[NF] NFs and emotional dishonesty

[ladymish]

Just want to get some thoughts from the NF's horses mouths. This - what I see as emotional dishonesty from NFs in my life - is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Illustrative events:

ENFP I am close to has the serious hots for a woman. This woman is friends with him but enjoys various short-lived, mostly sexual relationships with men (she's single). My ENFP friend constantly talks about being "happy" for her and says things like "well I'm glad she's having a good time" and "she should be out having fun, she's young!" etc. I don't have an issue with the sentiments, it's just that they're clearly not true. When asked if he feels any sexual jealousy he says no. Now, first of all, he does feel sexual jealousy, it really could not be anymore obvious and, second of all, it's not like I judge him for this in any way. Who WOULDN'T feel sexual jealousy in that situation? I certainly would. A few days ago I engaged him in convo on this topic and he ended up reluctantly admitting that yes, he was jealous, and it clearly made him uncomfortable to admit, he even seemed slightly ashamed.

I am the only ENTJ in a family of INFPs (2) and INFJs (2). Both types, but especially the INFPs, are in the business of flat-out denying that a situation involves emotion (especially what they perceive as negative emotion - anger etc.) - the classic sweeping under the rug/denial tactic. That is how both INFPs solve interpersonal problems. Don't talk about it until it blows over, then act like it never happened. This is the exact opposite of my instinct, which is to immediately get everything out there, verbally, and talk it out honestly, even if the honesty may be difficult. I am compelled to do this when conflict arises and none of my family members react well to it, AT ALL. The INFPs pretty much perceive it, as far as I can see, as an attack and both think of me badly for it, both think I do it because I love conflict and not because I am trying to resolve a situation the only way I know how (which is true, it is not in any way about loving conflict with family members). Both react very emotionally with extreme defensiveness and, if I push it (which I generally don't because I know what the outcome will be), extreme anger.

Now, wtf is going on here? Where is this emotional intelligence I hear so much about? Are these just unhealthy INFPs? Someone explain to me what's going on in their heads, because it frustrates the hell out of me to be thought of as the aggressive, confrontational 'bad guy' when as I see it I should be getting at least SOME credit for trying to actually, you know, do something about what are sometimes pretty serious emotional conflicts.

And aside from getting any credit, which isn't what this is about, it just...it is very frustrating, I suspect for all of us. Communication is close to nil. I generally don't even bother anymore because I know it'll end in tears, and they just prefer to pretend nothing's up.

Please, tell me what the hell is going on here. With the ENFP, too. Why are these NF types seeming to have so much trouble expressing their honest emotions? How am I misreading this, if I am? How can I make comms easier with the INFXs in my family?

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!! Ahem.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

When she finally rejects him definitively, he will hopefully get the much needed slap in the face he deserves, forget about her, and go be a man and get some for himself.

I think it can happen to anyone not just NF's. Doesn't really sound type related, women can make any man lose his mind. Surely he'll get over it. Not much you can do.

 

[ladymish]

Wtf.

 

[kyuuei]

A few days ago I engaged him in convo on this topic and he ended up reluctantly admitting that yes, he was jealous, and it clearly made him uncomfortable to admit, he even seemed slightly ashamed.

Sometimes venting does help.. but in his case, I would deny it until the day I died. Eventually I would just avoid interactions with her, but admitting it does no good for me. Why? So I can acknowledge that I am sexually jealous of those men that can have a relation with a girl I want in a way I would never be able to accomplish? I could never just have sex with her and leave it at that, so I wouldn't even if given the opportunity... and if I did it'd be because I foolishly convinced myself that she really cares for me in a similar way somehow.. A lie in and of itself, so why bother going down that messy route and set her, and myself, up for failure?? She's probably well aware of the situation, and purposefully avoids it entirely for the sake of peace, and he probably knows that as well. But why acknowledge that and start any hints of resentment as if it's somehow her responsibility to make me feel better about myself and my attractions? It isn't.

Acknowledging it means making it more real in his head.. and in this case, he's probably just trying to make it go away so that he, too, can get along with everyone peacefully. Either he'll succeed, or he'll eventually do something stupid to make the whole thing implode.

Don't talk about it until it blows over, then act like it never happened. This is the exact opposite of my instinct, which is to immediately get everything out there, verbally, and talk it out honestly, even if the honesty may be difficult. I am compelled to do this when conflict arises and none of my family members react well to it, AT ALL. The INFPs pretty much perceive it, as far as I can see, as an attack and both think of me badly for it, both think I do it because I love conflict and not because I am trying to resolve a situation the only way I know how (which is true, it is not in any way about loving conflict with family members). Both react very emotionally with extreme defensiveness and, if I push it (which I generally don't because I know what the outcome will be), extreme anger.

