[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Getting to the POINT

[PeaceBaby]

However, I think Nardi's study shows Ti types are rather poor listeners. I suppose the tendency to tune people out because you don't find what they're saying "relevant" has its advantages, but the problem is when "relevancy" is always determined by the listener. It has to make sense according to a point they've pre-decided on, which will certainly make you miss someone's point if it's in a blindspot or covering ground that has never occurred to you.

I often will feel that INTPs create a strawman a lot because of poor listening. They hear one thing & assume the larger point or the reason for a conclusion, & then they write it all off as a whole without listening to the rest for clarification. To me, this again looks like "stupid" or "poor reading comprehension". It seems INFJs may do this also....

Also, the appeal to authority fallacy. I find it's not just the information itself, it's who delivers the info, and how the info is delivered. It's fascinating to me to see whole blocks of data just erased because of who said it. So, even though an INTP is a Ji type, there's still a lot of stuff they seem to dismiss as irrelevant. I wonder if I automatically dismiss anything as irrelevant? Probably if I feel someone is a total jerk, that might make my listening tune out. Even still, I can't help myself, I still pay attention to at least some degree. Even obnoxious people are not totally irrelevant.

Which leads me to ... what type is the biggest information sponge? Take as much in as possible, leave nothing out. Process. I am tempted to say INFP, but that's only from examining myself. I just gorge on information, am practically addicted to more and more. When I was a kid, I felt like an empty vessel being filled and filled with experience and information and other data.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Oh, and [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]: found a working link for your video: http://vimeo.com/7117832

From my experience, STJ's will let go faster when the facts are spelled out. But that was a great clip!

 

[Ene]

Hey, Flatlander,
Thanks so much for responding and taking the time to do a phenomenal job of it, too. I have considered the possibility that you are right about my friend. She could possibly be an INTP and has maybe been mistyped. If so, then that would indicate that the main function behind her communication style is not Fi. May I add that from personal observation, it appears that INFP and INTP have similar [but not identical] communication styles, so that would indicate that the responsible function is likely not Fi or Ti but those two are mere filters? Then it could be as someone else on this thread said, that the “getting to the point quickly is an Ni thing” and the “providing scattered info” is an Ne thing. [Neither is better or worse than the other; they are just different.]

Your assessment of her is very insightful, but I should have mentioned that she is very introverted, so I’m still leaning toward INFP or INTP. Yeah, inferior sensation definitely fits the bill.

About the bolded, I have no idea why I did that. [I was likely trying to multitask when I did it.]

Hmmm....I’m beginning to doubt some of the internet tests. Some of them seem very biased toward one type or the other. So, I have gotten a copy of Gifts Differing and am reading it. I have been reading a lot of stuff online, too, but as with anything, the experts don’t always agree and as you say, there is a lot of misinformation floating around and someone like me, who is new at this stuff, has to filter through all of it. Still, I will keep digging when I get the time. I am certain of my Ni. I have never had a doubt about it, but the other functions? I'm still working on those.

In MBTI by functions my closest alternative is INTJ, because I am indeed Ni dominant with T secondary. I'd actually rather a denotation like iNt, no J or P, as neither J nor P as behaviors apply perfectly to me on a consistent basis, and I don't put much stock in that indicator.

So, in real life, you might look like more personable INTJ than your average INTJ? I think that is a very balanced person and that it would serve one well if he or she were blessed to be that way.

I appreciate your two year’s worth of experience as I have only been at this since I joined this forum and I am still learning, still gathering perspectives and trying to assimilate them and dissect them in order to determine what they mean in general and how they relate to my daily life and how that translates into my job performance and interactions with others and how it relates to what I do and why I do it and to what others do and why they do it. Thanks again, so much. Your thoughts have been very helpful.

 

[Entropic]

Hey, Flatlander,
Thanks so much for responding and taking the time to do a phenomenal job of it, too. I have considered the possibility that you are right about my friend. She could possibly be an INTP and has maybe been mistyped. If so, then that would indicate that the main function behind her communication style is not Fi. May I add that from personal observation, it appears that INFP and INTP have similar [but not identical] communication styles, so that would indicate that the responsible function is likely not Fi or Ti but those two are mere filters? Then it could be as someone else on this thread said, that the “getting to the point quickly is an Ni thing” and the “providing scattered info” is an Ne thing. [Neither is better or worse than the other; they are just different.]

