[ENFJ] ENFP x ENFJ relationship

[IceBlock]

I've been in a relationship with an ENFJ for 2 month and half now. We are great together, but in these two months we've been through a lot of stuff, good and bad, and it feels like we are together for far too long. Everything with us two is very intense, neutral moments are rare: or we are super okay with each other (great part of the time) or we start to argue for endless hours.

Our fights are 90% of the time initiated by her. She is very motivated, determined, perseverant, assertive, bossy and demanding; very clear in what she wants, and, when I don't match with her desires, it normally gets problematic. She begins a huge drama and always makes herself of a victim. We already had problems with my procrastination, lack of structure and lack of assertiveness. Our argues are long, but normally ends well with one of us making an apology. But these are really exhausting and if possible I wanted to make them rare. What should I do? We are so great when we are okay, and the whole Fe x Fi contact is really unique, but these fights are really tiring, and I want you guys to tell me what should I do...

I'm an ENFP which is most of the time a lot more like an INFP, by the way.

If any ENFP here already had a relationship with another ENFJ, I'd love to hear what it was like. I'd like to hear the other side of the story as well, ENFJs telling me their experiences with ENFPs. Anything ENFJ x ENFP relationship related would be awesome!

Thank you by advance!

 

[sulfit]

I've been in a relationship with an ENFJ for 2 month and half now. We are great together, but in these two months we've been through a lot of stuff, good and bad, and it feels like we are together for far too long. Everything with us two is very intense, neutral moments are rare: or we are super okay with each other (great part of the time) or we start to argue for endless hours.

Our fights are 90% of the time initiated by her. She is very motivated, determined, perseverant, assertive, bossy and demanding; very clear in what she wants, and, when I don't match with her desires, it normally gets problematic. She begins a huge drama and always makes herself of a victim. We already had problems with my procrastination, lack of structure and lack of assertiveness. Our argues are long, but normally ends well with one of us making an apology. But these are really exhausting and if possible I wanted to make them rare. What should I do? We are so great when we are okay, and the whole Fe x Fi contact is really unique, but these fights are really tiring, and I want you guys to tell me what should I do...

In socionics the ENFJ's dual is a dispassionate, cold-blooded, introverted logical type dominant in introverted thinking Ti who needs the kind of drama and heightened emotional tone that your ENFJ is providing to feel alive. There is nothing much you can do about it - she is acting like it's natural for her type. What you described is very interesting because ENFJ is classed as "victim" according erotic attitudes which is exactly what you're experiencing. There are also these informal type descriptions that go over the same kind of behavior. I don't know what to advise except trying to be more dispassionate yourself, like a Ti-dominant type, distancing yourself emotionally and then quietly feeding your ENFJ with some valium.

 

[Amargith]

Warning: tl;dr danger!



It is vital for any couple to learn how to argue constructively with each other. Try talking to her about this when you are *not* having an argument. Tell her you want to figure out how to deal with the conflicts ahead of you coz trust me, *every* couple has conflicts to deal with in their relationship and it wont go away. But with a little work, you can make sure that the conflicts you do have are put to bed permanently, instead of popping up in another form or colour next month.

While Im not dating an Fe-user, here is how we handle ours:

a) we keep in mind that the other person is someone who loves us, and therefore is inherently unlikely to want to hurt us on purpose

b) we realize that we need a solution to the problem where BOTH parties feel like it is a win-win or it will breed resentment in the long run.

c) Personal insults and attacks deteriorate your argument into hourlong marathons which produce more pain than anything else and often dont get to a solution for the actual conflict. Again, before you insult the person in front of you, realize that they love you and that what they said might hurt due to the honesty or frustration that they are experiencing, and *give them the benefit of the doubt* Tell them that that hurt, and that you would want them to further elaborate so you can understand where they are coming from, as well as ask for them to take away the pain they caused

d) In your case, learn about the differences between Fe and Fi and keep in mind that your kneejerk reactions are going to be different. And that different situations are going to resonate differently with you as your perspective on that situation is quite unique. So benefit of the doubt in your case extended from both parties is REALLY important, as your partners response might come across as deceitful, deliberate and untrustworthy. Find out *why* they think that way before you blow up. Go for a walk first, if you cannot seperate yourself from your feelings, but do find out afterwards why the person you love would think that way and how it makes sense to her/him.

