[ENFJ] Cold ENFJ (now with illustrations)

[skylights]

So I have a situation with my close ENFJ friend that is confusing me, and I would appreciate any opinions on what might be going on.

I met my friend, probably an ENFJ 3w4 so/sp, at the beginning of college, when we lived near one another, and bonded over whining about campus life. We were best friends throughout college after that, and now it's been a few years, but we still keep in fairly close contact. She lives in another part of the state. She tends to be somewhat distant unless pressured, but we've been close for long enough that she tends to share her deeper feelings with me, including her recent new dating situation (an ex-boyfriend is "courting" her, but she hasn't agreed to a relationship with him yet).

Recently, we attended a mutual event. She gave me a present upon meeting up with me, then we travelled together, during which told me about her school and love life. My longterm boyfriend came and met us later, which had been planned from the beginning - he loves the place we were going, and my friend and boyfriend had both expressed the desire for them to meet. I offered to include the guy she's seeing, too, but she declined to invite him. We all stayed at the same place, my boyfriend in I in one room and my friend in another. I paid for her expenses the first night, since I was the hostess, and I tried my hardest throughout the trip to not make her feel like a 3rd wheel, nor to make my boyfriend feel excluded in a place where he hardly knew anyone. We had another close friend hanging out with us 90% of the time, so I didn't feel like my ENFJ friend was in an awkward position. However, she was very aloof with my boyfriend. He was his usual polite but open, friendly self, asking her amiable, neutral questions which she would answer with barely a handful of words. I know that she can turn on the social charm, so I was disappointed, but thought maybe she was genuinely shy at first. However, as the trip continued, she continued acting aloof with him, and was a bit passive-aggressive with me.

Honestly, I'm very discouraged and even somewhat embarrassed that she barely made any effort to engage with my boyfriend, and during the trip, I was frustrated by her apparent lack of desire to really engage in the activities that were the goal of us going. At least, she was odd about it - she was very enthusiastic about a handful of core things, but really didn't seem to want to interact with anyone outside a very few chosen people. She's usually a bit like that, but not to quite that extent. It ended up preventing us from catching up with as many people as I would have liked to, and it made it a struggle to foster organic interaction. She also played some bizarre game at one point of saying she didn't care where we went, but then shooting down ideas for where to go, and complaining when I made a choice (which turned out to be good). Mostly she kept saying she didn't care and didn't want a say. I was very torn between trying to cater to her, since we have always been close and we planned the trip together, and just doing my own thing, because she was being distant and uncooperative. Unfortunately there was little time in our schedule to stop and try to break it down emotionally with her.

Regardless, I did my best to keep everything positive and keep everyone together. I kept thinking, she's just on the brink of being welcoming, just a little push more. It's been about two weeks since then, and she's barely messaged me at all, a huge drop in amount of contact since prior to the college event. I've messaged her a few times, and she's given normal replies, but without any further conversational engagement. She hasn't initiated with me at all. I messaged her tonight pointing out that she was aloof at the event and quiet for the last couple weeks, and that I was wondering if anything was upsetting her. She replied no - she was just busy.

I'm not really sure what to do at this point. I'm not really interested in blowing it up, but I'm upset that she acted that way towards my boyfriend, who was nothing but friendly and generous to her (he even paid for her at one point), and I'm upset that she acted that way towards me when I was with him. I thought mentioning her distance might encourage her to reveal some unspoken feelings, but she said there were none. I don't know which is worse - her genuinely not thinking there was a problem with her behavior, or lying to me about why she behaved as she did. She has historically been somewhat cold (which fascinated me at the beginning and was part of why I became interested in becoming friends with her), but that guard is generally lowered with me. My mom suggested that perhaps she's jealous of my boyfriend and I, which I suppose is a possibility, but even then, she could share those feelings, and it still doesn't really excuse her from treating him like a ficus.

Does anyone have any advice in terms of what may have happened, or what I'm missing here, or how to proceed?

 

[Rasofy]

My mom suggested that perhaps she's jealous of my boyfriend and I, which I suppose is a possibility,

Could be. Seems she started behaving weird right after your boyfriend entered the picture. Unhealthy E3s need people primarily to make them feel better about themselves, and you weren't fulfilling this need.

but even then, she could share those feelings,

E3s would rather die than confessing envy, specially a ''cold'' E3.

and it still doesn't really excuse her from treating him like a ficus.

Indeed.


ps: awsm illustrations

 

[skylights]

ps: awsm illustrations

Thank you Rasofy

Could be. Seems she started behaving weird right after your boyfriend entered the picture.

Exactly. Things were normal and great up until this point. I didn't even fully realize it until I thought about it later. Like I said, I was wondering if she was just hesitant - she does tend to hang back and observe - and I kept thinking that she would eventually gain enough information, and fully re-engage with us.

E3s would rather die than confessing envy, specially a ''cold'' E3.

You're right. It's strange to me, though, because she has a boyfriend waiting for her if she would only take him up on it. And they were together for a year and a half in the past, so they would basically be on par with my boyfriend and I in terms of length of dating. I guess it's possible that she sees the emotional comfort and intimacy shared between my boyfriend and I, and resents that we share that, since it's something that neither he nor I particularly struggle with, while I suspect she always has, and I know there are issues surrounding emotional sharing in her family (that being one of the root causes of her own parents' divorce, as well as several other divorces in her family). Or maybe it's simpler than that, and she just is envious of us being together and happy. The thing I don't understand, though, is why would that be a reason to distance yourself? I've always enjoyed interacting with happy couples, and I've been predominantly single for 22 years - because their positive energy seems to spill outwards, free for the taking.

