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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Why are IJs Pi-dom and IPs Ji-dom?

mintleaf

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Sorry is this is a really elementary question, but I've never come across any explanation. Why would an introverted judger lead with a perceiving function (and vice versa), while an extraverted judger would lead with a judging function?
 
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Cellmold

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Because for some reason it was decided that the last letter at the end of each type would be for what function that type extraverts in, so INFP's for example would extravert Ne as that is the function they most outwardly use extraverted types of course use their dominant.

I might have to check Gifts Differing again, but I can't remember a decent reason off the top of my head for why it was structured that way.

Essentially, though, it appears to be something to do with the nature of extraversion and introversion. So introverts don't openly show their dominant, instead their secondary comes to light, whereas with extraverts their dominant is extraverted already, but people don't always notice their capacity for introspection because of this.

And since extraversion has more focus on the external, it follows, (on the creator's terms of course), that IP's are perceivers, because that is how they relate to the outside world and it's structure and the same goes for IJ's as judgers.
 

Standuble

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It's probably best if you imagine the types as INFPe and INFJe. All the P and the J mean is that the extroverted perceiving or the extroverted judging function is preferred. It does not mean that a P individual will prefer a perceiving function most of all or a J would prefer a judging function most of all.
 
I

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Just to go off from what the others said: the dichotomy is shorthand for which type of function (J/P) they use to engage the world. Judgers engage the world with their J function (which gives them stereotypes such as being ordered, on time for events etc), and Percievers with their P function. So while, say, an ISTJ is technically a P-dom because of Si, it is introverted; thus they extrovert their J function (Te) so it's called ISTJ. In Socionics there isn't this problem - the final letter dictates whether their actual dominant function is I or E, rather than showing which is orientated to the outer world, which is a lot less of an irritating system, in my opinion.
 

mintleaf

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Makes sense. Thanks.
 

skylights

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I suspect that it began at least in part because J/P is so much easier to observe externally than Pi/Ji... lol...
 

21%

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I used to be confused too but I guess it makes sense. In a way IXXJs share certain 'judgy' qualities with extroverted judgers, so it would be even more confusing to have it the other way round.
 

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J types have their first J function in extraverted attitude.
 

mintleaf

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Would definitely take away from the validity of 4-letter tests & would also explain why IxxJs, when well developed, begin to look like IxxPs (and vice versa). I understand why the system was set up this way, but I still prefer what Socionics does.
 

freeeekyyy

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Sorry is this is a really elementary question, but I've never come across any explanation. Why would an introverted judger lead with a perceiving function (and vice versa), while an extraverted judger would lead with a judging function?

Because looking at the actual functions makes the system too complicated for people who only have a passing interest in typology or only need it in so far as it can help them to interact with people of a known type. Functions really only come into play when you're trying to determine what type another person is. If you know what they are, it doesn't matter one bit. You just need to know what characteristics that type generally has.

Even though IJs may be perception dominant and IPs judging dominant, you don't see the introverted functions as much, so it's easier and simpler to just refer to them by what they extravert.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Because looking at the actual functions makes the system too complicated for people who only have a passing interest in typology or only need it in so far as it can help them to interact with people of a known type. Functions really only come into play when you're trying to determine what type another person is. If you know what they are, it doesn't matter one bit. You just need to know what characteristics that type generally has.

Even though IJs may be perception dominant and IPs judging dominant, you don't see the introverted functions as much, so it's easier and simpler to just refer to them by what they extravert.
I wonder if this can lead to a misunderstanding of Ni and Si, since it is interpreted in light of the extroverted function. Perhaps the strongly introverted Ni or Si doms have a more laid-back, open-ended way of approaching life that is more akin to their Ne and Se-dom cousins?

I know that is how I am which causes a lot of misunderstandings with the "j" because people look at that and expect a "type A" personality.
 

skylights

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would also explain why IxxJs, when well developed, begin to look like IxxPs (and vice versa).

:yes: Even like ExxP, oddly enough... in prioritization of information-gathering... while IxxPs can look like ExxJs... Judging-dominant...

fia said:
I wonder if this can lead to a misunderstanding of Ni and Si, since it is interpreted in light of the extroverted function. Perhaps the strongly introverted Ni or Si doms have a more laid-back, open-ended way of approaching life that is more akin to their Ne and Se-dom cousins?

I know that is how I am which causes a lot of misunderstandings with the "j" because people look at that and expect a "type A" personality.

Yeah absolutely. Especially if a J has a lower-key Enneatype like you, like 4 or 9. I think that can be especially true for IxFJs - you guys are more "flexy" than IxTJs.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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:yes: Even like ExxP, oddly enough... in prioritization of information-gathering... while IxxPs can look like ExxJs... Judging-dominant...