Teach her your values, your trip wires and your land mines. Then learn what triggers her Fe landmines, what she values, and what the trip wires are. Step around them, even if they dont make sense to you

e) In each argument, there are 4 factors to consider: how important your relationship is to you, how important your relationship is to her, how important the point of contention is to you and how important the point of contention is to her. Ideally, in a relationship, the first two are going to be of high importance, which means that the topics *should* in relation to that, be less important. Conflict means that you both value the topic (and hopefully your relationship with each other). At that point you want to figure out who cares about what *exactly*, as it is often possible to find complimentary solutions to both parties needs (aka you are fighting about two different things adn they can coexist together, getting everyone what they want). When you are in fact fighting about the same thing, and youve established that, it becomes a matter of which person it matters most to. If it doesnt matter as much to you as it does to you...let it go. And ask her to do the same thing for you. Figure out together why something is important to either of you, so the other can help you fulfill that need properly. Understanding often improves the willingness to cater to what seems like a silly need to the other person, just to make their partner happy

Lastly, if at any time any of you puts one topic above the relationship in importance (and that does happen as we all have our limits and things we wont give up), realise what you are doing. You are in effect saying that your bond is breakable due to this conflict. If they happen to feel the same way and their way is in conflict with yours, a break up is unavoidable. And accept the responsibility that comes with that, instead of blaming the other for the damage done.

In short: team work, benefit of the doubt, understanding and working towards a common goal (improving your relationship) is what will get you through the sea of arguments that are still in your future (they become fun challenges after a while )

If you stand together, there isn't a conflict you cannot handle, nor one that can separate you.

Good luck

 

[IceBlock]

In socionics the ENFJ's dual is a dispassionate, cold-blooded, introverted logical type dominant in introverted thinking Ti who needs the kind of drama and heightened emotional tone that your ENFJ is providing to feel alive. There is nothing much you can do about it - she is acting like it's natural for her type. What you described is very interesting because ENFJ is classed as "victim" according erotic attitudes which is exactly what you're experiencing. There are also these informal type descriptions that go over the same kind of behavior. I don't know what to advise except trying to be more dispassionate yourself, like a Ti-dominant type, distancing yourself emotionally and then quietly feeding your ENFJ with some valium.

Yes I'm aware of Socionics view on ENFP x ENFJ relationship, and I know it's not healthy in their eyes. Anyway, I kind of act distant with her. When in her company, most of the time my main function is Fi, making myself a perfect INFP. This makes me distant in a way, not rationally cold and distant like Ti would, but emotionally distant like Fi would. I think this helps me, because I often feel like she tries to empathize with me with her Fe whenever I take a distance. I'm kind of easily hurt, so this happens in an occasional basis since she says almost everything that occurs on her mind and I naturally get my distance. I rarely lookout for her, and strive to never make she gets sure that I like her a lot. I learned that's important in any relationship, and I see it as healthy for the relationship as a whole. But unfortunately, my Ti is not well-developed, and I can't act as a Ti-user...

Warning: tl;dr danger!



It is vital for any couple to learn how to argue constructively with each other. Try talking to her about this when you are *not* having an argument. Tell her you want to figure out how to deal with the conflicts ahead of you coz trust me, *every* couple has conflicts to deal with in their relationship and it wont go away. But with a little work, you can make sure that the conflicts you do have are put to bed permanently, instead of popping up in another form or colour next month.

While Im not dating an Fe-user, here is how we handle ours:

a) we keep in mind that the other person is someone who loves us, and therefore is inherently unlikely to want to hurt us on purpose

b) we realize that we need a solution to the problem where BOTH parties feel like it is a win-win or it will breed resentment in the long run.

c) Personal insults and attacks deteriorate your argument into hourlong marathons which produce more pain than anything else and often dont get to a solution for the actual conflict. Again, before you insult the person in front of you, realize that they love you and that what they said might hurt due to the honesty or frustration that they are experiencing, and *give them the benefit of the doubt* Tell them that that hurt, and that you would want them to further elaborate so you can understand where they are coming from, as well as ask for them to take away the pain they caused

d) In your case, learn about the differences between Fe and Fi and keep in mind that your kneejerk reactions are going to be different. And that different situations are going to resonate differently with you as your perspective on that situation is quite unique. So benefit of the doubt in your case extended from both parties is REALLY important, as your partners response might come across as deceitful, deliberate and untrustworthy. Find out *why* they think that way before you blow up. Go for a walk first, if you cannot seperate yourself from your feelings, but do find out afterwards why the person you love would think that way and how it makes sense to her/him.

