[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Z Buck McFate]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], it's like I explained in the PM. Sometimes when Fi'ers ask something, it's like hearing "So this is what color I want to talk about. What does it taste like to you?" The difference in skylight's post is that she gave specific examples to go on, to help show exactly what kind of response is being sought. Otherwise, I know I have no idea what to do with it, and at least a couple other INFJs have said the same- often times it's so vague I can't even figure out how to ask what they're looking for (because I can't even tell if they're 'looking for something' vs. just venting). There have been several times on the forum when a Fi'er asks something and I have no clue what they're trying to get at.

It reminds me of when Orobas has brought up 'Fe clues' in the workplace- like, working with a Fe'er I guess it seems like there are certain 'cues' about getting things done with another person. Speaking in Ti fragments doesn't mean anything to her, it's just gobblety-gook, she wants very clear direction. I suspect it's the same thing, only in reverse.


eta: and also like I said in PM- sometimes if we're left with the question, eventually on my own (in the course of some later day) something will 'click' and I'll realize it does sorta have a taste. I want to say maybe this is a Si thing? It's like that information really isn't readily available to me, I can't pull it up on a moment's notice, but if I leave the question gestating in my mind sometimes an understanding of 'taste' will emerge on its own later. Or maybe I'll notice that to me it's really more of a 'smell'- the point here is that I can't even discuss it until it's had a chance to gestate. [And unfortunately with OA, the presumptions of what lack of response 'meant' polluted my ability to let it gestate effectively- ruminating on why the presumptions were annoying (and also why they seemed to only keep getting more and more venomous) took precedence over/replaced the initial query, I think. It's 'furniture that had to get moved out of the way first'.]

 

[Fidelia]

Skylights - yes, I find this part of the conversation absolutely helpful, because as the differences between what we see or value become clear, then it gives me something of practical value to take away to guide my future interactions. It is incredibly useful to me to have someone translate how my behaviour appears to them in terms I understand. I don't naturally know how a behaviour that seems absolutely logical to me could be misinterpreted, and so it's hard to avoid it, or to know how to offer context and additional information for the other person if I don't know where those differences lie and what they are.

I do believe it is correct though that I get hung up when those impressions are presented as conclusions, simply because in my eyes they are not accurate interpretations, if only the other person had access to all the information they need! Therefore, you saw a lot of us trying to offer more information (thinking we were helping to resolve the problem that OA was seeking to solve, because that is what we'd wish for) and it only was coming across as ignoring the issue, justifying bad behaviour or avoiding responsibility. I can't seem to leave the inaccuracies alone, because I think we are talking about different things and therefore that is why I was trying to offer a list of faults that I knew I could cop to and identified with more than those listed. I wanted to be open-minded and cooperative, but the way each point was stated just didn't reflect something that rang bells with me. Without more specifics about what you folks were seeing, I didn't know what to offer back.

I'm wondering though - do our responses seem like we are still trying to whitewash bad behaviour, or does it appear that we are sincerely trying to work with you? I know this sounds stupid to ask, but I honestly don't know how it is perceived by Ne/Fi/Te functioning people.

By the way, Glycerine and Z Buck, excellent posts!

 

[1487610420]

/re3evant

 

[Eilonwy]

This might sound more like venting, but I can't think of a better way to ask, so I apologize about that.

Answering skylights post on the "list" makes it seem INFJ's are rewarding skylights for "good" behaviour, and are not answering OA's for "bad" behaviour.

Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?

Is this is a way to try to motivate OA to conform to the way you would prefer she act, or prefer she talk? Is that what I'm seeing? Or can INFJ's explain it to me the way it's intended?

Would it help to reframe it as setting boundaries instead of reward and punishment? For example: INTJmom's thread about how one of her sons was addressing her over Christmas.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I realize that you want to mediate and make peace between people, PB, but in this case, I think what you are doing is actually widening the differences.