It's a good point about the possible jealousy, because she and I have historically been competitive in a friendly way. She's generally been on "top", though - and I suppose she could be feeling more insecure seeing me in more of a stable position in a happy relationship, being a leader at work, and having a generally happy family. Still, it's not like everything is amazing with me. I'm still struggling with my career options, while she's blazing her path, and I've always been on the less affluent side of our friendship - my family, my boyfriend, and myself all veer towards humanitarian jobs, so we're not destined to be rolling in it.

Unhealthy E3s need people primarily to make them feel better about themselves, and you weren't fulfilling this need.

I just hope it won't come to her needing me to be inferior for her to feel happy. I would like to see us both bloom in our different directions. She seemed to show some degree of this, too, during school, when she was clearly proud of me for certain accomplishments of mine. I suppose she wants a happy relationship, too, though, and I've "beaten" her to it.

 

[Fidelia]

From the sounds of things, you have done everything to make the time go smoothly that you could for everyone involved, as well as to address the problem proactively. Her behaviour is odd. I think there is probably something in back of it, but she is probably not even ready to talk to herself about it, let alone you.

All I can say is that I have had several occasions (although usually with guys who were my friends or whom I was dating) where two people I'm close to met and suddenly the easy-going, host with the most, pleasant person whom I knew turned aloof, rude, drew negative attention to themselves and treated the other person I care about quite inexplicably, despite the other person being nothing but nice to them. Often, it seemed that they were okay as long as we were meeting in their natural environment, but as soon as they were removed from where they felt most comfortable, they felt unsure and it came out as rudeness to force me to pick them and give them the emotional support they needed. I have also observed this with several friends when they brought boyfriends to meet our family/husband spending time with the family.

The first time this happened in my life, I was completely baffled by the behaviour and had no explanation for it, as I had been long time friends with the person and they had come up to visit me at their suggestion in my home and then proceeded to treat my family and all around them terribly. It got talked out a bit (was their own issues) and the visit took a turn for the better after it was all laid out on the table. However, after seeing this a couple more times in milder forms, I've found that the common thread is insecurity and feelings of somehow competing for my affections. It's like if someone else is around whom I also care for and value, then the person needs to force a situation where they think I will have to choose one or the other in some way.

I don't think I would have come to realize this had my sister not married a man who was so extreme in this regard that she eventually quit seeing all of her friends and family for 20 years. Now, I have very little patience for the behaviour. Although I care for the people involved, I cannot allow them to have that kind of negative power in my life, not just for my sake, but for their sake too.

I wonder if this isn't specifically about boyfriend envy, but rather a more specific kind of jealousy. If you have managed to get into your friend's inner emotional world, it's possible that she's worried that the bond that you have with your boyfriend will eventually mean that you will become serious enough that she will no longer be able to have the same kind of role in your life. She probably realizes that sounds stupid when you say it aloud, but it still is a scary thought to her, especially if her family aren't open communicators whom she can feel close with and you have been in her life for a long time. I don't know if this is it, but I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility.

I've learned over time that often you are just missing a piece of information when other people's behaviour doesn't make sense, and with it, everything falls into place. I've also learned that it is rarely really about you or the situation at hand, but rather is the other person's way of dealing with awakened fears rooted in an entirely different situation that had nothing to do at you. Sometimes you can allay those fears, sometimes you can't. Sometimes they are just bad coping mechanisms in an attempt to get needs met and the person needs to learn new ways of making their needs apparent. Some people are willing to go through the steps it takes to do that, and for some it is too difficult or scary to face, so they won't.

 

[Fidelia]

The other thought I had just now about why she might distance herself just because she could be jealous of seeing you happy - when you feel insecure, everything is a competition. It's not enough to appreciate good where you see it. Your level of happiness and what you have is ranked and compared with others all the time. I'm not sure if this is the issue with her or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see if it fits.

 

[Santosha]

I'm just throwing this out there, you'd know your friend well enough to know if this is in her charactor... but could she have been nervous about being "too-affectoinate" or engaging with your boyfriend, thus upsetting you? Have you guys ever had any previous hurt feelings or run-ins over guys? Again, this is probably a long shot.. if she is an E3 I would imagine that seeing first hand an intense emotional connection between the two of you, if she is struggling in this area herself, could have been difficult. She may have not known what role to play. Theres also the possibility that she is honest about nothing being up, and she could have just been distracted with her own issues but if feels like a responce from the two of you from your perspective. Regardless, it does seem like you've done everything you can. As an E6 I think we can be hyper-vigilant (not saying you are in this case, my own experience) about knowing everything or controlling what goes on in our support networks, when we'd be better off to just let things go sometimes.. trust in the universe and quit believing that we must proactively respond and control everything to maintain our support. Whether E3 does have some issue about it that she doesn't want to discuss, or she really is distracted, or even if she has just decided that she doesn't want to be close any longer, it is now on her shoulders because you've done what you can. It hurts, but sometimes we just have to let things go.