Teach her your values, your trip wires and your land mines. Then learn what triggers her Fe landmines, what she values, and what the trip wires are. Step around them, even if they dont make sense to you

e) In each argument, there are 4 factors to consider: how important your relationship is to you, how important your relationship is to her, how important the point of contention is to you and how important the point of contention is to her. Ideally, in a relationship, the first two are going to be of high importance, which means that the topics *should* in relation to that, be less important. Conflict means that you both value the topic (and hopefully your relationship with each other). At that point you want to figure out who cares about what *exactly*, as it is often possible to find complimentary solutions to both parties needs (aka you are fighting about two different things adn they can coexist together, getting everyone what they want). When you are in fact fighting about the same thing, and youve established that, it becomes a matter of which person it matters most to. If it doesnt matter as much to you as it does to you...let it go. And ask her to do the same thing for you. Figure out together why something is important to either of you, so the other can help you fulfill that need properly. Understanding often improves the willingness to cater to what seems like a silly need to the other person, just to make their partner happy

Lastly, if at any time any of you puts one topic above the relationship in importance (and that does happen as we all have our limits and things we wont give up), realise what you are doing. You are in effect saying that your bond is breakable due to this conflict. If they happen to feel the same way and their way is in conflict with yours, a break up is unavoidable. And accept the responsibility that comes with that, instead of blaming the other for the damage done.

In short: team work, benefit of the doubt, understanding and working towards a common goal (improving your relationship) is what will get you through the sea of arguments that are still in your future (they become fun challenges after a while )

If you stand together, there isn't a conflict you cannot handle, nor one that can separate you.

Good luck

We recently are agreeing more with each other's attitude. Her bossy and controlling nature is already kind of natural to me, and I let she free to get in control most of the times, I don't really care. She respects me a lot, and I think she's also learning to respect my personal need for space.

I rarely insult her, so I don't think that's is a problem for us. When stressed, she is more prone to insult me, but I think she won't do this anymore as easily as before because I have already discussed about this with her.
On the other hand, I find it hard to explain my internal values as you told because I simply don't like to expose them. I think she's slowly learning that I cultivate and am adept to these values, and she is respecting them more. I'm getting more aware about the way she uses Fe as well, and I'm starting to respect and accept more. Fortunately this is all happening naturally.

Anyway, all of this information, specially topic e) is really helpful and informational, I'll probably take advantages of all of these data, thank you!

Recently, fortunately she and I are growing. Our relationship keeps getting more and more intense, and only for the positive side. Today we even faced an odd problem; we were talking on the phone, and discussing on how we are so intimate and close. Then, suddenly the fear of the possibility of both of us get sick of each other came up, and we kind of agreed to take a little distance from each other since we recently are SO close and intimate. That conversation made me and made she feel weird, and I don't know why...
Maybe it's because we got aware of the possibility of getting sick of each other? Or I don't know, maybe we are already... ? I hope nothing happens with us, honestly
Any suggestions? Have anyone felt like this already?

Thank you all guys, all of this is incredibly helpful!

 

[skylights]

Hey [MENTION=14632]IceBlock[/MENTION] Maybe I can help a little. Amargith's post was excellent, hard to live up to. :3

I have also struggled with an ENFJ's assertiveness in terms of what they want. They tend to be very headstrong and controlling. However, one of the tactics that could be helpful to you is to remind her that one of the things she wants is a good relationship with you, and if she wants that, she's going to have to allow some room for you to be your own person. If she can help you in your weak areas, that's great, but she has chosen you for a partner and that means you, warts and all. She has to be willing to figure out good mutual solutions with you for the partnership to work - if you're always bending to her will, it might as well be her in a relationship with herself. She'll never grow to see new perspectives, or benefit from your strengths.

I have noted in my personal relationships that Fe in Fi eyes can often come off as making itself victim. What I've learned through extensive argument analysis with my SFJ boyfriend is that Fe does a lot more looking at behavior and direct external results, especially in contrast with ENFP's natural tendency to look at all the tiny factors and links that have led to the situation at hand. So where I see a huge number of reasons the problem happened, he tends to isolate a handful of reasons - or even a single reason - which I felt like was often me. But when he explained it, I could understand that he saw me as directly precipitating the disagreement by acting in a way that created disharmony - your ENFJ might be seeing things in a similar way, with your not agreeing with her being the direct precipitator of the disagreement. What I have found, however, is he's very open to discussion prior to disagreement - so if your ENFJ raises something you don't want to do, it might be worth it to try to drop it at the tense moment and raise it later, after you've had time to generate a number of alternative ideas about it. ENFP Te/Fi can come across as very confrontational, which can immediately set Fe/Ti into defense mode. Raising the issue later in Ne/Fi terms will probably be much better accepted.