Well, I feel like I need to exaggerate the difference atm to be able to see more clearly where the differences are. It's not about trying to be divisive, it's more about trying to get a handle on where the boundaries are. I can't mediate anything when I can't feel all of the nuances of the object. It is challenging to just feel my way around the edges ... so thanks very much for your reply, it is helping me understand better.

It feels - I'm not saying you are, but it feels like you are - denying something that is actually a thing and not just a personal preference in approach. I appreciate the fact that you want to help, but I don't know if that is the way that is going to do it for me, at least.

No, as I've mentioned before, I do see it as something. I can appreciate that. I just need parameters around that something, what approach works best, how to approach. Sort of a do / don't list. Some guidelines stated out loud would be useful.

What I am basically hearing is that INFJs need an approach in a friendly, open way in order to enter into a dialogue that feels respectful and mutually beneficial.

If you or anyone else can simply confirm, that would be appreciated.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes for sure that is true. I think the reason it wasn't stated before is because that is so much a part of our viewpoint that it just seems like a universal recipe for getting along well (I realize that's not the case). For me, it works better when people start with what we have in common and then point out where we diverge and how it looks to them from their perspective. If it presented in the form of a statement, it sounds very final (kind of like you might hear Fe judgements seeming final), even if it is up for discussion.

Mm, yeah, the something rotten in Denmark comment was referring to recognizing that OA's comments weren't purely in the spirit of figuring out what is going on. I realize that everyone's perspective is going to be tinged with subjective elements, but by not acknowledging that there was some less than pure motives (even if there was good intent too), that frees me up from trying to prove to you that there were and that I'm still confused about what I'm being asked for. I feel that skylights did that effectively by starting from a friendly place, seeing that elements of the list had merit, but that some reframing was needed if we were going to be able to get anywhere with it. I don't think that she was discounting OA's list entirely, but her approach was such that it was much more clear to me what she was seeing and where her thinking diverged from mine.

Don't know if that's of any help, but maybe it clarifies something for you.

 

[Glycerine]

At first, with the tone of posts, it was very "emotive personal " but with the help of the INTJ and the ENFPs, it started to become more "detached impersonal (observation for exploration/curiosity's sake)". For me, when I talk about things theoretically, there is rarely an emotional personal attachment but then when there is emotion involved, it starts to feel personal.

 

[skylights]

Thank you, everyone, for the answers and additions. I am going to work on reflecting and responding. I love this huge flood of ideas! I am in N-irvana

In the meanwhile -

I'm wondering though - do our responses seem like we are still trying to whitewash bad behaviour, or does it appear that we are sincerely trying to work with you? I know this sounds stupid to ask, but I honestly don't know how it is perceived by Ne/Fi/Te functioning people.

At least to me, not at all. It feels like a floodgate of communication has opened and I am reveling in the waters.

i still don't entirely grasp how you've managed this or why its happening, and i really really want too, but this this turn of events seems fantastic to me, in both meanings of the word.

Thank you for the appreciation, Mane. It was the INFJs that explained how to communicate, though, in bits and pieces through the thread. And the INFPs provided what to communicate. All I did was gather that information and mesh it all together - and since much of it was emotive/relational, the NeFiTe process could essentially operate at maximum efficacy. The INFJs provided two critical information pieces: first, that the communication, if seeking resolution, cannot be couched in negativity (now I understand that this is because it sends a mixed message in regards to intent); second, that there is an extremely important difference between objective pronouncement (INFJs do this) and subjective impression (it seems to me that INFJs do this), and subjective impression must be indicated, as it is not an understood. I then just generated Ne possibilities based off of OA's headings to fit within the bounds of those two "rules". There doesn't need to be an INFP or INFJ sandbox; with a little finagling, everyone can play in the same one!

Now we have lots of generous information-sharing INFJs absolutely shattering into diamond dust the conception that they refuse to consider another's perception - which is wonderful! And we can begin to explore all the interesting ins and outs of INFP impressions of INFJ behaviors, and the real INFJ "secrets" behind them.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I guess then, on the flip-side, the easiest way to get past an INFJ's boundaries is to work the friendly, sincere side extremely well. An approach that doesn't set off alarm bells has the greatest advantage to infiltrate and disarm.