 

[girlinthePNW]

As an ENFJ, I can say it may be a bit of possessiveness of you.

 

[skylights]

From the sounds of things, you have done everything to make the time go smoothly that you could for everyone involved, as well as to address the problem proactively. Her behaviour is odd. I think there is probably something in back of it, but she is probably not even ready to talk to herself about it, let alone you.

All I can say is that I have had several occasions (although usually with guys who were my friends or whom I was dating) where two people I'm close to met and suddenly the easy-going, host with the most, pleasant person whom I knew turned aloof, rude, drew negative attention to themselves and treated the other person I care about quite inexplicably, despite the other person being nothing but nice to them. Often, it seemed that they were okay as long as we were meeting in their natural environment, but as soon as they were removed from where they felt most comfortable, they felt unsure and it came out as rudeness to force me to pick them and give them the emotional support they needed. I have also observed this with several friends when they brought boyfriends to meet our family/husband spending time with the family.

The first time this happened in my life, I was completely baffled by the behaviour and had no explanation for it, as I had been long time friends with the person and they had come up to visit me at their suggestion in my home and then proceeded to treat my family and all around them terribly. It got talked out a bit (was their own issues) and the visit took a turn for the better after it was all laid out on the table. However, after seeing this a couple more times in milder forms, I've found that the common thread is insecurity and feelings of somehow competing for my affections. It's like if someone else is around whom I also care for and value, then the person needs to force a situation where they think I will have to choose one or the other in some way.

I don't think I would have come to realize this had my sister not married a man who was so extreme in this regard that she eventually quit seeing all of her friends and family for 20 years. Now, I have very little patience for the behaviour. Although I care for the people involved, I cannot allow them to have that kind of negative power in my life, not just for my sake, but for their sake too.

I wonder if this isn't specifically about boyfriend envy, but rather a more specific kind of jealousy. If you have managed to get into your friend's inner emotional world, it's possible that she's worried that the bond that you have with your boyfriend will eventually mean that you will become serious enough that she will no longer be able to have the same kind of role in your life. She probably realizes that sounds stupid when you say it aloud, but it still is a scary thought to her, especially if her family aren't open communicators whom she can feel close with and you have been in her life for a long time. I don't know if this is it, but I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility.

I've learned over time that often you are just missing a piece of information when other people's behaviour doesn't make sense, and with it, everything falls into place. I've also learned that it is rarely really about you or the situation at hand, but rather is the other person's way of dealing with awakened fears rooted in an entirely different situation that had nothing to do at you. Sometimes you can allay those fears, sometimes you can't. Sometimes they are just bad coping mechanisms in an attempt to get needs met and the person needs to learn new ways of making their needs apparent. Some people are willing to go through the steps it takes to do that, and for some it is too difficult or scary to face, so they won't.

Thank you so much for this explanation, fidelia. It's both enlightening and comforting that this isn't an isolated phenomenon. I'm sorry about the circumstances with your sister, though, that sounds like a painful situation. What you described in your final paragraph is a pattern that often occurs with her - one piece of information and the puzzle suddenly snaps together.

What you described about the specific jealousy seems to fit the situation well. She is a very emotionally distant person, but I got closer than almost anyone else. When college ended, I was pretty torn up about us separating (she was moving far from me), but she displayed little concern towards me, to the point of not really saying goodbye until I tracked her down. I was somewhat hurt by this because she had some gushy goodbyes with others, though I know to some extent that was more show than genuine, and she probably was clamping down on those real emotions pretty hard. She and I kept in touch fairly well, but of course our relationship became more distanced. By the time my now-boyfriend began flirting with me - about a year later - I was very ready to have another emotionally-close relationship again (I have had these sorts of intense pair-bond relationships all my life, as has he), and he and I were lucky to click quickly. What you suggested about my bond with him has already come to pass - she is no longer one of my top priorities (though I did try to make her one during the trip).

I have conflicted feelings about this - on one hand, we have been friends for a long time, and it's not her fault that I chose to prioritize her preferences for a long period of time. I still really appreciate her intelligence and perspective. On the other hand, becoming more distant has enabled me to see how one-sided the friendship could be at times - perhaps she was putting her all into it, but it was still somewhat destructive for me to almost always have to meet her where she was. It may even be this newfound self-angency that she's feeling more than anything to do with my boyfriend - I'm more independent, more decisive, more willing to swim upstream - and less willing to hurt myself to please her. I can only imagine that would be slightly jarring for her, when for 5 years she was met with little resistance from me. Honestly, at this point, I am trying to figure out how to still be a good friend and confidante, but how to be that without being a pushover and while retaining my own preferences and identity.

The other thought I had just now about why she might distance herself just because she could be jealous of seeing you happy - when you feel insecure, everything is a competition. It's not enough to appreciate good where you see it. Your level of happiness and what you have is ranked and compared with others all the time. I'm not sure if this is the issue with her or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see if it fits.

Yes, our friendship was often somewhat of a friendly competition, and while she was usually "on top" socially, this puts me a ways ahead of her in the "love life" category. I've gained a lot more self-confidence over the past two years between my job and my relationship, and feel less insecure than I used to, whereas I think she is at a more vulnerable point emotionally, even though there's not much "objectively" better about my situation right now. Still, I'm surprised that she didn't display this earlier, like when I talked her ear off about him. I don't know. Maybe she was expecting there to be some major flaw with him, but there really aren't any.