You mentioned it's hard to explain your internal values - Fi can be a tricky little bugger! The more you can flesh them out on paper or in speaking, the better off you both will be. As Fe/Ni, she doesn't share the same internal set of rigid principles that we do, and she should have a fairly easy time navigating those principles once you can clarify them to her.

As for this -

Today we even faced an odd problem; we were talking on the phone, and discussing on how we are so intimate and close. Then, suddenly the fear of the possibility of both of us get sick of each other came up, and we kind of agreed to take a little distance from each other since we recently are SO close and intimate. That conversation made me and made she feel weird, and I don't know why...
Maybe it's because we got aware of the possibility of getting sick of each other? Or I don't know, maybe we are already... ?

My boyfriend and I have had this discussion a handful of times - perhaps because he's sp/sx and I'm sx/so, and we tend to overindulge in the sx bond. When we first were going out, we worked together, and then we would go spend all our free time together, so we wondered if we were too close - we eventually decided to say fuck it, because it made both of us happy. It didn't arise as a problem at all for a long time after that.

About half a year later, we finally did hit a real bumpy patch. At the time, we were sort of using each others' territory without really talking about it, and I think the combination of that plus ignoring other realms of life (taking care of personal affairs, hanging out with family and friends) was wearing on us. We mutually decided to spend a little more time apart, and to clarify our boundaries, and it worked excellently. Since then we've gotten better about spending time taking care of our own affairs and social spheres, and being really up front about what we can and can't reasonably do for each other. And we're still essentially attached at the hip, which is how both of us prefer to be.

My point being, I don't think "too close" is a real problem. I think the real problems are when closeness happens more quickly than boundaries are be established, or when closeness begins to take precedence over everything else in life. Examine the closeness you two share, and try to analyze if it's to the detriment of any other aspects of your life.

Also - 2.5 months could easily be where you guys are beginning to transition out of OOH SHINY GIRLFRIEND/OOH CUTE BOYFRIEND and into more of the realities of coupledom, and that loss of starry-eyed-ness can add a little strain on the relationship. If you'd like to be more specific about some of the arguments you guys have had, or the pattern of devolvement that generally leads downward into argument, I would be interested in hearing it.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

Just think about it in terms of cognitive functions.....it just doesn't work: she's Fe followed by Ni, you are the opposite: Fi second and Ne first. I don't know....sounds feisty, but not lasty...( i mean, i don't think it's a good sign that you are feeling like this after only 2 months, just to be honest.....)

 

[UniqueMixture]

God that sounds like a nightmare

 

[skylights]

I don't know, I think it depends a lot on enneatypes and personal backgrounds. FeNiSeTi-NeFiTeSi can be really satisfying in its mirror balance, and you can really get an amazing amount accomplished between the ENFJ's dedicated on-top-of-itness and the ENFP's depth-delving project orientation. INFP-ENFJ is supposed to be one of the "classic ideal" pairings, and ENFP-ENFJ is really not far away from that, especially considering that the relationship will tend to push ENFP towards I and T while pushing ENFJ towards E and S. You both tend to enjoy social interaction and exploration, and you both tend to be interested in humanitarian ideals. I could see it working well as long as the ENFJ is willing to sacrifice some Ni control and the ENFP is willing to soften their Te edge.

I also don't think it's too early to feel like this. All people and all relationships run on different timelines and experience typical phases at different points. Some of us (especially e5/6/7) tend to worry earlier rather than later - 6 in particular makes you see problems before they're problems. IMO, it also sounds like IceBlock might have a Sx-dom on their hands, which means that intensity will be high and closeness will come swiftly and deeply. Between 7w6 and Sx dom, it's unsurprising that things are developing quickly.

