[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Tiltyred]

Being painfully honest, PB, I see you as desperately wanting to be liked. I feel you wanting attention and approval more than anything. I feel that a lot with INFP -- that it wants approval more than anything else. Ok -- taking that a step further, and I'm walking on thin ice, I know, but wth, I can swim -- needing approval a priori puts you one down. Do you see that? If you're waiting for me to see you as equal, you've already put yourself one down to me.

Please do understand that I bet if we met each other in real life, we would like each other and get along fine -- just talking about my impression/reaction here in writing on this particular subject, and with zero intent to be hurtful.

Also -- again, I'm cringing because this is brutally honest -- I'm not in the least interested in seeing things as you do. It's not adaptive for me. Just as you find my process objectionable and not adaptive for you -- you prefer your own process. Edit to add: Yes, I know I am right for me. For my own purposes, I am guided by my own light, and I have to stick by that. If you know you are right for you, then we're ok, as long as we don't piss each other off or hurt each other's feelings too drastically. I respect your right to see it however you see it. Sometimes you ask process questions, though, and instead of it being about the process, i.e., where did I go wrong, it seems like you don't really want to hear where you went wrong. You want to hear where you were misjudged in your intent. Or where you understandably didn't adequately process the information that was given to you. Or, in general, that you are ok. That's a different question than "What did i do wrong?" Your question (it seems to me) turns out to actually be "Why did I not experience validation?" So maybe that's the lesson for INFJ -- you people basically see us as not very nice. To the extent we care (and I don't mean that to be flippant, I mean only to be honest), we need to do something about that. Do you think this is true, at the fundament of it all?


I don't know what we can do about it except to be as kind as possible in our interactions. I don't pretend to logic and i'm not an intellectual, so ... that's all I got.

 

[Standuble]

What a contentious thread. We've received several reports from several users, and I'm too lazy to handle them on a case-by-case basis right now.

If you're provoking specific people, stop provoking those people. If someone has requested that you not engage them, don't engage them. If you're in a continual catfight with someone, do not be in that catfight any longer. Conversely, if you're reading personal insults into posts where there is no personal insult, stop that, too.

I'll be more specific if I wind up having to be, though I hope that I won't have to.

In general, just be more civil than usual. You're here to try to understand one another, for God's sake.

You should get involved too. Let your hair down, forget yourself for a time and jump into the abyss. What's wrong with a bit of virtual mud throwing over a sea of zeros and ones anyway?

Being painfully honest, PB, I see you as desperately wanting to be liked. I feel you wanting attention and approval more than anything. I feel that a lot with INFP -- that it wants approval more than anything else.

INFPs really only want to be liked and receive approval from a few people and in a few areas. They hate invalidation of themselves in regards to areas they value but if they are anything like me, do not really care if they are disliked in regards to factors they don't value. I'm not that concerned when I get called lazy, arrogant or selfish unless its from people I personally care about and I hate being called stupid in regards to subjects and areas I have interest in. I like PB personally and if she's anything like me this "wanting to be liked" is actually "wants to be validated and perceived as someone who has good insights in a topic and area that is enjoyed." Probably just cares about the people who are supposed to validate them on top.

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, yes, Standuble, that's exactly what I see as well. "I am an SO and an INFP and I therefore have standing to believe I am good with people, so why did this interaction not go well?" with the intended meaning actually being "My ego is hurt. Please tell me that I did it right and this person just responded badly."

and this is what INFJ means as white noise. What you ask for is not really what you want. Believe it or not, if we know what you want, we will likely be very happy to give it to you on a platter with a complimentary glass of champagne. But if we think you're trying to trick it out of us, we balk. Or if we receive the impression you want ego strokes when you say you want to have an intellectual discussion about a point. This to us is a mixed message, and we'll usually go for the objective part of it and "attack" the behavior, because that's the observable part of it. To which INFP objects "but I meant ...." and we'll say "but you said ..." and then after a few rounds of this, we want you to stop talking, because we're not getting the meaning out of what you say -- the words are all in the way.

It goes the other way 'round, too. INFJ says "Stop doing x thing. It's driving me crazy." INFP hears "Something about x drives her crazy. I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean literally x thing, because I didn't intend any harm by x thing," and keeps on doing x until INFJ explodes in a rage, whereupon INFP retreats in confusion. It's only after repeated requests from INFJ, "Please no more X thing, and when I say X thing, I mean exactly X thing" that INFP finally gets that X thing = no good in INFJ land. Whereupon INFJ is accused of being judgmental, harsh, etc.

Dunno, that's what I see.

 

[Standuble]

Ok, yes, Standuble, that's exactly what I see as well. "I am an SO and an INFP and I therefore have standing to believe I am good with people, so why did this interaction not go well?" with the intended meaning actually being "My ego is hurt. Please tell me that I did it right and this person just responded badly."

