my response would have been along the lines of "I'm intuitive about things, not people."

So, in general, does INTJ intuition not really feel like intuition to you, as an INFJ, based on the INTJs you have known?

Wait...were you having an argument and she said "you're clueless about people"?

Cause, ahem, that might mean she's bringing up the topic as a conduit to say how she's pissed about something. Personal like.










just a possibility, i don't know what you mean by "i didn't want to argue typology with her", but it sounds kinda tense...
 

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So, in general, does INTJ intuition not really feel like intuition to you, as an INFJ, based on the INTJs you have known?
I feel that the INTJ way of thinking is very intuitive, especially judging by the sources of information they draw from. Sometimes it's uncomfortably familiar, but a bit bewildering, because the Te approach can come from a totally unexpected direction. I feel that Ni talks in 'essence', but what is essence to an INTJ maybe something totally irrelevant in my version of 'essence', so it can feel like talking to a version of myself who goes round and round in circles without getting to the truly important bits. I'm sure INTJs feel the same way when they talk to me and consider what I have to say rather frivolous. :laugh:

Edited to add: Yes, INTJs can be a little clueless about people, especially when they try to interpret people with Te and not Fi.
 

Ene

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So, in general, does INTJ intuition not really feel like intuition to you, as an INFJ, based on the INTJs you have known?

INTJ intuition feels very much like intuition to me. Ni is Ni, no matter whether it's challenged through Fe or Te.
 

Coriolis

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Edited to add: Yes, INTJs can be a little clueless about people, especially when they try to interpret people with Te and not Fi.
Can you give an example of this?
 

PeaceBaby

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Wait...were you having an argument and she said "you're clueless about people"?

Cause, ahem, that might mean she's bringing up the topic as a conduit to say how she's pissed about something. Personal like.

Yes, that crossed my mind as a possibility too.

A way of saying - you're not seeing this specific thing about me or these people or this situation, without saying it directly? 'Clueless' seems like a pretty big word to throw out there on the topic. idk, just a thought.

Or, a 'writing-off' of opinion if the clueless comment was made with a joking tone.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Carl Sagan is actually listed under the Famous ENTJs on the Celebrity Types website.

I think this is a likely type for him. He's actually a very personable person, and also is obsessed with finding evidence or working applications for pretty much everything, which even seems to come before the visions themselves, and this seems to me more like an ENTJ thing than an INTJ one but (as Sagan himself likes to say), I could be wrong.
That is possible, but I would say in his series, "Cosmos" he comes across extremely Ni-dom. I was thinking INFJ is even a possibility in terms of trying to connect with people very different from himself. There is zero abrasiveness or even complete focus on the knowledge of others, but he poses many questions and tries to connect a sense of everything, which all seems very Ni to me. There is also a quietness and gentleness to his demeanor that is low energy like some introverts. He loves the whimsy of his imagination ship that takes off and explores the nature of reality. I never knew him personally or what he was like in his personal life, but what he presented in that program was Ni-dom that included either a high level of Fi or possibly Fe-aux. I consider him a kindred spirit and my imaginary father or sorts. :)
 
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INTJs can be overbearing and alienating, while well-developed INFJs have a very charming balance between thinkiness and feelingness.
 

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The only person I know who I'm sure about as an INTJ is my father, and my impression of him fits what others are saying. When I learned about cognitive functions, I knew right away that he was an Ni-dom; it was just then a matter of Fe or Te. Ni but with different focuses. He is blind about some things about people which I think are obvious. But then before he retired, he worked at a car company and single-handedly saved them hundreds of thousands of dollars because he kept seeing tweaks that could be done to the machinery to improve efficiency, which I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to see in that position. So, no, I don't see him as less intuitive than me.



That is possible, but I would say in his series, "Cosmos" he comes across extremely Ni-dom. I was thinking INFJ is even a possibility in terms of trying to connect with people very different from himself. There is zero abrasiveness or even complete focus on the knowledge of others, but he poses many questions and tries to connect a sense of everything, which all seems very Ni to me. There is also a quietness and gentleness to his demeanor that is low energy like some introverts. He loves the whimsy of his imagination ship that takes off and explores the nature of reality. I never knew him personally or what he was like in his personal life, but what he presented in that program was Ni-dom that included either a high level of Fi or possibly Fe-aux. I consider him a kindred spirit and my imaginary father or sorts. :)

I've only ever read "Demon Haunted World" from Sagan, but I agree with you that he comes across as gentle and personable. I thought he could be an INFJ or even INTP. This is in contrast to books by Dawkins (who I think is probably INTJ), where his tone is more harsh and who seems to have a hard time explaining scientific things in a user-friendly way no matter how hard he tries. I want to check out more of Sagan's stuff anyway; I might get a better impression of his type later.
 
V

violaine

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I'm INFJ. My fiancé is INTJ. We are intuitive about different things. I'm intuitive about things based on emotions, i.e. people's actions and people based trends, (e.g. real estate hotspots and retail trends). And systemic things, though that doesn't feel as magical. He is more intuitive about logic based processes, e.g. troubleshooting software problems. It never really works when he applies his abilities to the world of people. It amazes me that such a smart man, (perfect SAT scores), can have his vision so obscured when it comes to people. !!! At times, I feel like Cassandra bleating into the wind when I'm talking about people with him. But then whatever has been crystal clear to me about certain people becomes clear to all and he shakes his head in wonder. I shake my head in wonder at his good sense too. Our intuition randomly intersects sometimes. That's fun.