I have to disagree about this, as the Fi-Te and Ti-Fe axis will play the largest role in INP cognition and thus also affect their communication patterns the most. Being one I should know, especially as my auxiliary and tertiary functions are not fully differentited so I occasionally change between Ne-Si and Ni-Se.

While it happens that I Ne ramble in conversation, there is always a point to what I'm saying. Also, Ni rambles can be as bad from dominant types. It happens that I also Ni ramble but there is still always a point. It's Te pushing out making it so. I find that strong Fe users in particular often have issues articulating a point because their Fe gets in the way.

 

[Flatlander]

Hey, Flatlander,
Thanks so much for responding and taking the time to do a phenomenal job of it, too. I have considered the possibility that you are right about my friend. She could possibly be an INTP and has maybe been mistyped. If so, then that would indicate that the main function behind her communication style is not Fi. May I add that from personal observation, it appears that INFP and INTP have similar [but not identical] communication styles, so that would indicate that the responsible function is likely not Fi or Ti but those two are mere filters? Then it could be as someone else on this thread said, that the “getting to the point quickly is an Ni thing” and the “providing scattered info” is an Ne thing. [Neither is better or worse than the other; they are just different.]

Your assessment of her is very insightful, but I should have mentioned that she is very introverted, so I’m still leaning toward INFP or INTP. Yeah, inferior sensation definitely fits the bill.

If inferior sensation fits the bill, in the sense that she has it as a classic Jungian inferior, then she is not an INTP or INFP by functions - both of those have Je (Te or Fe) inferiors. She would be an ENP or an INJ.

Si dominants can also mistake themselves for Intuitive types, because Si is an abstract function in its own right and it works with Ne as an axis. I've seen Si doms do things like put together that someone is transgendered without consciously knowing how, just by looking at them - it seems like an intuitive leap - but when they investigate how they did it, it turns out it relies on a body of experience about what male and female bodies look like and so forth. Si gives them a personal slant on, and evolving body of knowledge of, what is sensed, so their experiential history and how they understood it matters.

About the bolded, I have no idea why I did that. [I was likely trying to multitask when I did it.]

OK.

Hmmm....I’m beginning to doubt some of the internet tests. Some of them seem very biased toward one type or the other. So, I have gotten a copy of Gifts Differing and am reading it. I have been reading a lot of stuff online, too, but as with anything, the experts don’t always agree and as you say, there is a lot of misinformation floating around and someone like me, who is new at this stuff, has to filter through all of it. Still, I will keep digging when I get the time. I am certain of my Ni. I have never had a doubt about it, but the other functions? I'm still working on those.

Based on our conversation and this thread, I might call Fe/Ti for you.

Intellectually, I look at Fe and Ti as being a pair that uses objective relation (or sees the outside world more holistically) and subjective differentiation (applying their own peculiar system). What that means if the two are in that order is that the Fe will look at how the world's relations work in a common context (i.e. group relations) and fit itself somewhere into that matrix, and the Ti will pick apart within that framework to find the finer gradations of difference accordingly.

Fe/Ti often looks softer than Te/Fi in the way the person's intellect works. On the other hand, considering the way they act, Fe doms can seem practical, strident or cold, kinda like Te doms. I currently live with an ESFJ who is a nice person and understands people and relations very well, complete with inferior Ti confusion when she tries to structure her thinking or grasp structure in the first place, but incredibly practical, down to earth and high-strung about her work and life, sometimes getting stuck in needing things about/with others to be the way her culture/background dictates (enneagram core 1, 3/4 fix).

So, in real life, you might look like more personable INTJ than your average INTJ? I think that is a very balanced person and that it would serve one well if he or she were blessed to be that way.

Eh. I don't have the greatest awareness of how I look, I might seem that way but it's a tough call. My own assessment would be that I fluctuate, but considering it through enneagram, I have a tendency to not perpetuate conflict (9 fix) and to offer my understanding (2 fix). I try to solve problems that come up, and when I want to win in a conflict I try to do it surgically, with little blood loss - as efficiently as I can.

I appreciate your two year’s worth of experience as I have only been at this since I joined this forum and I am still learning, still gathering perspectives and trying to assimilate them and dissect them in order to determine what they mean in general and how they relate to my daily life and how that translates into my job performance and interactions with others and how it relates to what I do and why I do it and to what others do and why they do it. Thanks again, so much. Your thoughts have been very helpful.