I eventually learned that NJ is not a generally a very good match type for me, because I get too readily absorbed in the Ni vision, but that's due to my own personal weakness of being so people-pleasey and not ego-assertive enough. I don't believe there's anything inherently problematic enough about the ENFP/ENFJ pairing that it would be reason for IceBlock to immediately drop the relationship. Also, I think LadyJaye once pointed out that ENFP/ENFJ stress styles tend to clash - ENFP tends to buckle down and get icy while ENFJ tends to get suspicious and emotional. I suspect it's common for all Fi-Fe pairs to have to really work through stress responses together - I know my FJ and I have. Overcoming difference makes you stronger, though, not weaker. The pair who has had to push through many obstacles together will get more stable with every passing challenge. It's the relationships that have never been faced with difficulty that tend to crumble when suddenly taken to a stress point.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Just think about it in terms of cognitive functions.....it just doesn't work: she's Fe followed by Ni, you are the opposite: Fi second and Ne first. I don't know....sounds feisty, but not lasty...( i mean, i don't think it's a good sign that you are feeling like this after only 2 months, just to be honest.....)

I agree with @pinkgraffiti here. I think it's a bad sign that you're fighting so much this early on in the relationship. Life it too short to spend that much time arguing with your significant other. Yeah, you can both buckle down and learn to argue more constructively, but the bottom line is that in your respective natural states there is a lot about the other that causes friction. This is a bad, bad, bad sign. It shouldn't be so hard so soon. (And, maybe it shouldn't be so hard ever.)

I know there will be people on this site who are going to disagree with me and poo poo me for being typist for what I'm about to say. Nonetheless, I've gotta say that I think the idea of an ENFP and an ENFJ dating is a pretty bad one. Yes, any two types can fall in love. Yes, any two mature people with good people skills can make things work... But jeezie creezie, there are so many inherent obstacles to an ENFP and ENFJ communicating in a seamless fashion. Ni versus Ne. Fi versus Fe. Ti versus Te. I think it's these differences that make it too hard.

Just remember that you could find someone else that you click with (in that NF on NF way you and your ENFJ click) where there aren't so many communication obstacles, i.e., where you don't fight all the time. (Or maybe you could find an INTJ with that whole same Fi/Te thing going on. That's a pretty good match for an ENFP.)

Or forget everything I've just said about type, [MENTION=14632]IceBlock[/MENTION]. Remember that regardless of type, you shouldn't settle for a relationship with so much discord.

 

[IceBlock]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

Yes, in my experience I have always seen Fe-users making themselves as victims all the time. I have one ENFJ friend with a so developed Fe that annoys me to the core. Anyway, that thing about I being precipitating the disagreement is very true! I haven't noticed that... I think she and I naturally tend not to argue being both Feeling users, but the way we engage into disagreements lead us to fights. And I think I might be the guilty here, since my initial reaction to her demandings (source of most of our fights) are not very mature. It' really hard to leave it later the arguing, though. Actually, I normally try to stop disagreements before they become fights, but she doesn't let it, claiming something like: "No! I want to know your opinion on this!". Meh, this is always a trap, because my opinion in these scenarios rarely makes hear calmer.

By the way, indeed, when I have my Fi very confronted and challenged, my Te readies up to defend it. I get aggressive, not very cooperative, and hurting in these cases. I've never detected she using the Fe/Ti on defensive mode by the way...

About the way too close thing, I think you helped me a lot. it's been sometime since we had that weird discussion about intimacy, but I still feel a little weird about all this closeness... I'm not sure though if I should discuss with her about that, I'm probably going to feel weird later, and will certainly hurt her a lot. I also won't like her most likely reaction: pretend to don't care that much about me, and making me feel like I like her way more than she likes me (which is not true), just for making me regret my decision and place herself in a more favorable position. Anyway, it's good to know how you and your partner felt half a year later, this will make me more ready if that happens. Unfortunately, our closeness did happened faster than the establishing of boundaries, so we might have a problem here.

Finally, answering to your request, our arguments are normally initiated by her, as I said, and it's always about demandings she have. She won't understand some of my attitudes, like not being a cheesy boyfriend (which I'm really not with anybody, because I fear of people getting sick of me. I developed this as a child, and can't really control it) and other specific stuff... Some days ago (last Sunday, March's 3rd) she invited me to some kind of park we have here, and I rejected it because I wasn't in the mood. At night, she called me and she started to discuss about this, claiming that if I'm not always present on everything in her life, there's no point to her making me her "everything" (we keep talking about how we are everything to each other, which i true since we are friends, partners, couselors and also dates). She said that I don't always meet her expectations, and that makes she frustrated frequently. Then she started to "threat" me, saying that it'd probably be better if we were not "everything" to each other. She always does that, saying things like: "Ok, fine! But for that maybe we should decrease the level of our relationship." This kind of annoying attitude of her Fe irritates me and hurts me, and the worse part is that I always fall for it. Anyway, in the end I commited myself to start being more surprising and present on her life just so that the argue finishes... not the right thing, I guess.