I'm just throwing this out there, you'd know your friend well enough to know if this is in her charactor... but could she have been nervous about being "too-affectoinate" or engaging with your boyfriend, thus upsetting you? Have you guys ever had any previous hurt feelings or run-ins over guys? Again, this is probably a long shot.. if she is an E3 I would imagine that seeing first hand an intense emotional connection between the two of you, if she is struggling in this area herself, could have been difficult. She may have not known what role to play. Theres also the possibility that she is honest about nothing being up, and she could have just been distracted with her own issues but if feels like a responce from the two of you from your perspective. Regardless, it does seem like you've done everything you can. As an E6 I think we can be hyper-vigilant (not saying you are in this case, my own experience) about knowing everything or controlling what goes on in our support networks, when we'd be better off to just let things go sometimes.. trust in the universe and quit believing that we must proactively respond and control everything to maintain our support. Whether E3 does have some issue about it that she doesn't want to discuss, or she really is distracted, or even if she has just decided that she doesn't want to be close any longer, it is now on her shoulders because you've done what you can. It hurts, but sometimes we just have to let things go.

Yeah, I totally agree, I'm hyper vigilant and there have certainly been times where I called something that was essentially negligible. That's part of why I brought this to the forum. I suppose it's possible that she was afraid of crossing boundary lines, but we haven't really had any history of that, and she's not my boyfriend's type at all. I do think you're right about the difficulty of watching an emotionally close relationship, though, for sure. I'm actually not entirely put off by the idea of not being so close anymore, because of the way she treated me in the past and treats me in general. I sort of feel like I'm coming out of an abusive relationship where I was an enabler. So on one hand I feel like this was partially my fault, and I know she endured some challenging life experiences; on the other, she's proud and removed, and can treat others very poorly, even longtime friends. Thanks for the input :]

As an ENFJ, I can say it may be a bit of possessiveness of you.

Interesting. She is rather controlling, so I can imagine that it would be displeasing to suddenly discover how out of the grasp of her control that I am. Thank you!

I'm going to use all this info and construct a brief note to her.

 

[Fidelia]

My ENFJ mum can be much more micromanagey and directive when she is under emotional stress. It sounds to me like your friend probably has had plenty of that in her life.

I don't know about ENFJs generally, but I have found with my mum (who I think is an example of a pretty healthy ENFJ), she is so focussed on meeting other people's needs that she sometimes isn't aware of her own, or is very private about sharing them. She finds it very difficult to surrender control (I think this is an E_ _ J thing), even when someone wants to do something nice for her.

On the other hand, the lack of trust that one's needs will be provided for (which comes along with insecurity) can often make a person rather controlling as well. You will need time to re-establish the boundaries of your relationship and you will probably encounter some resistance to change. In the long run though, it is kinder to her, as it allows you to be equals and have a sustainable friendship without resentment.

As you have found, balance in your life is essential to maintaining healthy relationships and to maintaining objectivity. As you become more objective, you may even feel really bamboozled at how you could have allowed things to get so skewed, even if at the time, it didn't seem like such a big deal. I think it's really easy at that stage to beat up on yourself for not seeing things as they really were, but it is something that happens so gradually, that it is sometimes hard at the time to decide whether you are just making a big deal out of something, or if it is a legitimate feeling.

When people feel insecure, they will feel threatened by anyone or anything that could be important to you and compete for your affections (eg your boyfriend, your new life elsewhere). The person will feel the need to try to get you to shrink your world so they can maintain a more important role in it and it is easy for that to happen gradually, until their wishes taking on unreasonable weight and significance for you. Then you over invest and will do whatever it takes to make things work, without considering the imbalance. I've also found in these cases that often the people who wish to exert the most control in the friendship also are the ones shouldering the least responsibility. They invest less or are less willing to compromise.

It would be simple if there weren't also very attractive qualities that obscure or offset the negative behaviours. No one is all bad, and sometimes it takes some time even to notice whether an incident is part of a pattern of behaviour, or if it is just an isolated event. Often the person has conflicting behaviours that can keep you guessing which is the real them and which keep you invested in the relationship. I don't think those behaviours are consciously thought out, but rather are an instinctive response to very strong fears. However, the behaviours do do damage.

For me, I have been most susceptible to allowing someone undue influence in my life when I have some emotional need that the other person steps in and seems to meet. If I am far away from a support system of my usual people, or feel isolated, etc, I am more likely to be willing to over-accommodate someone who occupies an important role in my life and also to have insufficient other people and interests to help maintain a better perspective.

Widening your scope of people and pursuits has a way of putting things back into perspective and allowing you to better decide what kind of role you want the person to have in your life.

Sounds to me like this is where you are at now.

 

[garbage]

An ENFJ 3w4 so/sp? Those people are easy.

To the extent that she's mature and actually close to you, she ought to be able to tell you what feelings she had that drove her actions. She's got a wall up, and that issue's much more on her than it is on you.

If you're gonna pursue this one further, I'd let the whole "boyfriend" incident go (that is, not expressly call her out on that issue alone) and instead focus on the underlying motivations.