Best of luck.

 

[Ene]

Thanks, Lea, for providing another way of looking at it.

Thank you, Flatlander, for my friend, I will consider other possiblities. Also, I may refer back to your post here from time to time as I work through this stuff. As for me, you're probably right. I believe myself to be INFJ, because nothing else comes close to fitting, either that, or maybe I'm not really human There are those who live around me who have their doubts.

 

[cafe]

So if you need to have an idea of what the point is in order to be able to give someone the attentiveness they deserve, what is a good way to ask for what you need without causing your friend offense or pain?

 

[Flatlander]

maybe I'm not really human There are those who live around me who have their doubts.

If I might ask, why?

 

[Ene]

Yes, you may and I will tell you to the best of my ability. [I'm sorry that is a long response, but I hope there is something worthwhile in it.]

Oh, they mostly just tease me, I think.

One has to do with memory: I get a lot lines from my family like this, "I don't see no points on your ears, so how do you remember so exaclty?" And another one is, "Are you an antroid or something?" And sometimes I get called a "walking encyclopedia".


I think another reason has to do with...well, I get told this, "I feel like you know everything about me. I don't like to be around you." [yes, I've literally been told this many times, even when I wasn't saying a word to indicate that in any way whatsoever.] I want to tell you that I do not going around trying to tell people about themselves. I have a hard enough time keeping me straight. I don't want to straighten out other people, too.

I'm full of odd facts and useless information [at least to most people they're useless].

I remember almost anything that I listen to and I absorb my surroundings, sight, sound, smell and the way it feels, even the mood of an environment or of the people in that environment. For example, if I met you in real life, I'd immediately notice your height, approximate weight, probable measurements, hair color, eye color, shoe size, pitch of your voice, your accent or lack of one, your clothing style, you car make and liscense plate number. I would notice you body language and if your eyes looked tired or not or if you seemed frazzled or hurried. If you told me your birthday or phone number I may remember it years down the road. I never forget a face and rarely forget a name or facts about a person. [I can remember phone numbers and birthdays of kids I went to school with when I was in first grade!] I would notice any tics that you may have. If you have a visible scar or tattoo, I'd notice that, too. I would notice your bone structure, your hands and the way you walk. Ten years later, I could draw your picture from that memory and it would look like you did on the day I saw you. I don't try to do it. Stuff just soaks into my brain without me realizing it. I mean I can just be sitting there talking to you, eating pizza or whatever and three years later somebody might ask me what you were wearing that time we went out for pizza and I could tell them. Crazy talent, huh?

Or maybe that's normal for lots of people who just don't happen to live in my immediate surroundings. It does get irritating sometimes because it means that I notice EVERYTHING about everybody, even when they're lying to me and when they really don't want to be there. I've really had to grow a thick skin and I've learned not to correct people when they're talking and I've had to learn to let a lot of little things go and just forgive people because when I examine myself, I realize that I'm glad that not everyone around me shares my ability to absorb so much, because I wouldn't want it turned back on me! It's not like reading minds or anything, it's just noticing everything about a person and instinctively knowing 'stuff'. Some people that have married into my family won't even come around me, even though I've never done anything to them. One guy told my niece [she told me over the phone why he wasn't coming to my house with her] that I was scary. My niece said, "But she's really sweet." He said, "I feel like she knows everything I've ever done." Of course, I don't know everything he's ever done and I've never said anything to indicate it, but he says I make him uneasy. One lady I know confessed to me that for a long time she didn't want to be near me because she felt like I could look at her and see her whole life. I told her that I didn't do that and even if I did know some hidden thing about her that I'd never tell anyone. I try to turn it off sometimes, but it won't turn off.

Anyway, those are the reasons why I get that from people I think.

 

[Ene]

So if you need to have an idea of what the point is in order to be able to give someone the attentiveness they deserve, what is a good way to ask for what you need without causing your friend offense or pain?

That is a good question, Cafe, but I don't know the answer. haha...I wish I did.

 

[Flatlander]

Yes, you may and I will tell you to the best of my ability. [I'm sorry that is a long response, but I hope there is something worthwhile in it.]

Oh, they mostly just tease me, I think.