Is this why INFJ's have boundary issues? The alarm bells only ring occasionally? Not enough to really seem a concern? But enough to muddy things a bit?

Ironically, INFP's might set off the emotive alarm bells a lot, but it's most likely we are least likely to have any harmful agenda or negative intent.

 

[PuddleRiver]

My problem has always been never trusting it because I am waiting for evidence to unfold in order to confirm it (trying to keep an open mind) and wanting really bad to believe in the best in people but it has continually screwed me over so I am trusting my gut this time.[/QUOTE]

Well done, this is exactly what I do. My gut's usually right.

 

[Glycerine]

I will leave the actual INFJs to the discussion. I will admit that I was really bored and this thread was a welcome distraction.

 

[Fidelia]

For me, my boundary issues have more to do with:

1) Needing gut feelings to be proven.Sometimes I have felt something is not right, but don't trust that feeling until I can articulate why and have proven evidence. Being fair matters a lot to me. As I've gotten older, I've realized that if I feel that way, that feeling is rarely wrong and is there to protect me. Sometimes we subconsciously pick up on physical and emotional signals before our conscious mind catches up with what we are seeing. Now I go with it before I've received confirmation.

2) How I develop relationships and process information.Usually I start from a closed position and over time, with repeated interactions and observation and seeing what people do with less important pieces of information, I slowly form an opinion of someone's expertise, trustability, merit of ideas and so on. It takes time for this to happen. Once someone is in, they kind of have the run of my inner world, as it is quite a process. My focus is prevention and extrapolating what I can expect from the person in the future.

I think with NFPs, they start from the opposite end. Everyone is given a chance, until proven that they don't deserve it. This leaves them more open to new ideas, but also more vulnerable to being hurt.

Where my system breaks down is that sometimes the people who are in my inner circle change, show unexpected character flaws, or lie. It takes some time to really believe that someone I've grown to trust implicitly would do that to me and so I give them the benefit of the doubt while trying to figure out why I'm feeling emotional noise that unsettles me. Sometimes I'm not sure if the breakdown in communication/trust has to do with them or me, and so I have to exhaust all the possibilities on my part before accusing them of being responsible. That allows a person to have great influence (and potentially do great good or great damage, depending on who they are) with me. Because I rely on Fe for navigation and for exploring my internal world through external people, their perceptions of me can really skew my own perceptions of myself.

For this reason, I'm not going to accept just anyone's assertion that I am paranoid, selfish, unremorseful, etc, especially if they don't know me well. That would be giving a totally unknown person power to influence when I'm not at all sure whether they are trustworthy or accurate in their perceptions. Instead, I'll file what they say away, try to figure out their intentions, check it against other feedback I have gotten, consult my own feelings about it, and if I still disagree, save it to revisit because there must be some reason why they have arrived at that conclusion and I'd like to understand what it is. Maybe it's a different perspective that we both have that renders my behaviour incomprehensible. Maybe they are going through bad stuff right then in their life that colours their perspective. Maybe I just can't see the whole picture yet and will later conclude that they were right.

3) Ability to shift perspectives - I think that one of my strengths is the ability to shift perspectives easily and look at a person or situation from many different sides. This makes me less judgemental in some ways, but can also result in me losing track of what my own perspective even is. I honestly don't know sometimes which is the most accurate, useful or valid standpoint at the time because I'm able to bend things to look a myriad of different ways. Therefore, I need to rely on articulating what I see to someone outside my head and have them clarify by asking questions and reacting so that I can decide which perspectives merit more weight. For this reason, I need more than one reliable person whom I can trust, so that I have several sets of information/feedback to compare. You can also imagine why this information gathering and comparing process doesn't happen in real time and can be pretty lengthy.