I'm an NF and this is how I like conflict as well--I like to put everything out there and resolve it--if something is going to result in conflict anyways why not get it over with now instead of needless tension? But I think this is less of a typology thing and more of a nurture thing.. I'm the only one in my family that is like this--something I inherited from my father before he fell into depression. I call things like they are, and even if they hurt I want people to do the same with me. My sister, however, gets so defensive because she feels that I'm disrespecting her if I call her out on her flaws. She wants a family member to be supportive no matter what. To me, I am supporting her.. but it isn't the support SHE wants, it's the support I know how to give best, and those tend to clash and then I look to be the bad guy... even if I was right and they come crawling back later.

Some people don't want everything to be fixed. They're fine with the situations as they are. I'll give you an example: If you've never seen it, I highly recommend this episode of The Office. It's meant to be funny, but you can actually learn a ton from it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWsGvRrDO1Q

Basically, people vent to the HR rep, then later they redact it and it turns out the issue wasn't really worth complaining about after a while. When the boss thinks he's going to solve everyone's problems by airing out all the dirty laundry, he ends up creating new ones in the process. Everyone has their own way of solving things.. and it's a complex system no matter how simple you think you are as a person. There's no black and white rule for dealing with stress and issues. Every single issue is unique.

I always am walking on eggshells around my sisters. I forever will be doing this as long as I interact with them. It's the way they are, and I cannot change them.

Please, tell me what the hell is going on here. With the ENFP, too. Why are these NF types seeming to have so much trouble expressing their honest emotions? How am I misreading this, if I am? How can I make comms easier with the INFXs in my family?

Is your definition of honesty just the concrete facts of everything? Maybe their honest opinion is no matter how much it hurts I cannot remain angry because I value my family above any of these issues, so it does no good to be angry.. I'd rather just cry about it quietly and move on. Everyone's definition of honesty is a different one as well. And every situation has more viewpoints than just one.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Wtf.

lol...I was talking about en ENFP guy you first mentioned.

 

[WALMART]

Maybe he only agreed to shut you up about it.



I also find the presence of five intuits to zero sensors highly suspicious in your ability to type.

 

[Aesthete]

I also find the presence of five intuits to zero sensors highly suspicious in your ability to type.

It's six intuits if you include him (or whoever you left out).

 

[WALMART]

It's six intuits if you include him (or whoever you left out).

Ah, I was mostly speaking about his/her family, but I see your point.


Yes, six intuits. I'm really just nitpicking your understanding of people and their motives, ladymish.

 

[Standuble]

This to me seems more of a P/J conflict than an T/F one. Basically the INFPs are working through how they feel about the situation and any emotions that are occurring. These are usually being worked through as an ongoing process and the evaluations are difficult to outwardly express due to the introverted nature of the feeling function. So whilst the INFPs could tell you in detail they may not be able to tell you enough to the sufficient degree to explain it in all its facets (especially if a key factor is overlooked in the explanation.) There is also the possibility that the explanation the INFP has for their behaviour is expected to be later altered after gaining additional insights through contemplation. They would hold back again from explaining the situation if they feel they need to explain it again thirty minutes from now as they have had a change in perspective.

Likewise the whole sweeping it under the rug thing relates to the above. They want to forget because they may have shamed themselves in a situation where before blowing up they saw the situation as more negative or personal than they did after blowing up. They would rather every party move on and the INFP learn from their stupid mistake.

There is more but I need to go to bed. Hope this answers some questions.

 

[cafe]

I hate conflict and generally only engage in it irl as a last resort. Oftentimes, I know that my feelings are temporary or that they are not the other person's problem nor are they anyone's business but my own. I am not obligated to share my thoughts or express my feelings. Unless I'm venting or very overwrought, I only do so if I feel it is constructive in some way. To me, negative feelings are kind of like underwear: they aren't supposed to be showing under normal circumstances.

 

[SilkRoad]

I hate conflict and generally only engage in it irl as a last resort. Oftentimes, I know that my feelings are temporary or that they are not the other person's problem nor are they anyone's business but my own. I am not obligated to share my thoughts or express my feelings. Unless I'm venting or very overwrought, I only do so if I feel it is constructive in some way. To me, negative feelings are kind of like underwear: they aren't supposed to be showing under normal circumstances.

This almost exactly for me too.

 

[Glycerine]

They don't want other people dictating what emotions they are feeling because chances are, they already know (and the other person may be completely off-base) so they tend to keep to it themselves or downplay it.

 

[SilkRoad]

I really doubt you could generalise that much about NFs though. To me this has more to do with IxxJ and ExxP differences, for example. (or at least xxFP and xxFJ)

 

[Glycerine]

I was talking more about INFPs (and to some extent, ENFPs), oops.

I guess, possibility of conflict would be more my reason.

 

[SilkRoad]

Oh, sorry [MENTION=5109]Glycerine[/MENTION] I actually didn't mean my above post to refer to what you'd just said! It was more to do with the OP referring to "NFs".

 

[Glycerine]

It still gave me a chance to clarify, lol

 

[WALMART]

Yes, I'm pretty positive in my ISTP typing and I suppress emotions like no one's business.

 

[Aesthete]

Ah, I was mostly speaking about his/her family, but I see your point.