Yeah absolutely. Especially if a J has a lower-key Enneatype like you, like 4 or 9. I think that can be especially true for IxFJs - you guys are more "flexy" than IxTJs.
Cousin-hug :hug:

I find myself in agreement with ENFPs in relationship threads very often. :)
 

freeeekyyy

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I wonder if this can lead to a misunderstanding of Ni and Si, since it is interpreted in light of the extroverted function. Perhaps the strongly introverted Ni or Si doms have a more laid-back, open-ended way of approaching life that is more akin to their Ne and Se-dom cousins?

I know that is how I am which causes a lot of misunderstandings with the "j" because people look at that and expect a "type A" personality.

Makes sense :)
 
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Sorry is this is a really elementary question, but I've never come across any explanation. Why would an introverted judger lead with a perceiving function (and vice versa), while an extraverted judger would lead with a judging function?

if this was just about name-convention, it's not exactly difficult to change:

new Ps:
INTP: Ni>Te>Fi>Se
INFP: Ni>Fe>Ti>Se
ISTP: Si>Te>Fi>Ne
ISFP: Si>Fe>Ti>Ne

ENTP: Ne>Ti>Fe>Si
ENFP: Ne>Fi>Te>Si
ESTP: Se>Ti>Fe>Ni
ESFP: Se>Fi>Te>Ni

new Js:
INTJ: Ti>Ne>Si>Fe
INFJ: Fi>Ne>Si>Te
ISTJ: Ti>Se>Ni>Fe
ISFJ: Fi>Se>Ni>Te

ENTJ: Te>Ni>Se>Fi
ENFJ: Fe>Ni>Se>Ti
ESTJ: Te>Si>Ne>Fi
ESFJ: Fe>Si>Ne>Ti

ofcourse, with the new system, now using terms like SP/NP/SJ/NJ don't mean anything function wise, neither do terms like TP/FP/TJ/FJ.
J/P would lose any description of character they might otherwise hold.
 

mintleaf

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:yes: Even like ExxP, oddly enough... in prioritization of information-gathering... while IxxPs can look like ExxJs... Judging-dominant...

Yeah absolutely. Especially if a J has a lower-key Enneatype like you, like 4 or 9. I think that can be especially true for IxFJs - you guys are more "flexy" than IxTJs.

So IxxJs look more like IxxPs (& vv) when they learn how to better extravert their dominant function, instead of relying too heavily on their naturally extraverted functions to engage the world? That was my initial understanding, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense.

e.x. When an INFP becomes more comfortable with self-disclosure and therefore less shy about his Fi, instead of relying on Ne in social situations, he begins to look more like an INFJ; as this pattern develops, he may begin to resemble an ENFJ? (I release that a heavy focus on Fi could just emphasize unhealthy/stagnant IxxP behavior...but supposing this Fi-dom is continuously sharing his thoughts with supportive, emotionally intelligent people, the downsides of Fi would be more or less weeded out. Would you agree with this idea?)
 

mintleaf

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ofcourse, with the new system, now using terms like SP/NP/SJ/NJ don't mean anything function wise, neither do terms like TP/FP/TJ/FJ.
oh, good point.

J/P would lose any description of character they might otherwise hold.
eh. I personally would rather see J/P stereotypes to their death. the categories mentioned above are actually useful, but the characterizations of J and P are so simplistic and just perpetuate ignorance, imo.
 

Thalassa

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Because IxxJs have Je like their ExxJ cousins. Make more sense now?

Socionics switches it around so that Pi doms are IxxP and Ji doms are IxxJ, but I think Socionics types may be different entirely. I know a Jungian ISTJ who is a perfect Socionics ISFj, which would supposedly be ISFP...

They don't really match up, actually, no.
 

Thalassa

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if this was just about name-convention, it's not exactly difficult to change:

new Ps:
INTP: Ni>Te>Fi>Se
INFP: Ni>Fe>Ti>Se
ISTP: Si>Te>Fi>Ne
ISFP: Si>Fe>Ti>Ne

ENTP: Ne>Ti>Fe>Si
ENFP: Ne>Fi>Te>Si
ESTP: Se>Ti>Fe>Ni
ESFP: Se>Fi>Te>Ni

new Js:
INTJ: Ti>Ne>Si>Fe
INFJ: Fi>Ne>Si>Te
ISTJ: Ti>Se>Ni>Fe
ISFJ: Fi>Se>Ni>Te

ENTJ: Te>Ni>Se>Fi
ENFJ: Fe>Ni>Se>Ti
ESTJ: Te>Si>Ne>Fi
ESFJ: Fe>Si>Ne>Ti

ofcourse, with the new system, now using terms like SP/NP/SJ/NJ don't mean anything function wise, neither do terms like TP/FP/TJ/FJ.
J/P would lose any description of character they might otherwise hold.

That isn't a new system. It's called "Socionics."
 
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