One has to do with memory: I get a lot lines from my family like this, "I don't see no points on your ears, so how do you remember so exaclty?" And another one is, "Are you an antroid or something?" And sometimes I get called a "walking encyclopedia".


I think another reason has to do with...well, I get told this, "I feel like you know everything about me. I don't like to be around you." [yes, I've literally been told this many times, even when I wasn't saying a word to indicate that in any way whatsoever.] I want to tell you that I do not going around trying to tell people about themselves. I have a hard enough time keeping me straight. I don't want to straighten out other people, too.

I'm full of odd facts and useless information [at least to most people they're useless].

I remember almost anything that I listen to and I absorb my surroundings, sight, sound, smell and the way it feels, even the mood of an environment or of the people in that environment. For example, if I met you in real life, I'd immediately notice your height, approximate weight, probable measurements, hair color, eye color, shoe size, pitch of your voice, your accent or lack of one, your clothing style, you car make and liscense plate number. I would notice you body language and if your eyes looked tired or not or if you seemed frazzled or hurried. If you told me your birthday or phone number I may remember it years down the road. I never forget a face and rarely forget a name or facts about a person. [I can remember phone numbers and birthdays of kids I went to school with when I was in first grade!] I would notice any tics that you may have. If you have a visible scar or tattoo, I'd notice that, too. I would notice your bone structure, your hands and the way you walk. Ten years later, I could draw your picture from that memory and it would look like you did on the day I saw you. I don't try to do it. Stuff just soaks into my brain without me realizing it. I mean I can just be sitting there talking to you, eating pizza or whatever and three years later somebody might ask me what you were wearing that time we went out for pizza and I could tell them. Crazy talent, huh?

Or maybe that's normal for lots of people who just don't happen to live in my immediate surroundings. It does get irritating sometimes because it means that I notice EVERYTHING about everybody, even when they're lying to me and when they really don't want to be there. I've really had to grow a thick skin and I've learned not to correct people when they're talking and I've had to learn to let a lot of little things go and just forgive people because when I examine myself, I realize that I'm glad that not everyone around me shares my ability to absorb so much, because I wouldn't want it turned back on me! It's not like reading minds or anything, it's just noticing everything about a person and instinctively knowing 'stuff'. Some people that have married into my family won't even come around me, even though I've never done anything to them. One guy told my niece [she told me over the phone why he wasn't coming to my house with her] that I was scary. My niece said, "But she's really sweet." He said, "I feel like she knows everything I've ever done." Of course, I don't know everything he's ever done and I've never said anything to indicate it, but he says I make him uneasy. One lady I know confessed to me that for a long time she didn't want to be near me because she felt like I could look at her and see her whole life. I told her that I didn't do that and even if I did know some hidden thing about her that I'd never tell anyone. I try to turn it off sometimes, but it won't turn off.

Anyway, those are the reasons why I get that from people I think.

All of this makes me think Sensation. So unbridled that just reading it all made me dizzy.

When I start thinking about this mindset I just want to curl up into the fetal position. I get that it's just how some people work and it seems fine for them, but applying it personally is painful. I shut the world of sensation *out* as a kid and used my mindset to have a measure of control over it - that's part of why I developed with Ni dominance.

Due to the focus, I'd put an auxiliary Feeling to it. So, have you considered ISFJ or ESFP?

 

[Ene]

No, I haven't considered them. First, ESFP. No one who knows me would ever even consider that one and ISFJ...while on the surface it may appear to be, I can't be certain of it. It's not a mindset that I know those things. I don't even think about sensation stuff. I just absorb it, take it in like air, and then I am able to make inferences, to synthesize, based upon what has come to me. For example, I may look at a person and instinctively take in all that stuff about them and I may deduce within a manner of seconds that a person has had a significant loss in their life or is going through a hard time, without them saying anything about it. I may be able to tell that a person is afraid or apprehensive. It's almost like an instinct. I can also predict what the outcome of many given situations is going to be. At any rate, if it is ISFJ, then it serves me well and I won't complain. I have contacted a person who has been researching MBTI for over fifteen years. She is looking at my profile.