 

[IceBlock]

Just think about it in terms of cognitive functions.....it just doesn't work: she's Fe followed by Ni, you are the opposite: Fi second and Ne first. I don't know....sounds feisty, but not lasty...( i mean, i don't think it's a good sign that you are feeling like this after only 2 months, just to be honest.....)

God that sounds like a nightmare

I agree with @pinkgraffiti here. I think it's a bad sign that you're fighting so much this early on in the relationship. Life it too short to spend that much time arguing with your significant other. Yeah, you can both buckle down and learn to argue more constructively, but the bottom line is that in your respective natural states there is a lot about the other that causes friction. This is a bad, bad, bad sign. It shouldn't be so hard so soon. (And, maybe it shouldn't be so hard ever.)

I know there will be people on this site who are going to disagree with me and poo poo me for being typist for what I'm about to say. Nonetheless, I've gotta say that I think the idea of an ENFP and an ENFJ dating is a pretty bad one. Yes, any two types can fall in love. Yes, any two mature people with good people skills can make things work... But jeezie creezie, there are so many inherent obstacles to an ENFP and ENFJ communicating in a seamless fashion. Ni versus Ne. Fi versus Fe. Ti versus Te. I think it's these differences that make it too hard.

Just remember that you could find someone else that you click with (in that NF on NF way you and your ENFJ click) where there aren't so many communication obstacles, i.e., where you don't fight all the time. (Or maybe you could find an INTJ with that whole same Fi/Te thing going on. That's a pretty good match for an ENFP.)

Or forget everything I've just said about type, [MENTION=14632]IceBlock[/MENTION]. Remember that regardless of type, you shouldn't settle for a relationship with so much discord.

I recognize that, in MBTI's view our relationship is not good, and I understand why. Actually, I have no idea how I ended up in a relationship with an ENFJ, because I've always had problems with them, and normally got annoyed with their controlling and manipulative nature. I'm starting to see that this relationship might be a waste of time, even though how good our times together are. On the other hand, we recently are getting more understandable of others needs and it's more intense than ever. The fights have become more rare now, so I'm waiting to see where it's all going. Plus, the process of breaking up is SO ABSURDLY TIRING, UNCONFORTABLE, DISCOURAGING for me that it's more likely to give indirect reasons for she breaking up than that attitude coming from me. Nevertheless, I'm happy with her, and I'm in love also, so I don't feel like putting an end is the right answer yet.

 

[UniqueMixture]

Not trying to discourage you. It's your life.

 

[garbage]

Let's just say "fuck MBTI" for a second.

It sounds like her standards are absolutely fucked and she's setting herself up for failure.

She loves her some control. The whole "Pygmalion project" thing is a definite form of control. Her ultimatum-threats are an assertion of control.

You deserve to be able to dictate some of the terms of the relationship that you're both present in--in this case, by sticking up for yourself and perhaps taking her up on her ultimatum-offers. Chances are that she's bluffing and doesn't even recognize it.

She'll relinquish part of that control if an ultimatum doesn't go the way she expects. She'll either adjust her standards (e.g. she'll stop being so clueless), by adjusting her situation (e.g. distancing herself), or adjusting her ultimatum ("oh, no; I didn't really mean that..").

In any of those cases, it seems that you're better off.

 

[skylights]

It sounds like her standards are absolutely fucked and she's setting herself up for failure.

She loves her some control. [...] Chances are that she's bluffing and doesn't even recognize it.

She'll relinquish part of that control if an ultimatum doesn't go the way she expects. She'll either adjust her standards (e.g. she'll stop being so clueless), by adjusting her situation (e.g. distancing herself), or adjusting her ultimatum ("oh, no; I didn't really mean that..").

In any of those cases, it seems that you're better off.