This example wasn't what I meant but I do agree with what you mean, it's a line of thought which exists in a number of scenarios and one I seriously doubt is limited to INFPs. However you're making the assertion that it is PBs actual thought process (without proof) despite also making the claim in the below paragraph that you do not understand what INFPs want and thus are not a mind reader.

and this is what INFJ means as white noise. What you ask for is not really what you want. Believe it or not, if we know what you want, we will likely be very happy to give it to you on a platter with a complimentary glass of champagne. But if we think you're trying to trick it out of us, we balk. Or if we receive the impression you want ego strokes when you say you want to have an intellectual discussion about a point. This to us is a mixed message, and we'll usually go for the objective part of it and "attack" the behavior, because that's the observable part of it. To which INFP objects "but I meant ...." and we'll say "but you said ..." and then after a few rounds of this, we want you to stop talking, because we're not getting the meaning out of what you say -- the words are all in the way.

What can I say? There's a belief floating around (at least in my observation) that N's hear and perceive what isn't said or directly implied. I would assume that the INFP would believe that as a dominant N type you would be able to make that determination in some capacity and not have to rely on the immediately observable like an S type would and would take this idea for granted. Or is that a treat reserved more for Ne types?
It's true that INFPs do like ego strokes from time to time but then who doesn't? Also be aware in said communication that there is much that cannot be expressed or quantified in the INFP's feeling and the INFP can do little about it. The image of the implied meaning being different from the stated words is unavoidable. Think of it as the space between letters or words, that space makes all the difference in written communication. For us the spaces are being made against our will, we can't fill them in and thus the implied meaning is different. If that makes sense.

 

[Tiltyred]

Makes perfect sense yes.

Also ... it's an impression I have formed over time, that those are her thought processes. Certainly I may be wrong. But I do see a lot of "pay attention to me and tell me I'm wonderful" or even just "pay attention to me" interspersed with more thoughtful posts. What else is this, for example?

*peacebabe-ster returns to thread ..................... decides to start den renovations whilst pondering latest developments*

 

[uumlau]

Right vs wrong is a power play however. It's always been a power play. There's little equity when someone sits in that position over another, and can't see another person's viewpoint as even having validity.

It's not always a power play from the Fe/Te PoV, though it can be. A Te-dom of my acquaintance would often argue with me about various contentious issues. We'd argue, eventually get down to brass tacks, and he'd note, "Oh, you're assuming that X is true, while I'm assuming Y is true. OK, that makes sense," and the argument would be over. Remember that for Te and Fe, the argument is over an object OUTSIDE of ourselves. I might be pointing at A, and he's pointing at B, but that doesn't mean my ego is attached to A or his is attached to B. A and B are just starting points.

I suspect it FEELS more like a power play to Fi/Ti, however. Subjective ideas tend to have a lot of ego attached, and Ti and Fi types tend to push back VERY HARD if you approach too close. The picture in my head is of a nice but curious doggy (Je) sniffing at a cat (Fi) and the cat clawing at the doggy's nose just because the doggy got too close. The doggies don't mind each other a bit, though, and they'll bark loudly at each other and sniff at each others' butts until they're both happy.

 

[1487610420]

The ego is a hungry beast. It takes a brave crazy person to willfully starve it and let go of a mind-made identity that stays at the core of their existence. Madness.

 

[Standuble]

The ego is a hungry beast. It takes a brave crazy person to willfully starve it and let go of a mind-made identity that stays at the core of their existence. Madness.

Especially if the ego subconsciously seeks to make itself bigger through bragging rights by stating: "I'm so cool I don't need my ego. I can starve it of all its needs and live to tell the tale!"

 

[1487610420]

Especially if the ego subconsciously seeks to make itself bigger through bragging rights by stating: "I'm so cool I don't need my ego. I can starve it of all its needs and live to tell the tale!"

The ego can feed on anything, even the idea of it's own destruction.

@ everyone invested in their points and need for X because it satisfies Y in their identity, and thus preemptively preventing any form of communication that touches on said points, for it would constitute an insurmountable aggression to one's existence i.e. "if I don't defend X, to which I have chosen to attach my identity to, then I will be striking a blow against myself that I do not know how to deal with, for this identification provides me a safe ground and I don't know how to think of myself/exist without it":

 

[Tiltyred]

I like my ego stroked in private and only by certain people, or yeah, I would rather starve. Not to say that's better at all, just ... if you're poking fun at me (INFJ paranoia or are they really poking fun at me), I cop to that somewhat.