 

[Southern Kross]

I once did a tour of my country with an American friend. I hadn't seen her in a while and was really looking forward to it. I even worked out a whole plan of where to go and what to do (and OKed it all with her) so we could fit in as much as possible. The first week was so great and we were really bonding. Then we gave a Canadian guy that we met in the hostel a ride, which then ended up him spending the next 2 weeks travelling with us. He was a cool guy and ordinarily I would have rather liked him, but the two of them ended up as thick as thieves and I was left out. She is quite a impressionable person and was completely taken with his zen-ness, and worldly knowledge and experience - and it bothered me how much she worshipped everything he said (and a few of his ideas I thought were ridiculous). He also kept questioning the plans I'd made and undermining my knowledge of places/things in joking ways (not a good thing to do to someone with a 5 wing ). I found myself becoming rather stubborn, irritable, pedantic and disagreeable towards them - basically textbook e4 disintegration to e1

Now, I'm TOTALLY NOT the jealous type. I mean, I never get jealous. But it felt like he was pushing in on and disrupting the time I had been looking forward to spending alone with my friend. I had built up the whole thing in my mind, so my disappointment was all the more. And I knew I was being grumpy and ridiculous but I couldn't stop myself. I'm actually kinda embarrassed about some of it but I never said anything to my friend about it.

I know this isn't exactly the same circumstances, nor did I react in the same way as your friend, but perhaps it is a similar case. Maybe she just wanted to spend time with you and felt like your boyfriend was in the way, and then got in a bit of a grump about it. If that's the case then it isn't a big deal. She's probably over it and feels a bit stupid about it.

 

[skylights]

My ENFJ mum can be much more micromanagey and directive when she is under emotional stress. It sounds to me like your friend probably has had plenty of that in her life.

I don't know about ENFJs generally, but I have found with my mum (who I think is an example of a pretty healthy ENFJ), she is so focussed on meeting other people's needs that she sometimes isn't aware of her own, or is very private about sharing them. She finds it very difficult to surrender control (I think this is an E_ _ J thing), even when someone wants to do something nice for her.

On the other hand, the lack of trust that one's needs will be provided for (which comes along with insecurity) can often make a person rather controlling as well. You will need time to re-establish the boundaries of your relationship and you will probably encounter some resistance to change. In the long run though, it is kinder to her, as it allows you to be equals and have a sustainable friendship without resentment.

As you have found, balance in your life is essential to maintaining healthy relationships and to maintaining objectivity. As you become more objective, you may even feel really bamboozled at how you could have allowed things to get so skewed, even if at the time, it didn't seem like such a big deal. I think it's really easy at that stage to beat up on yourself for not seeing things as they really were, but it is something that happens so gradually, that it is sometimes hard at the time to decide whether you are just making a big deal out of something, or if it is a legitimate feeling.

When people feel insecure, they will feel threatened by anyone or anything that could be important to you and compete for your affections (eg your boyfriend, your new life elsewhere). The person will feel the need to try to get you to shrink your world so they can maintain a more important role in it and it is easy for that to happen gradually, until their wishes taking on unreasonable weight and significance for you. Then you over invest and will do whatever it takes to make things work, without considering the imbalance. I've also found in these cases that often the people who wish to exert the most control in the friendship also are the ones shouldering the least responsibility. They invest less or are less willing to compromise.

It would be simple if there weren't also very attractive qualities that obscure or offset the negative behaviours. No one is all bad, and sometimes it takes some time even to notice whether an incident is part of a pattern of behaviour, or if it is just an isolated event. Often the person has conflicting behaviours that can keep you guessing which is the real them and which keep you invested in the relationship. I don't think those behaviours are consciously thought out, but rather are an instinctive response to very strong fears. However, the behaviours do do damage.

For me, I have been most susceptible to allowing someone undue influence in my life when I have some emotional need that the other person steps in and seems to meet. If I am far away from a support system of my usual people, or feel isolated, etc, I am more likely to be willing to over-accommodate someone who occupies an important role in my life and also to have insufficient other people and interests to help maintain a better perspective.

Widening your scope of people and pursuits has a way of putting things back into perspective and allowing you to better decide what kind of role you want the person to have in your life.

Sounds to me like this is where you are at now.

Yes, exactly exactly exactly! The bolded rings so true. When we became friends, I was still drifting around at college. New, hadn't really found my place. She kind of gave me a place, a rock to latch onto, because she is at the exact opposite of the spectrum - instead of drifting, she locks down in one place and has trouble moving. I suspect some of her locking down and need for control is due to her childhood situation - her parents I suspect are ESFP 7w8 sp/so and INTJ 8w9 sp/sx, and her mother I suspect never really offered a ton of emotional support (she is very cheery and sweet, but also competitive and flighty), while her father is very quiet, somewhat distant, and extremely hot-and-cold. They divorced when she was a teenager and remain very unfriendly. In that sense, I feel bad for her, and I feel bad that I didn't have the level of self-awareness to resist being so mutable.