Yes, six intuits. I'm really just nitpicking your understanding of people and their motives, ladymish.

Yes, I noticed what your point is, so I corrected you to add to your point.

 

[ladymish]

I also find the presence of five intuits to zero sensors highly suspicious in your ability to type.

I didn't type these people myself - my brother got me into this and he gave everyone the quiz thingie in our family. ENFP friend just knows what type he is because he did some exercise at a work getaway that involved Myers Briggs. I don't know enough about MBTI, at all, to start making assumptions about other people's types.

As for the responses...OK. I mean, with both INFPs, once it's been swept under the rug and a few days have passed they DO seem genuinely OK with things, not like they are still harbouring some underground anger etc. It's just that that to me is totally unsatisfactory (to me, I'm not making objective statements god I feel defensive being an ENTJ in the NF section :hi - these conflicts continually arise in our family, almost always the same background issues, wouldn't it be better to try and actually work it out rather than letting it happen over and over? These conflicts really upset me and everyone involved, I don't understand why they aren't willing to help do their part to try and resolve it. Or resolve some of it. or at least clear up misunderstandings (of which I assume there are many because humans = complex).

Re: telling people what they feel. I don't do that. I *hate* having that done to me and I try my very best not to do it. The thing is, it's murky. I have literally had my sister screaming in my face, calling me names, followed by "IM NOT ANGRY!!!" Um, OK there. Everything about you at this moment says anger to me but if you say so... Again, accomplished? Nothing.

What I don't like is being the 'bad guy'. I'm not the bad guy. We all have our own ways of dealing, and by default in our family, theirs prevails simply through strength of numbers. I'm not evil because my way is different. I just don't get it. Not at all. Why not try to make a situation that is causing everyone pain, better?

Edit: As for my ENFP friend, why no, I had not considered the possibility he was just trying to shut my prying ass up. Not at all. I defer to your opinion on this and wish to subscribe to your pulled-put-of-my-butt newsletter.

Edit Part The Deux: In regards to `honesty`- basically, if you`re angry and you claim not to be (or happy, or jealous, or sad etc.) than that is dishonest. I do consider it as much.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Just want to get some thoughts from the NF's horses mouths. This - what I see as emotional dishonesty from NFs in my life - is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Illustrative events:

ENFP I am close to has the serious hots for a woman. This woman is friends with him but enjoys various short-lived, mostly sexual relationships with men (she's single). My ENFP friend constantly talks about being "happy" for her and says things like "well I'm glad she's having a good time" and "she should be out having fun, she's young!" etc. I don't have an issue with the sentiments, it's just that they're clearly not true. When asked if he feels any sexual jealousy he says no. Now, first of all, he does feel sexual jealousy, it really could not be anymore obvious and, second of all, it's not like I judge him for this in any way. Who WOULDN'T feel sexual jealousy in that situation? I certainly would. A few days ago I engaged him in convo on this topic and he ended up reluctantly admitting that yes, he was jealous, and it clearly made him uncomfortable to admit, he even seemed slightly ashamed.

I am the only ENTJ in a family of INFPs (2) and INFJs (2). Both types, but especially the INFPs, are in the business of flat-out denying that a situation involves emotion (especially what they perceive as negative emotion - anger etc.) - the classic sweeping under the rug/denial tactic. That is how both INFPs solve interpersonal problems. Don't talk about it until it blows over, then act like it never happened. This is the exact opposite of my instinct, which is to immediately get everything out there, verbally, and talk it out honestly, even if the honesty may be difficult. I am compelled to do this when conflict arises and none of my family members react well to it, AT ALL. The INFPs pretty much perceive it, as far as I can see, as an attack and both think of me badly for it, both think I do it because I love conflict and not because I am trying to resolve a situation the only way I know how (which is true, it is not in any way about loving conflict with family members). Both react very emotionally with extreme defensiveness and, if I push it (which I generally don't because I know what the outcome will be), extreme anger.

Now, wtf is going on here? Where is this emotional intelligence I hear so much about? Are these just unhealthy INFPs? Someone explain to me what's going on in their heads, because it frustrates the hell out of me to be thought of as the aggressive, confrontational 'bad guy' when as I see it I should be getting at least SOME credit for trying to actually, you know, do something about what are sometimes pretty serious emotional conflicts.

And aside from getting any credit, which isn't what this is about, it just...it is very frustrating, I suspect for all of us. Communication is close to nil. I generally don't even bother anymore because I know it'll end in tears, and they just prefer to pretend nothing's up.

Please, tell me what the hell is going on here. With the ENFP, too. Why are these NF types seeming to have so much trouble expressing their honest emotions? How am I misreading this, if I am? How can I make comms easier with the INFXs in my family?

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!! Ahem.

I suspect it's a combination of:

1. Te-doms versus Fi-doms/aux
2. How you come off to them.
3. The historical/established pattern of your interactions with your family.
4. Age of those involved here.

I can expand on these if you comment on the above so I have more data to help.