 

[Society]

And your analysis should be taken straight, with no salt

nope, that's the beauty in sharing how you reached a conclusion - nobody has to take anything straight or salt free, the thought process is naked, out in the open and welcoming for anyone to have it's way with it, see the foundation and the connections, point out any errors of judgement along the way, find the axioms you disagree with, examine the variables from various angles, find any missing variables that can be related to the variables i did see. and if i accidently left a garment on, which does happen - my translation from what is mostly visual thinking is far from perfect - there's always an openness to questioning, because in doing so you would be helping me reach a better conclusion.
sometimes the error you'll point out is some fallacy that i then realize to be really obvious and you can join me as i have a good laugh at my own expense, other times i'll see axioms in your counter argument that i'll want to explore before combining, sometimes i find an assumption that i didn't realize i was making. other times i will find that the counter argument works verbally but not in the mental schema, and see if i can better translate it.

the reason being that the best strategy so far for finding if your assertion is true is to make it as easily as possible to disprove when it isn't. the more vulnerable it is to disproved and the more opportunities it has to do so, the more confident i can be about it when that doesn't happen.

 

[Tiltyred]

The fact that you can point out holes in my reasoning does not mean that my conclusion is wrong, so a lot of what you do just looks like mental masturbation to me.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Your candor is appreciated.

Being painfully honest, PB, I see you as desperately wanting to be liked. I feel you wanting attention and approval more than anything. I feel that a lot with INFP -- that it wants approval more than anything else. Ok -- taking that a step further, and I'm walking on thin ice, I know, but wth, I can swim -- needing approval a priori puts you one down. Do you see that? If you're waiting for me to see you as equal, you've already put yourself one down to me.

I certainly don't want to alienate anyone in this conversation; I do want to be likable, in this venue, on this topic. I'll 'cop' to that. If I was desperately wanting to be liked in general though, there are certainly far better threads to be participating in than this one!

That's a different question than "What did i do wrong?"

Hmm, well, it is a different question to me. I didn't want my ego stroked, or to be validated that I am a good person. That kind of validation is relatively meaningless to me. I already knew I did 'wrong' - I shared that story to say, "Hey, I generally do a good job meeting the needs of the people around me. But look, here's how I sucked! I don't know 100% why, so I don't understand the minutiae here, but I learned that this approach may not work best for INFJ's."

"Help me understand why" is the unspoken question. If the INFJ answer is, "Well, she is going through a divorce, and most INFJ's will find it difficult to concentrate with that kind of emotional white noise in their life. So, while processing any kind of unpleasantness, especially if it tends to affect their overall performance in other areas they'll really appreciate others who silently 'get' this, cut them a little slack, and believe that with a little support they'll be back to their normal selves in due time..." hey, I can TOTALLY accept that answer.

It's not the approach I would want or need, but hey, I will try to give you what you need too. But I won't presume to know it. I'm not a mind-reader, and I won't pretend to be, even if I think my guess might be 70 or 80% right. That percentage is not enough. Maybe it's enough for Te and Fe, but not for me. I'm not as confident in a one-size approach because for one thing, the Fe guidelines are not as obvious to me to begin with. I already get lots of Fi signs from Fi people that are kind of in opposition to Fe, so what can I say?

So, I customize interactions to the individual. Not to a wider context. My first guess might be off. Over time, I can tailor it. The part I guess that bugs me somewhat is during this 'tailoring' process, an INFJ will think, "Hey, we are not so aligned after all, they don't just 'get' me therefore this person does not fit into the framework of my life." I know that's a right you have, to make that choice, it's just usually never articulated, so the recipient doesn't know the 'why' of the distancing. I would say this has happened to me with one INFJ? One can just feel that process. It feels cold. I want to understand it better. And I think I do now, thanks to this thread.

Your question (it seems to me) turns out to actually be "Why did I not experience validation?"

I look inside for validation, not outside, so the ego-stroke isn't invested in the outer interaction itself. It's invested in me doing what I think is the right thing to do, approach a friend in need. Sure, the result matters too though, very much to me, hence the interest in approaching in the most advantageous manner possible.

So maybe that's the lesson for INFJ -- you people basically see us as not very nice. To the extent we care (and I don't mean that to be flippant, I mean only to be honest), we need to do something about that. Do you think this is true, at the fundament of it all?

Well, wasting 100 or so posts on people I don't think are "not very nice" wouldn't be very logical, would it?

Also ... it's an impression I have formed over time, that those are her thought processes. Certainly I may be wrong. But I do see a lot of "pay attention to me and tell me I'm wonderful" or even just "pay attention to me" interspersed with more thoughtful posts. What else is this, for example?

*peacebabe-ster returns to thread ..................... decides to start den renovations whilst pondering latest developments*

*sigh* remembers that INFJ's are going to try to infer 100 different meanings from a silly post.