Even in our later years, I started "drawing out" away from her, as my friend circles were expanding and deepening, and I was discovering which friendships were more organic and lasting, versus which ones were more social and happenstance. I curiously also happen to find myself gravitating towards people who were also attached, like myself - for example, one of the girls from my school who has recently married and is settling down - I feel like we were almost more on the same wavelength than my ENFJ friend and I. It has become easy to interact with couples. Even then, I hit it off best of all with my recently-single friend who always has seemed kindred to me, though we hadn't talked in a long time. She was so excited to meet my boyfriend and they even talked one-on-one for a while. She herself had been in what she had thought what would turn out to be a forever-relationship, and unfortunately he turned out to be seeking a good-time girlfriend more than than a devoted wife and mother to his child.

I think part of the problem is that it is genuinely hard to be in a serious relationship and also be in a close, young-style girl friendship. My friendships with friends who are in or have been in serious relationships seem to have matured and altered in a way that allows for there to be another, more important person in our lives, and we're both fine with that. It's enjoyable to be with them because we can be comfortable with each other but also give room and respect for that other person, or the possibility of another person like that - even bond over the shared feelings of having or having had a person like that. I don't think my ENFJ friend has necessarily shifted to a place of actively wanting a forever-person like that in her life, though she's voiced the desire from time to time. Or maybe she's not ready yet to emotionally let go if she doesn't have other close emotional supports in her life.


Up until this incident, I assumed that since my ENFJ friend was so naturally distant and removed, it would even be pleasing to her for me to be in a close relationship with someone else, because I know that sometimes my emotional intimacy and desire for closeness could be off-putting to her. I thought she would appreciate having her own room, for example, because she really likes a lot of personal space. I guess now I realize she would probably have preferred both of us to have individual rooms, not for me to share one and her to be alone in being alone - but unfortunately I would be unhappy in that sort of scenario, as I prefer to have a close person physically near. I feel like I mentioned at some point that I thought I would be able to have my cake and eat it, too - as in, my closely-attaching self plus my boyfriend being able to be close and intimate, and my self-providing, intimacy-avoiding friend being able to take care of herself and not have to deal with me trying to press her out of her comfort zone. I guess it's not that easy.

The first phrase of yours I bolded is very interesting, too. It does seem like that, often, though I wonder how much she does go outside her comfort zone for me. I've always assumed I was the one giving more, but over time as she opened up, I think she began to give a fair amount, too. I know I connected to her much more swiftly than she connected to me, and much more intensely, but on an individual level, I wonder if the amount of effort we have been exerting is really that different. To be honest, based on both her childhood and her personality, I think she's much less better conditioned and wired to be in a close relationship than I am. She takes a long, long time to open up, and she doesn't automatically account for the other person in her decisions (while I tend to be too open and have a hard time making decisions without input from those important to me).

Like you said, I think this will be a good experience for her. I'm thinking that the best thing to do will be to remain there, and not drop off the face of the planet because of this person in my life. I still like her, and I still want to be good friends. I'm mostly just surprised by the way she acted, disappointed that it prevented me from engaging with others, and upset that it hurt my boyfriend. It's not anything against her person, just that it had an overall negative impact on my life, and I want to help resolve it now and prevent it in the future.

An ENFJ 3w4 so/sp? Those people are easy.

!

To the extent that she's mature and actually close to you, she ought to be able to tell you what feelings she had that drove her actions. She's got a wall up, and that issue's much more on her than it is on you.

If you're gonna pursue this one further, I'd let the whole "boyfriend" incident go (that is, not expressly call her out on that issue alone) and instead focus on the underlying motivations.

Thanks, bologna. I think so too, and I hope that she will be willing to explain what's going on. I recently sent her a message asking if anything was going on, since she's seemed distant ever since that time, I was confused by her behavior, and that she seemed cold around my boyfriend and I didn't understand because I thought she had wanted to meet him. I apologized if I'd been overly attentive to him, or if he upset her. Then I asked to know what was going on. I tried to make it neutral, compassionate but truthful. I don't hold it against her, I was just disappointed and want to understand. I also told her a little about a funny thing or two going on in my life, and left a cliffhanger to goad her into responding, lol. She hasn't written back yet, but it's only been a day.

The thing I might be struggling with most and would really appreciate your input as a 3w4 so/sp ENFJ is that I know for certain that my boyfriend was really put out by her behavior, and I can't blame him for feeling like that, but I have no idea how to address that with her, or even if I should. He already knew she wasn't the most open or emotionally gushy person, since we've talked about her before, but in no way was he prepared to be treated as he was - just as if he was a non-entity, or didn't matter. It was less overtly negative and more just totally lacking... probably most offensive in its non-recognition of him as a worthwhile being. She did have one moment where she was kind of funny and scooted up next to him, making him sandwiched between the two of us - I think she was trying to open up - but even then she didn't really engage in conversation with him, and by the end of the trip, she declined to share something funny with him she'd been promising she would. He's clearly still of negative viewpoint towards her, and like I said, I can't blame him. Her behavior towards me is basically negligible in my book because we've been friends for so long, but her behavior towards him as a stranger was totally uncalled for, and I have no idea what to do about that.