Thanks again for your input on this thread. I will not be back on here for some time. In fact, I'm going to post a final blog post here and then I'm off for the summer. [I know. It's technically spring, but my busy season starts in April and runs through October. During those months free time is precious to me and I like to spend it training and writing. I do most of my novels, painting and poetry in the summer months. Plus, I think I want to learn a new language this summer.] I hope that at night, I will find a great deal of reading material on my new-found interest, cognitive functions. Who knows how this might effect my writing? It will certainly be interesting to see what kinds of personalities my characters will come up with I love to build worlds, languages and even number systems. I love to build societies and delve into the genetic and psychological traits of those societies. It might be fun to build a society where ESFP traits are highly valued or where INTJ traits are highly valued [although, I think in sci-fi that has been done a lot.]

 

[Flatlander]

No, I haven't considered them. First, ESFP. No one who knows me would ever even consider that one

Why not?

and ISFJ...while on the surface it may appear to be, I can't be certain of it. It's not a mindset that I know those things. I don't even think about sensation stuff. I just absorb it, take it in like air, and then I am able to make inferences, to synthesize, based upon what has come to me. For example, I may look at a person and instinctively take in all that stuff about them and I may deduce within a manner of seconds that a person has had a significant loss in their life or is going through a hard time, without them saying anything about it. I may be able to tell that a person is afraid or apprehensive. It's almost like an instinct. I can also predict what the outcome of many given situations is going to be. At any rate, if it is ISFJ, then it serves me well and I won't complain. I have contacted a person who has been researching MBTI for over fifteen years. She is looking at my profile.

I explained before how Si dominance can show up looking like intuition.

I'm not really talking flat-out MBTI anymore, I'm talking more in a functional vein. Popular MBTI deals primarily with persona - how you seem to the world or want to - while I prefer to consider the cognitive dynamics to make my determination. You're likely a dominant perceiver, which leaves Si, Se, Ne, Ni as your likely dominants, and out of those it looks like Si or Se because you've ingrained it to the point where it's not even conscious action that leads you to deal on this level, it's habit. It's what Socionics would call the "base function", where you're not even bothered to think about it, and this idea is backed up by the fact that you seemed only to mention it about yourself in retrospect.

I might be more inclined to claim Si > Ne than Se > Ni because of how you sum up the details into an impression that's backed by Feeling judgement.

Thanks again for your input on this thread. I will not be back on here for some time. In fact, I'm going to post a final blog post here and then I'm off for the summer. [I know. It's technically spring, but my busy season starts in April and runs through October. During those months free time is precious to me and I like to spend it training and writing. I do most of my novels, painting and poetry in the summer months. Plus, I think I want to learn a new language this summer.] I hope that at night, I will find a great deal of reading material on my new-found interest, cognitive functions. Who knows how this might effect my writing? It will certainly be interesting to see what kinds of personalities my characters will come up with I love to build worlds, languages and even number systems. I love to build societies and delve into the genetic and psychological traits of those societies. It might be fun to build a society where ESFP traits are highly valued or where INTJ traits are highly valued [although, I think in sci-fi that has been done a lot.]

Alright.

 

[Coriolis]

It takes a lot of work for me to realize Te assertions aren’t actually the end product they appear to be- they’re starting points. Even though I logically know this, it’s still hard for me….and I’m a total J, so I can only imagine how hard it is for a Pe’er to grasp the extent to which Je assertions aren’t as “I’M RIGHT AND THIS IS A FACT” as they appear to be. But they aren't.

I make assertions like this all the time. In my mind, it means "this is my best assessment of the situation right now". Show me new information, or explain how I have put 2 and 2 together to get 53 and I will adjust my assessment. The important thing is that I have to have an assessment, or an opinion, or a draft/tentative decision. It is almost impossible for me to think of things in terms that are truly open-ended. I just understand that those judgments are subject to change if new information appears. I suppose this could be considered a starting point in the manner of a paper draft: sketched out, and open for critique and editing.

Thanks so much for responding and taking the time to do a phenomenal job of it, too. I have considered the possibility that you are right about my friend. She could possibly be an INTP and has maybe been mistyped. If so, then that would indicate that the main function behind her communication style is not Fi. May I add that from personal observation, it appears that INFP and INTP have similar [but not identical] communication styles, so that would indicate that the responsible function is likely not Fi or Ti but those two are mere filters? Then it could be as someone else on this thread said, that the “getting to the point quickly is an Ni thing” and the “providing scattered info” is an Ne thing. [Neither is better or worse than the other; they are just different.