4) Distrust of emotions To me, my emotions are pretty changeable and may depend on which perspective I'm looking from that moment, how I feel, how many other stressors are in my life, how tired I am, and so on. Therefore, they are no kind of guiding light for me, other than indicating that there is something there that needs some attention as soon as I can get to it. Because emotion actually jumbles up my signals, I need enough distance that I can discuss things in impersonal theoretical terms with myself, rather than personal emotional ones. That also means that when people bring strong emotions to a discussion, it mixes up my signals and makes it difficult for me to process the information quickly. I need time to cool them off into something that is more theoretical and impersonal.

5) Weird and unhealthy people like me Because I'm slow to express judgement and initially seem pretty malleable, I think a lot of people assume that I'm more sympathetic to them than I actually feel. I think I seem kind of open and in combination with not trusting the gut feeling thing, that used to be a problem. Strange people would often pick me out of a crowd to approach and sometimes I felt obliged to give them information that was unreasonable for them to have requested etc. I think a few years of busking really helped me to trust my gut and also to not feel afraid to assert myself more. I realized that if someone does something that is socially out of the ordinary in a negative way, it is then okay to respond in a manner that is also not the usual way you would respond to someone you don't know. I started to see that you can still remain pleasant, while also not leaving yourself open to unreasonable behaviour.

6) I like solving human puzzles I enjoy being around people that are not easy to figure out right away. Over time though, I've realized that part of what makes people hard to figure out is them giving mixed signals. This often is the result of a fear of vulnerability, so they give out conflicting messages. It sometimes takes me awhile to realize that I'm actually dealing with an unhealthy or unreasonable individual. I think at least in the case of romantic relationships, I've learned my lesson on that.

7) No one is all bad Even controlling or insecure people have attractive qualities. The ability to look at situations from multiple points of view is not always a good thing, as it can allow me to let people into the inner chambers of my heart that are not going to be considerate guests there. It is sometimes hard for me to distinguish which behaviours to give the most weight to.

8) Figuring out the why turns my alarm bells off. I'm not saying that I can't ever recognize that certain people should be avoided, even if I can understand the reason for them acting as they do. However, for me, what fills me with the most unsettled unsureness or even terror is simply not knowing what to expect or why someone is acting as they do. Once I figure out the why, then I have information from which to construct a course of appropriate action. As long as I still have courses of action left to try and ameliorate a situation that I'm invested in making work, I will continue trying to exhaust them. Sometimes this is long after I should have distanced myself.

edit: Not sure if any of this answers your question, PB, but hopefully somewhere, somehow it is useful.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I don't want to rain on the parade here skylights, I think you've been adding some great stuff.

And I know you're happy feeling that sweet taste of break-though. So I will send you some love in celebration too.

There doesn't need to be an INFP or INFJ sandbox; with a little finagling, everyone can play in the same one!

However, to me it seems that we might be back where we started. If I share negativity, I jeopardize the interaction. I have to pre-sort and sanitize my communication, ergo altering it. This means we don't meet in the middle and there is no other way to communicate except more on INFJ turf, as it were.

Really, I don't take issue with this. It just is what it is. I don't have problems interacting with my INFJ friends IRL as I already am considered a nice, friendly person, so I guess that's what enables our relationship to proceed. The forum is a great venue to really dig in deeper to see how a more natural voice would be accepted though. As I have mentioned in thread, I always think that there is more potential for it to feel 50 / 50 with an INFJ. Where in your approach do you see me being able to be myself? Or when? Or how? And OA's approach is just verboten. Red flags end the interaction before it can begin.

Remember, Fi for you in the second position means you see it in the most positive light (same for Fe in INFJ's). This corresponds to how I see my Ne, as the positive problem solver. I seldom see Ne's down-side, the negatives, even though they inherently exist in the function.

And, it seems to me that an Fe-dom can generally handle the negativity inherent in the Fi-dom position. We can go toe-to-toe. It's a great interaction actually, but wow it can be intense! What I mean to say is, an ENFJ will not shut down communications when there's intrusion of negative input. It's noted, yes, but it doesn't close the door. It actually ... is more of an opener sometimes.