I once did a tour of my country with an American friend. I hadn't seen her in a while and was really looking forward to it. I even worked out a whole plan of where to go and what to do (and OKed it all with her) so we could fit in as much as possible. The first week was so great and we were really bonding. Then we gave a Canadian guy that we met in the hostel a ride, which then ended up him spending the next 2 weeks travelling with us. He was a cool guy and ordinarily I would have rather liked him, but the two of them ended up as thick as thieves and I was left out. She is quite a impressionable person and was completely taken with his zen-ness, and worldly knowledge and experience - and it bothered me how much she worshipped everything he said (and a few of his ideas I thought were ridiculous). He also kept questioning the plans I'd made and undermining my knowledge of places/things in joking ways (not a good thing to do to someone with a 5 wing ). I found myself becoming rather stubborn, irritable, pedantic and disagreeable towards them - basically textbook e4 disintegration to e1

Now, I'm TOTALLY NOT the jealous type. I mean, I never get jealous. But it felt like he was pushing in on and disrupting the time I had been looking forward to spending alone with my friend. I had built up the whole thing in my mind, so my disappointment was all the more. And I knew I was being grumpy and ridiculous but I couldn't stop myself. I'm actually kinda embarrassed about some of it but I never said anything to my friend about it.

I know this isn't exactly the same circumstances, nor did I react in the same way as your friend, but perhaps it is a similar case. Maybe she just wanted to spend time with you and felt like your boyfriend was in the way, and then got in a bit of a grump about it. If that's the case then it isn't a big deal. She's probably over it and feels a bit stupid about it.

Yeah, I feel like you're probably right, especially in terms of the bolded. I've rarely interacted with her and someone "more important" before, just being with her and my mom for very brief periods of time, so this would be the first time she's really been in an extended situation with me where someone else's influence trumped her own, and I imagine he probably had even more of an impact on me than I realized. It's true that we really couldn't talk about the close emotional issues with him around, but I actually had thought this would be an ideal situation for them to get to know each other because we were going to be with groups most of the time anyway. Her actions did suggest that she was trying to get away from the group, and maybe she was struggling because she had thought this would be more like one of our traditional trips where her and I hang out and engage more with each other than anything else. Thanks for the story and explanation, it's good food for thought

 

[skylights]

As an update, 3 days post-message and zero response from ENFJ thus far.

I am frustrated. I very much value the ENFJ's intelligence and insight, but dealing with this passive-aggressive behavior is so, so stressful to me. I have communicated this to her before, but there has been little change. I still would like to be good friends, but I don't feel like I can depend on her, which is what I really would hope of from my closest friends. I feel like I need close friendships of more steady exchange and more positivity.

Ah, well. Live and learn. Time to forge some new connections, strengthen some old ones, and let some bygones pass away.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

As an update, 3 days post-message and zero response from ENFJ thus far.

I am frustrated. I very much value the ENFJ's intelligence and insight, but dealing with this passive-aggressive behavior is so, so stressful to me. I have communicated this to her before, but there has been little change. I still would like to be good friends, but I don't feel like I can depend on her, which is what I really would hope of from my closest friends. I feel like I need close friendships of more steady exchange and more positivity.

Ah, well. Live and learn. Time to forge some new connections, strengthen some old ones, and let some bygones pass away.

Sometimes, I think it's possible for E/INFJ to ignore other contacts simply because they are going through a stage of depression or facing challenges in reality. I know it may sounds unfair for those who try to connect (or in your case, re-connect) with them, but if you once share a very special and strong bond with her, perhaps try to give her a little more time to sort it out on her own.

I agree with fidelia that your friend could be somewhat jealous of your love life, since her relationship seem to be full of issues (otherwise, she would've tagged her ex-lover along). Normally, I think Dom-/Aux-Ne users are not good at hiding negative emotions as compare with Fi users. Have you ever tried to drop hints to check if everything is okay with her life? Sometimes, when an ENFJ felt one has been asked genuinely about his/her inner-state of mind, it helps them to share their inner-troubles with others.

But then, of course there's also this notion of how people change when we've been apart. So I couldn't tell you exactly what's the best option, but I would just like to share that I tend to shut down all interaction whenever I'm facing a serious obstacle. And I certainly realise it is unfair and selfish to those who tried hard to reach out to me, just to check out if things are okay in my life. And I'm trying hard to work on this at this moment too.

 

[garbage]

but I don't feel like I can depend on her

There's your answer.

I'm glad that you're out finding happiness for yourself and forging more meaningful connections.

 

[skylights]

Sometimes, I think it's possible for E/INFJ to ignore other contacts simply because they are going through a stage of depression or facing challenges in reality. I know it may sounds unfair for those who try to connect (or in your case, re-connect) with them, but if you once share a very special and strong bond with her, perhaps try to give her a little more time to sort it out on her own.

I agree with fidelia that your friend could be somewhat jealous of your love life, since her relationship seem to be full of issues (otherwise, she would've tagged her ex-lover along). Normally, I think Dom-/Aux-Ne users are not good at hiding negative emotions as compare with Fi users. Have you ever tried to drop hints to check if everything is okay with her life? Sometimes, when an ENFJ felt one has been asked genuinely about his/her inner-state of mind, it helps them to share their inner-troubles with others.

But then, of course there's also this notion of how people change when we've been apart. So I couldn't tell you exactly what's the best option, but I would just like to share that I tend to shut down all interaction whenever I'm facing a serious obstacle. And I certainly realise it is unfair and selfish to those who tried hard to reach out to me, just to check out if things are okay in my life. And I'm trying hard to work on this at this moment too.