This was simply a way of saying, "I am back, but am at a loss to collect my ideas in the moment. To anyone who's waiting on a reply, of which there are a couple I know of, here's my public announcement that I will try to post some thoughts soon."

Your guess, although possible, was only conjecture. Maybe that's what you'd probably be saying if you posted that. If you wondered about my motivation, I'm curious ... why you don't just ... ask? If NFP's have a reason, they'll generally tell you.

As for your impressions on my thought processes:

Your interpretation of my needs is incorrect. Your interpretation of my intentions is incorrect. Your impression of me is incorrect. That's as plain as I can be about it. I guess I wish you would ask me what I need instead of projecting your own vision of that on top of me all the time.

 

[Tiltyred]

This was simply a way of saying, "I am back, but am at a loss to collect my ideas in the moment. To anyone who's waiting on a reply, of which there are a couple I know of, here's my public announcement that I will try to post some thoughts soon."

I'm sure people know you are working on a post without you having to pop up and say "I'm going to have a thought! Stay tuned! As soon as I figure out what my thought is, I'm going to express it!"

The post referred to above comes across to me as having zero content. In my mind, you have not left, so there's no need to announce that you are back, or that you are going to say something at some point. We're in a conversation, so I take that for granted.

I think this is Ni/Ne again.

I can understand that this might not be a good thread if your motivation is to be liked (that gave me a chuckle), but if your motivation is to be "equal," then this would be a good thread for demonstrating that you are equal, which is what I get from you.

I see how it feels cold to you. It is cold. I think INFJ is not as feeling as INFP.

 

[Society]

 

[Tiltyred]

Your candor is appreciated.

I didn't want my ego stroked, or to be validated that I am a good person. That kind of validation is relatively meaningless to me. I already knew I did 'wrong' - I shared that story to say, "Hey, I generally do a good job meeting the needs of the people around me. But look, here's how I sucked! I don't know 100% why, so I don't understand the minutiae here, but I learned that this approach may not work best for INFJ's."

"Help me understand why" is the unspoken question. If the INFJ answer is, "Well, she is going through a divorce, and most INFJ's will find it difficult to concentrate with that kind of emotional white noise in their life. So, while processing any kind of unpleasantness, especially if it tends to affect their overall performance in other areas they'll really appreciate others who silently 'get' this, cut them a little slack, and believe that with a little support they'll be back to their normal selves in due time..." hey, I can TOTALLY accept that answer.

It's not the approach I would want or need, but hey, I will try to give you what you need too. But I won't presume to know it. I'm not a mind-reader, and I won't pretend to be, even if I think my guess might be 70 or 80% right.

My point to you in that interaction was that you did not have to be a mind reader, because she took the trouble to tell you that she was going through a divorce to begin with. She made it easy for you. I felt you didn't pay attention when she tried to keep you from having to feel you needed to read her mind.

There's something here about INFJs seeing things as a continual process where INFP seems not to see it that way at all, and every single incident has to be re-explained that seems worth paying attention to. Or if you leave a thread for a few hours, you have to pop up and announce that you intend to return to it. Even after you've made statements like "Post #X to come ..."

I apologize for completely misunderstanding you. I'm sure I do. I do feel a lot like "Am I speaking English??" as another INFJ whose name now escapes me posted earlier. I felt like it in that thread, too, and imagine your INFJ in your question also felt that way. Don't know what can be done about it.

 

[sorenx7]

Not quite as funny as your video, but it's my contribution to this intellectual discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXA7yklaANo

 

[Society]

going on with the theme

 

[PeaceBaby]

My point to you in that interaction was that you did not have to be a mind reader, because she took the trouble to tell you that she was going through a divorce to begin with. She made it easy for you. I felt you didn't pay attention when she tried to keep you from having to feel you needed to read her mind.

Thanks for that, good to have confirmation then.

There's something here about INFJs seeing things as a continual process where INFP seems not to see it that way at all, and every single incident has to be re-explained that seems worth paying attention to.

It's not that I need the incident to be re-explained, I don't think. But I agree I may not see things as a continual process, or at least not to the extent that INFJ's may. I believe this point has come up in other threads of this ilk as well, but if you were to ask me any given day, "How do you feel?" I could break it down into percentages for you of why I feel like I do today. There isn't one over-arching theme to summarize it usually - I always hold each feeling discrete from the others.

Or if you leave a thread for a few hours, you have to pop up and announce that you intend to return to it. Even after you've made statements like "Post #X to come ..."

Well, it has been a couple of days, and I am lagging in replying to a couple of promised thoughts too. So, that's just my way of letting folks know.

Don't know what can be done about it.

Me neither. But I'm working on it.

 

[Society]

But I agree I may not see things as a continual process, or at least not to the extent that INFJ's may.

U2?