Now we have lots of generous information-sharing INFJs absolutely shattering into diamond dust the conception that they refuse to consider another's perception - which is wonderful! And we can begin to explore all the interesting ins and outs of INFP impressions of INFJ behaviors, and the real INFJ "secrets" behind them.

I suppose the true test is if OA came back, rephrased her list in a way INFJ's can feel comfortable interacting with, and see if she gets the answers that help her process whatever it is she's processing.

Maybe if I call her she will? [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], you feel up for this?

 

[PeaceBaby]

For me, my boundary issues have more to do with:

1) Needing gut feelings to be proven.Sometimes I have felt something is not right, but don't trust that feeling until I can articulate why and have proven evidence. Being fair matters a lot to me. As I've gotten older, I've realized that if I feel that way, that feeling is rarely wrong and is there to protect me. Sometimes we subconsciously pick up on physical and emotional signals before our conscious mind catches up with what we are seeing. Now I go with it before I've received confirmation.

2) How I develop relationships and process information.Usually I start from a closed position and over time, with repeated interactions and observation and seeing what people do with less important pieces of information, I slowly form an opinion of someone's expertise, trustability, merit of ideas and so on. It takes time for this to happen. Once someone is in, they kind of have the run of my inner world, as it is quite a process. My focus is prevention and extrapolating what I can expect from the person in the future.

I think with NFPs, they start from the opposite end. Everyone is given a chance, until proven that they don't deserve it. This leaves them more open to new ideas, but also more vulnerable to being hurt.

Where my system breaks down is that sometimes the people who are in my inner circle change, show unexpected character flaws, or lie. It takes some time to really believe that someone I've grown to trust implicitly would do that to me and so I give them the benefit of the doubt while trying to figure out why I'm feeling emotional noise that unsettles me. Sometimes I'm not sure if the breakdown in communication/trust has to do with them or me, and so I have to exhaust all the possibilities on my part before accusing them of being responsible. That allows a person to have great influence (and potentially do great good or great damage, depending on who they are) with me. Because I rely on Fe for navigation and for exploring my internal world through external people, their perceptions of me can really skew my own perceptions of myself.

For this reason, I'm not going to accept just anyone's assertion that I am paranoid, selfish, unremorseful, etc, especially if they don't know me well. That would be giving a totally unknown person power to influence when I'm not at all sure whether they are trustworthy or accurate in their perceptions. Instead, I'll file what they say away, try to figure out their intentions, check it against other feedback I have gotten, consult my own feelings about it, and if I still disagree, save it to revisit because there must be some reason why they have arrived at that conclusion and I'd like to understand what it is. Maybe it's a different perspective that we both have that renders my behaviour incomprehensible. Maybe they are going through bad stuff right then in their life that colours their perspective. Maybe I just can't see the whole picture yet and will later conclude that they were right.

3) Ability to shift perspectives - I think that one of my strengths is the ability to shift perspectives easily and look at a person or situation from many different sides. This makes me less judgemental in some ways, but can also result in me losing track of what my own perspective. I honestly don't know sometimes which is the most accurate, useful or valid standpoint at the time because I'm able to bend things to look a myriad of different ways. Therefore, I need to rely on articulating what I see to someone outside my head and have them clarify by asking questions and reacting so that I can decide which perspectives merit more weight. For this reason, I need more than one reliable person whom I can trust, so that I have several sets of information/feedback to compare. You can also imagine why this information gathering and comparing process doesn't happen in real time and can be pretty lengthy.

4) Distrust of emotions To me, my emotions are pretty changeable and may depend on which perspective I'm looking from that moment, how I feel, how many other stressors are in my life, how tired I am, and so on. Therefore, they are no kind of guiding light for me, other than indicating that there is something there that needs some attention as soon as I can get to it. Because emotion actually jumbles up my signals, I need enough distance that I can discuss things in impersonal theoretical terms with myself, rather than personal emotional ones. That also means that when people bring strong emotions to a discussion, it mixes up my signals and makes it difficult for me to process the information quickly. I need time to cool them off into something that is more theoretical and impersonal.