I just read your response to me, [MENTION=14632]IceBlock[/MENTION], and I completely agree with what bologna has said here. I didn't want to jump too quickly on the bad-type-match bandwagon, because this isn't about type matching, but about individual health. It seems that she has a rather skewed view of what a relationship should be, and how she should be treated. I think bologna is right that she's probably bluffing and not realizing it - I myself did that at the beginning of my boyfriend and I's relationship when I felt threatened and scared, and I didn't even realize what I was doing until he called my bluff and said we should break up, and I burst into tears (at which point he said he didn't really want to either, but he had to know if I was really sold on it or not). I agree that you should stick up for yourself and take her up on an ultimatum. You will both find out whether she really means it and whether continuing the relationship is viable.

 

[IceBlock]

Let's just say "fuck MBTI" for a second.

It sounds like her standards are absolutely fucked and she's setting herself up for failure.

She loves her some control. Her ultimatum-threats are an assertion of control.

You deserve to be able to dictate some of the terms of the relationship that you're both present in--in this case, by sticking up for yourself and perhaps taking her up on her ultimatum-offers. Chances are that she's bluffing and doesn't even recognize it.

She'll relinquish part of that control if an ultimatum doesn't go the way she expects. She'll either adjust her standards (e.g. she'll stop being so clueless), by adjusting her situation (e.g. distancing herself), or adjusting her ultimatum ("oh, no; I didn't really mean that..").

In any of those cases, it seems that you're better off.

I just read your response to me, [MENTION=14632]IceBlock[/MENTION], and I completely agree with what bologna has said here. I didn't want to jump too quickly on the bad-type-match bandwagon, because this isn't about type matching, but about individual health. It seems that she has a rather skewed view of what a relationship should be, and how she should be treated. I think bologna is right that she's probably bluffing and not realizing it - I myself did that at the beginning of my boyfriend and I's relationship when I felt threatened and scared, and I didn't even realize what I was doing until he called my bluff and said we should break up, and I burst into tears (at which point he said he didn't really want to either, but he had to know if I was really sold on it or not). I agree that you should stick up for yourself and take her up on an ultimatum. You will both find out whether she really means it and whether continuing the relationship is viable.

I think that you had a twisted and wrong impression about her. I don't think she have a skewed view of a relationship, but DO have a very concrete and clear vision of what she wants her boyfriend to be like. Also, I do impose some of the terms in this relationship, but it's not like I have this need to lead stuff, you know? Imposing total power and taking the lead is very consuming for me, and since she is so willing to do that, I leave most on her hands, and, when I feel I should interfere, I do.

Anyway, so these ultimatum threatenings might be bluffs, right? I had imagined this possibility, but I always succumb to her drama EVEN THOUGH I'M AWARE IT'S ALL SET-UP TO MAKE ME AGREE WITH HER I think I gotta try this out, though...

In the end, you two are telling me that I should react in a way that she doesn't expect, even if that mean that I should threat a break-up?

 

[skylights]

I think that you had a twisted and wrong impression about her. I don't think she have a skewed view of a relationship, but DO have a very concrete and clear vision of what she wants her boyfriend to be like. Also, I do impose some of the terms in this relationship, but it's not like I have this need to lead stuff, you know? Imposing total power and taking the lead is very consuming for me, and since she is so willing to do that, I leave most on her hands, and, when I feel I should interfere, I do.

Well, I do apologize if we read it wrong. I know that you love her and would prefer to have a good relationship if possible. Just, being an ENFP myself, I know that I can tend to let the other person take over so much that I lose my own identity in the interest of becoming who they want, and that eventually can backfire very badly. It's just a little concerning if she's expecting you to do all the meeting her needs, but not being as willing to adapt to yours.

Anyway, so these ultimatum threatenings might be bluffs, right? I had imagined this possibility, but I always succumb to her drama EVEN THOUGH I'M AWARE IT'S ALL SET-UP TO MAKE ME AGREE WITH HER I think I gotta try this out, though...

In the end, you two are telling me that I should react in a way that she doesn't expect, even if that mean that I should threat a break-up?

Yes, because what she's essentially doing right now is threatening you into doing what she wants. If you know that she sets the whole thing up to make you agree, then it's not a fair argument, and she needs to go into discussion with you on fair terms. The whole point of a bluff is that the other person is betting that you won't call them out on it. It's a power play hinging on you not challenging their power.

I think the main point here is that for a relationship to work, you have to be equals. It's normal for one person to be more dominant and one person to be more submissive, but the more dominant person also has the responsibility of ensuring that they use their dominance to benefit the more submissive person, not to control them.

 

[garbage]

^ Welp, all of that.