As an example, I knew he was "the one" after one night of conversation with him. Actually, I knew within the first 10 minutes. We met in a diner and started talking and it was like a bolt of lightning. It was weird. He felt it too, but it took him five years to figure it out properly. Now he feels like I felt back then. (And I'm so glad). But he is so wise about work and matters of science. It astounds me. (Though, he says he did talk to me first so he must have known something, heh).
 

uumlau

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OK, I'm at least getting the impression that INFJs on this forum get the concept of different kinds of intuition. I'm wondering if perhaps, if an INFJ unversed in this whole Ni with Te or Fe sort of thing might see only the NiFe version as intuition, at least at first glance. (Another possibility is identifying intuition with "wisdom" - i.e., "correct intuition" is intuitive, but incorrect intuitions are not.)

Just kind of exploring, here. I'm not really interested in exploring the concrete case with that particular individual; it just provoked the thought. I am well aware that I leave all sorts of false impressions with people who don't know me well, yet. My fellow dancers often do not believe/realize that I'm introverted, or that I'm a nerd, and so on: they only see me dancing and fearlessly asking people to dance. Coworkers who only see the results of my analysis will only see detailed logic, not the hand-wavy intuition that led me to those conclusions. I know how most of those misunderstandings occur. This question is just another facet of the same thing, I believe.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I'm wondering if perhaps, if an INFJ unversed in this whole Ni with Te or Fe sort of thing might see only the NiFe version as intuition, at least at first glance. (Another possibility is identifying intuition with "wisdom" - i.e., "correct intuition" is intuitive, but incorrect intuitions are not.)

Looking for some ‘default INFJ way of understanding intuition’ (outside of mbti functions) might be one of those things that’s analogous to trying to find a ‘default INFJ favorite color’ (meaning: there is not default related to NiFe).

My son might be serve as an example of an INFJ unversed in Te/Fe. His father tests just barely on the 'I' side of INTJ (I think he's eNTJ, he might just be an e8 INTJ) and for years now my son has gone on a tangent to me about how his dad 'thinks like we do, but it's weird, it's all business'. So my son sees it- he just doesn’t know how to describe what ‘it’ is. His exact words are something like "I know Dad is capable of empathy, but it's weird." But he picks up on *something* in his dad that doesn't accept incoming information as is, that it gets tweaked in the same way, yet it doesn't happen to information about people. (Or at least, it doesn't happen in practice- it happens 'in theory', which is what makes it "weird".)
 

highlander

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I sometimes feel like they can't always see through certain people, but I've concluded that perhaps we are just attracted to different things.

I think you're right about this. When you get burned enough times, you get a little better at it.

IYes, INTJs can be a little clueless about people, especially when they try to interpret people with Te and not Fi.

He is blind about some things about people which I think are obvious.

It never really works when he applies his abilities to the world of people. It amazes me that such a smart man, (perfect SAT scores), can have his vision so obscured when it comes to people. !!! At times, I feel like Cassandra bleating into the wind when I'm talking about people with him. But then whatever has been crystal clear to me about certain people becomes clear to all and he shakes his head in wonder.

This is why I got into typology. It was a way of attempting to compensate for some of these weaknesses which I perceived as a serious impediment at work.

I believe the Fe can be attractive to an INTJ because it is a very different perspective which stimulates their thinking. There is a certain respect for the perspective if you can appreciate the difference.
 

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Can you give an example of this?
I've seen INTJs ascribe bizarre motivations to people's behaviors, which can be entirely logical, but somehow feel 'off' to me -- like "This happens, and then this also happens, then that happens, therefore the truth must be X!", which leaves me wondering "What about possibility Y, Z, A, B, C...?" One INTJ I knew believed a girl he liked had feelings for him because they had been talking more than usual and because she used a picture of her and her friend, who was his ex and 'first love', as her profile picture. I know INFJs do these strange 'leaps' as well, but the "this" and "that" that lead to the conclusion will be different.
 

Coriolis

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I've seen INTJs ascribe bizarre motivations to people's behaviors, which can be entirely logical, but somehow feel 'off' to me -- like "This happens, and then this also happens, then that happens, therefore the truth must be X!", which leaves me wondering "What about possibility Y, Z, A, B, C...?" One INTJ I knew believed a girl he liked had feelings for him because they had been talking more than usual and because she used a picture of her and her friend, who was his ex and 'first love', as her profile picture. I know INFJs do these strange 'leaps' as well, but the "this" and "that" that lead to the conclusion will be different.
Would you say this is trying to interpret people using Te, or trying to use Fi (or even Fe) and doing it badly?

I almost see what you mean. I know I sometimes try to predict outcomes (he will do X because of reasons A, B, and C), and someone will tell me some quite different outcome will happen based on other reasons which, to me, seem quite "unreasonable". In other words, I would never even have taken those motivations into account. Often they are correct, and I am left wondering what the connection was; how P and Q could have outweighed A, B, and C to lead to Q instead of X.
 
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