5) Weird and unhealthy people like me Because I'm slow to express judgement and initially seem pretty malleable, I think a lot of people assume that I'm more sympathetic to them than I actually feel. I think I seem kind of open and in combination with not trusting the gut feeling thing, that used to be a problem. Strange people would often pick me out of a crowd to approach and sometimes I felt obliged to give them information that was unreasonable for them to have requested etc. I think a few years of busking really helped me to trust my gut and also to not feel afraid to assert myself more. I realized that if someone does something that is socially out of the ordinary in a negative way, it is then okay to respond in a manner that is also not the usual way you would respond to someone you don't know. I started to see that you can still remain pleasant, while also not leaving yourself open to unreasonable behaviour.

6) I like solving human puzzles I enjoy being around people that are not easy to figure out right away. Over time though, I've realized that part of what makes people hard to figure out is them giving mixed signals. This often is the result of a fear of vulnerability, so they give out conflicting messages. It sometimes takes me awhile to realize that I'm actually dealing with an unhealthy or unreasonable individual. I think at least in the case of romantic relationships, I've learned my lesson on that.

7) No one is all bad Even controlling or insecure people have attractive qualities. The ability to look at situations from multiple points of view is not always a good thing, as it can allow me to let people into the inner chambers of my heart that are not going to be considerate guests there. It is sometimes hard for me to distinguish which behaviours to give the most weight to.

8) Figuring out the why turns my alarm bells off. I'm not saying that I can't ever recognize that certain people should be avoided, even if I can understand the reason for them acting as they do. However, for me, what fills me with the most unsettled unsureness or even terror is simply not knowing what to expect or why someone is acting as they do. Once I figure out the why, then I have information from which to construct a course of appropriate action. As long as I still have courses of action left to try and ameliorate a situation that I'm invested in making work, I will continue trying to exhaust them. Sometimes this is long after I should have distanced myself.

edit: Not sure if any of this answers your question, PB, but hopefully somewhere, somehow it is useful.

Whole post quoted because whole post is awesome. Well, a lot of your posts are very helpful, but I hate full-quoting posts. But I will break my rule and will full-quote this one because I don't see anything I can truncate for brevity's sake.

'Night, I am heading back to bed.

Oh, and if any words seem hasty in my last couple of posts, I'm just trying to get in a few things before sleeping. It might not be worded quite right.

 

[Fidelia]

PB, I think maybe you are underestimating the element of trust needed that just isn't present at this point. I'm not saying that my mind couldn't ever change, but the pattern I've seen in the past doesn't give me enough hope for the future to feel invested in giving it a whirl.

It's clear that you would like to broker some kind of a fair deal between both parties that will be amicable to all. That is a commendable effort and I believe your heart is in the right place. I'm just not sure that it's a realistic hope. I can understand how this feels a little unfair to you - like you have to come over to our side before we'll talk. I'm actually not sure what I can say about that. I don't foresee ever being able to react well to the unvarnished approach.

Being yourself is fine. I think that an inherent assumption of mine is that everyone must be free to be who they are. However, from my POV, the onus is on the individual to deal with whatever kind of reception they get and adjust their approach to fit their ultimate goals. If it matters to you primarily to understand, then you have to take on a method of communication that is unfamiliar. If you want primarily to be who you are, then you don't have to adjust as much.

I've spent most of my life not expressing much that is controversial, because I simply am not prepared to deal with the blowback. As a result, I've stayed safe, but people didn't feel strongly one way or the other about me. As I've been more open, I've found more people dislike and more people like me and I'm not going to be able to make everyone who dislikes me change their mind on that. Perhaps we (not you and me kind of we!) just aren't compatible people to discuss a lot with each other.