INTP and INFP share the preference of using Ne as their primary externally directed function, which accounts for their common tendency to "provide scattered info". Ti/Fi does act as a filtering function, as you surmise.

Hmmm....I’m beginning to doubt some of the internet tests. Some of them seem very biased toward one type or the other. So, I have gotten a copy of Gifts Differing and am reading it. I have been reading a lot of stuff online, too, but as with anything, the experts don’t always agree and as you say, there is a lot of misinformation floating around and someone like me, who is new at this stuff, has to filter through all of it. Still, I will keep digging when I get the time. I am certain of my Ni. I have never had a doubt about it, but the other functions? I'm still working on those.

Gifts Differing is an excellent reference. It is the first book on MBTI I usually recommend to people, and though shorter than many, provides essential information about the origins and intent of the system.

When I start thinking about this mindset I just want to curl up into the fetal position. I get that it's just how some people work and it seems fine for them, but applying it personally is painful. I shut the world of sensation *out* as a kid and used my mindset to have a measure of control over it - that's part of why I developed with Ni dominance.

Why did you do the highlighted?

 

[Flatlander]

Why did you do the highlighted?

I felt helpless against the world and so I sought control over it. Sensation in particular made me feel helpless - the point that the world is made up of things whose existence is outside of my mental control - so the way in which I sought control was by injecting my own intention/meaning/understanding into it, I grasped with Ni to force Se into submission to my mind.

 

[OrangeAppled]

So if you need to have an idea of what the point is in order to be able to give someone the attentiveness they deserve, what is a good way to ask for what you need without causing your friend offense or pain?

The active listening techniques I mentioned. It helps you to grasp what they're saying & can guide them to stay on track.

 

[RoadPaveMent]

And also as above, I am not interested in someone else chewing my food for me, so I rather more raw, unprocessed sustenance (in the form of details) than less.

And when Je types make points, I admit I tend to ignore them. I consider the info & decide for myself what it means.

Can someone give me an example(s)? I'm getting kind of lost... >____<

 

[garbage]

Interesting that this thread has come up again. I've reexamined my preferred approach to this whole shebang, and I keep coming back to this:

I'm also a fan of

"Here's my point: [the point]

Here's why I think that: [long flippin' explanatory text here]"

Best of both worlds for me.

It tends to work with people of many "types," as those who want me to "get to the point" (and who trust my assessments) get it right away; those who want to see where I'm heading know; those who want to derive their own points will get a chance to do so; and those who want to cut me off as soon as they "get it" can.

This general approach is "backwards." Rather than "getting to the point," we start with the point.

It's also how I prefer people to explain stuff to me.

Can someone give me an example(s)? I'm getting kind of lost... >____<

Perhaps "Going to this concert won't be worth it. [end]"

versus

"It takes about ten hours to drive to Houston, where this concert is held; and this band isn't exactly either of our favorites. My car also just got out of the shop and I'm a bit wary to unleash it on the road. Also, have you asked off of work for that day? Do you know whether you can?
[...]
Also, Houston's hotels aren't within walking distance of the venue."

 

[OrangeAppled]

Can someone give me an example(s)? I'm getting kind of lost... >____<

I'm not good with concrete examples. It's basically someone telling you what weight to give information. I will pick it up & decide how heavy it is to me. I may also derive my own theme because I put it in the larger context, not just the frame they've given it with their points.

This general approach is "backwards." Rather than "getting to the point," we start with the point.

It's also how I prefer people to explain stuff to me.

I don't like when people ramble in a story, especially in chronological order, and you have no frame to put it in, so it's just like info being spewed. I want a general outline or theme & then filling in the blanks afterwards. What is their reason for communicating the info?

I generally do this also & prefer such style if there is a main point, so I don't really see what people are talking about concerning INFPs. The only difference is sometimes there is not a singular point. It's an exploration. It's like joyriding vs driving straight to the store or taking a road trip & stopping spontaneously wherever you want along the way vs flying to a specific locale for vacation.

I also think INFPs might speak in themes more, like a novel as opposed to an essay or article, and that's probably the difference.

 

[RoadPaveMent]

So, would a Ji/Pe person potentially feel like a Je/Pi person is pushing their opinions on them, while a Je/Pi person would potentially feel like a Ji/Pe person is not making it clear what they want?