Thank you so much for the response... that's good to know. The thing that surprised me was I was that we did speak openly about her relationship and she confided some issues in me right before all of this happened, and she seemed fine with it all. If she was dealing with something, it must have been some very internal shift, because she shut down really suddenly and in the middle of our interaction. I don't know if maybe it was the stark contrast between her grappling with those issues and then being faced with his and my closeness, or what it may have been. I finally pushed her into giving me any response at all - nothing harmful, just said I would start asking others if they knew if she was okay if she didn't respond by a certain period - but she's still maintained distance and pretending like nothing out of the ordinary has happened. I'm going to try to just let the friendship slide back into contact. I miss talking with her and hearing about her life and I still care about her.

There's your answer.

I'm glad that you're out finding happiness for yourself and forging more meaningful connections.

Thanks

Yeah, I think this... it just kind of drives the point home that she can't be the kind of person that I'm searching for friendship-wise. I'd still like her to be a good friend. But now I know I can't look to her to fulfill that role I thought she fulfilled.

 

[JAVO]

I didn't see this thread until now.

I think your friend has some internal thoughts/conflicts she's working through using Ni. They're not ready to be expressed yet, and she probably doesn't even know how express them yet. They might relate to a nonconscious comparison between your SO relationship and her own, but maybe not. Connect on things you know you still connect on with her, and keep things fairly light and funny. Make time your friend rather than your enemy, as I'm trying to do in my related friend situation.

 

[skylights]

I didn't see this thread until now.

I think your friend has some internal thoughts/conflicts she's working through using Ni. They're not ready to be expressed yet, and she probably doesn't even know how express them yet. They might relate to a nonconscious comparison between your SO relationship and her own, but maybe not. Connect on things you know you still connect on with her, and keep things fairly light and funny. Make time your friend rather than your enemy, as I'm trying to do in my related friend situation.

Thanks JAVO

I think maybe it's the e6 that's getting to me in terms of I worry about trying to rely on her in the future if anything like this happens again. A while back we had been joking about her being my maid of honor someday in the far future if I should get married, but I just think about what might happen if she shuts down again at a moment when I'm really depending on her, during a moment that is important to me, and when we're surrounded by people who are important to me. Part of me has deep empathy because Fi also has slow processing and I understand how frustrating it can be to feel "wrong" but to not really understand why yet, and to have to wait for your mind to catch up, but the other part of me notes that it doesn't really seem like she tried to adjust her behavior for my sake, especially given that we don't see each other that often anymore and it was her only chance to make a first impression with my boyfriend. She's very careful with her presentation around people she desires to impress and I really didn't see any effort made for him at all, even if just for my sake.

I think it just really boils down to me wanting more out of the friendship than I'm getting. On the bright side, friendships aren't monogamous.

 

[Glycerine]

I notoriously shut people out or disengage when I am having problems but at the same time, I do respond if they reach out to me. There is usually only so much "emotionally deep" conversation I can take when I am in that state.

What I am trying to say is that it is probably much more about her than you in this situation which can be quite unfair in a friendship.

She could be jealous or maybe she just doesn't want to burden you because she has her problems and feels like a third wheel because you seem so happy and she feels like she's "intruding" on your "new found happiness". Damn, sorry about the run on sentence.

This is slightly different but when my mom got a boyfriend, she wanted all of us to be happy, spends tons of time with him. When I spend time with her, a lot of it is with her boyfriend or if it isn't, she does many things that pertain to her new life or talks about her new boyfriend/new life constantly. She tries to be there for me but it is clear that she is wrapped up in her own world. I know that I can't be there for her and that she can't be there for me right now (now matter how much she argues the point). I know it is fairly different but I thought it might have some relevance.

 

[skylights]

I notoriously shut people out or disengage when I am having problems but at the same time, I do respond if they reach out to me. There is usually only so much "emotionally deep" conversation I can take when I am in that state.

What I am trying to say is that it is probably much more about her than you in this situation which can be quite unfair in a friendship.

She could be jealous or maybe she just doesn't want to burden you because she has her problems and feels like a third wheel because you seem so happy and she feels like she's "intruding" on your "new found happiness". Damn, sorry about the run on sentence.

This is slightly different but when my mom got a boyfriend, she wanted all of us to be happy, spends tons of time with him. When I spend time with her, a lot of it is with her boyfriend or if it isn't, she does many things that pertain to her new life or talks about her new boyfriend/new life constantly. She tries to be there for me but it is clear that she is wrapped up in her own world. I know that I can't be there for her and that she can't be there for me right now (now matter how much she argues the point). I know it is fairly different but I thought it might have some relevance.

Thank you... it does. For a while I was totally obsessive about the relationship. Since I'm sort of in a lull career-wise right now, his and my relationship has really taken a front seat in terms of important things in my life, and I can imagine she's probably sick of hearing about it. Everyone probably is. But I really have made an effort to cut down on it.



The more I think about it the more I think that I just have to shift my expectations of our friendship to better fit what she and I can reasonably do. I guess it's just that once you have the stability and comfort of having someone close, you try to have them fit that role you need instead of trying to look for someone else. She's not the bubbly sweet silly flexible creative close friend I think I really desire... I had a few good friends like that in college and a friend like that in middle school and I really miss them... and I haven't been expecting her to be that, but I think I've been disappointed that she isn't. I deserve and she deserves for me to seek that elsewhere.