 

[Southern Kross]

PeaceBaby, it's like I explained in the PM. Sometimes when Fi'ers ask something, it's like hearing "So this is what color I want to talk about. What does it taste like to you?" The difference in skylight's post is that she gave specific examples to go on, to help show exactly what kind of response is being sought. Otherwise, I know I have no idea what to do with it, and at least a couple other INFJs have said the same- often times it's so vague I can't even figure out how to ask what they're looking for (because I can't even tell if they're 'looking for something' vs. just venting). There have been several times on the forum when a Fi'er asks something and I have no clue what they're trying to get at.

It reminds me of when Orobas has brought up 'Fe clues' in the workplace- like, working with a Fe'er I guess it seems like there are certain 'cues' about getting things done with another person. Speaking in Ti fragments doesn't mean anything to her, it's just gobblety-gook, she wants very clear direction. I suspect it's the same thing, only in reverse.


eta: and also like I said in PM- sometimes if we're left with the question, eventually on my own (in the course of some later day) something will 'click' and I'll realize it does sorta have a taste. I want to say maybe this is a Si thing? It's like that information really isn't readily available to me, I can't pull it up on a moment's notice, but if I leave the question gestating in my mind sometimes an understanding of 'taste' will emerge on its own later. Or maybe I'll notice that to me it's really more of a 'smell'- the point here is that I can't even discuss it until it's had a chance to gestate. [And unfortunately with OA, the presumptions of what lack of response 'meant' polluted my ability to let it gestate effectively- ruminating on why the presumptions were annoying (and also why they seemed to only keep getting more and more venomous) took precedence over/replaced the initial query, I think. It's 'furniture that had to get moved out of the way first'.]

Skylights - yes, I find this part of the conversation absolutely helpful, because as the differences between what we see or value become clear, then it gives me something of practical value to take away to guide my future interactions. It is incredibly useful to me to have someone translate how my behaviour appears to them in terms I understand. I don't naturally know how a behaviour that seems absolutely logical to me could be misinterpreted, and so it's hard to avoid it, or to know how to offer context and additional information for the other person if I don't know where those differences lie and what they are.

I do believe it is correct though that I get hung up when those impressions are presented as conclusions, simply because in my eyes they are not accurate interpretations, if only the other person had access to all the information they need! Therefore, you saw a lot of us trying to offer more information (thinking we were helping to resolve the problem that OA was seeking to solve, because that is what we'd wish for) and it only was coming across as ignoring the issue, justifying bad behaviour or avoiding responsibility. I can't seem to leave the inaccuracies alone, because I think we are talking about different things and therefore that is why I was trying to offer a list of faults that I knew I could cop to and identified with more than those listed. I wanted to be open-minded and cooperative, but the way each point was stated just didn't reflect something that rang bells with me. Without more specifics about what you folks were seeing, I didn't know what to offer back.

I'm wondering though - do our responses seem like we are still trying to whitewash bad behaviour, or does it appear that we are sincerely trying to work with you? I know this sounds stupid to ask, but I honestly don't know how it is perceived by Ne/Fi/Te functioning people.

Thank you so much for this, guys.

I finally feel like we're getting through to one another. I think more than anything what I take away from this is that we need to find a way to convey our confusion, gaps in understanding, and frustrations to one another in a way that the other comprehends, rather than reach for the nearest answer/reason that appears to half-fit.

And, Z buck, I think the "flavour" thing your are talking about is Fi, not Si.

Fidelia (and Z Buck), you sound like you're explaining yourself, while graciously admitting to those gaps in your understanding and to the possibility of more than one reading of things. I could not ask for much more. I certainly appreciate and respect the efforts being made after the negative feelings and arguments that transpired.

 

[Society]

If it matters to you primarily to understand, then you have to take on a method of communication that is unfamiliar. If you want primarily to be who you are, then you don't have to adjust as much.

hmm, this is odd: wouldn't it be safe to assume that as the least likely type to know anyone of their own type, or even of their own function dominance, you would have to become rather adapt at taking on methods of communication that are unfamiliar to you? communicating in "someone else's mental turf", so to speak?

i'm not saying it's right to expect that of you, rather that it seems to me like the natural reaction of being in a minority; i can say that for my own example, as the only TiFe user growing up within an immediate family of FiTe users (INTJ father ENFP mother and ISFP sister), i know that it shaped my communication habits a great deal.

isn't it likely that an INFJ will experience that in almost every single aspect with, well... everyone?

 

[Tiltyred]

I believe she was speaking of any type communicating with any type -- that your interaction style will be different depending on whether your aim is to understand, or your aim is to express your own uniqueness.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It's clear that you would like to broker some kind of a fair deal between both parties that will be amicable to all. That is a commendable effort and I believe your heart is in the right place. I'm just not sure that it's a realistic hope. I can understand how this feels a little unfair to you - like you have to come over to our side before we'll talk. I'm actually not sure what I can say about that. I don't foresee ever being able to react well to the unvarnished approach.

Yes, that's a good and fair summary of where I am coming from. In a way it's kind of cool that it verifies my initial impressions and my "real life" experiences. I need to adjust my communication and there's no real way around it. I don't think anyone here can say I haven't tried lol. Here in this unique venue, on the forum, I was hoping to see if explaining the inner workings of my process, providing translation services in the voice of my process and explaining my good intent during interaction would be enough to "bridge the gap", to bring us closer to the middle.

It appears that it is not enough. And hey, it's ok, I've said that above too, and I mean it. Maybe some other INFP will broker that deal. It would be something to see.

I do wish there was a way for you to accommodate us too, and hey I'm an optimist, it could happen! After all, this conversation takes place during just a brief snapshot in time. Maybe when we're both 80 years old is when it happens lol.

At least I can feel more clear that there is this gap in your process. I have a better understanding of why it's there, where it is exactly and have taken away some better strategies for how to accommodate it. I can make a choice to accept it or not, and at least I can understand why certain actions produce certain results rather than just being shut down in communication.

Tilty's spaghetti metaphor and Z's "throwing furniture in my path" metaphor were illustrative of the perspective too and that was useful to me. However, contained within those metaphors was a kind of belief that INFP's are being deliberately problematic. I would only ask that opinions stay open on the matter, even with OA. All of us are on a journey, after all, trying to figure things out as we go, and just because OA appears "stuck" doesn't mean she's stuck there.

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Anyhow, with that I guess I'm going to slowly back out of this convo, I will check for any replies and answer stuff but I think I've pretty much taken this one as far as I can atm. to all and thanks for the insights.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Ironically, INFP's might set off the emotive alarm bells a lot, but it's most likely we are least likely to have any harmful agenda or negative intent.

Tilty's spaghetti metaphor and Z's "throwing furniture in my path" metaphor were illustrative of the perspective too and that was useful to me. However, contained within those metaphors was a kind of belief that INFP's are being deliberately problematic. I would only ask that opinions stay open on the matter, even with OA. All of us are on a journey, after all, trying to figure things out as we go, and just because OA appears "stuck" doesn't mean she's stuck there.

Is it.....hard for Fi'ers to imagine getting stifled by 'white noise' without necessarily doubting someone else's intentions? The way this keeps coming back to ‘good intentions’- as if, without exception “having furniture thrown in my path = other person does not have good intentions”- is puzzling to me. Someone can have the best of intentions and still have a message laden with the kinds of mixed signals that stop us in our tracks and prevent us from moving forward. We’ve stated this outright many times, yet it keeps coming back up. It really is kind of baffling to me how these seem inexorably linked to Fi’ers. It seems to me that misunderstandings and/or hurt feelings are the product of actual intention to misunderstand or hurt feelings far less often than not in life, so why is there so clearly an 'implied' connection to Fi'ers?

This isn't directed at PB- especially if she wants to back out of the thread- just anyone who can answer. Even in the beginning, OA kept equating "something about this does not make sense" with "I doubt your sincerity". What's up with that?