Um, what a thread ... very interesting discussion here.
@<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=15291" target="_blank">Mane</a> - Thanks for your contribution. I think you really pinpointed the major theme in all of my complaints concerning INFJs - the idea of a lack of remorse. I worded it as not taking responsibility or blame, but "lack of remorse" is much better. I think too, you articulated the point of what I was doing clearly; certainly not trying to make INFJs looks bad or demand some explanation/apology from them for someone else's behavior.
I honestly want(ed) to be proven wrong in a sense. To hear an INFJ relate an experience where they hurt someone or committed a wrong, fully saw their own hand in it, felt deep remorse & regret, and then made restitution and/or significant changes, would be wonderful. But I don't think it's going to happen. Most stories here will make them look good; I fully expected
that, as I noted there tends to be a "victim" spin, being "guilty" of being too nice & justifying everything "not nice" because of it.
The frustation comes when things unfolded just as I suspected.... because I really want(ed) to believe that INFJs aren't like the many I've encountered. Being
told I'm wrong & that they just don't relate to my list or flaws in Ni descriptions doesn't say much to me. I just continue to see people who feel they have nothing to be remorseful over; and I find that impossible in any human, as everyone has been dead wrong in an awful way at some point.
And I certainly distinguish such "remorse" from being "sorry", as I go into at the bottom...
So @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7842" target="_blank">Z Buck McFate</a> I very much
anticipated this kind of response or a "mess"; as I said before, I only
hoped it would go differently because I wanted to see humility & remorse in INFJs. I'm sure some will read this thread & find INFJs to be polite and contained in their demeanor & come away with the impression that they are "victims" and I am the villain. But a pretty package of politeness doesn't necessarily equal someone who has & expresses the kind of deep remorse Mane speaks of. I understand not wanting to share such experiences, but at this point, I can't take someone's word for it when I have too much other data which says otherwise. I really wanted something to throw a wrench into the pattern that has emerged for me; not to hear an admittance of being a nasty person (which certainly would only confirm the patten), but to witness an INFJ person able to see & regret when they've done
bad things & there is
no one else to blame (like all people will do, however healthy or nice otherwise).
INFJs feel remorse, as do INTJs. But the way to convince Ni-doms that remorse is a valid path is not via tertiary Si rules. Remember that Ni-doms have a weird take on reality, according to most folks. We see things in terms of cause and effect (not that other types don't see cause and effect, but cause-and-effect has a primacy in Ni-thinking). If we don't believe that there was any way that we could have caused (or possibly known we could be a cause) of something bad, Ni doms don't feel regret in such instances: events simply
had to unfold that way, due to cause and effect, even if we had unknowingly played a role in an unfortunate result. This isn't a denial of responsibility so much as a way of looking at the world.
It does point out an area of learning for Ni-doms. Namely, we need to understand that lack of intention is insufficient to deny responsibility, that even though something is not (in our own eyes) our
fault, it still may be our responsibility. That while we may not be a proximate cause, we must at least admit negligence. Ni-doms are particularly bad at admitting negligence. That is to say, admitting that we need to be more aware (inferior Se!!!!). We focus and try to do our best to keep track of everything, but we're human and we mess up. This applies to both INFJs and INTJs, alike.
This makes a lot of sense, and sorts out a lot of confusing nuances.
I dislike bringing ‘type’ too heavily into these things because often it seems to me like people are contorting their experience to fit in the box rather than actually finding a bona fide ‘type’ thing going on- but I really do think a lot is being lost in translation here. And I think this helps pinpoint it. With the usual ‘I can’t speak for all INFJs’ disclaimer, I think I can say that we typically find talking about remorse to be an empty thing. It certainly helps to say “I’m sorryâ€- but more than anything else, my opinion of whether someone else feels remorse is formed by other indications. Like the old saying goes ‘sorry is easy to say’, I don’t trust words as much as I trust other indications and I personally find drawn out explanations of remorse can look and feel contrived (to me). Someone saying “I’m sorry I ate your last popsicle without asking†doesn’t mean anywhere near as much to me as that person not doing it in the future- or even better, if they learned to never ‘use up the last of anything without asking first’…..the deeper the ‘roots’ of that lesson spread, the more I believe they actually ‘got’ it. I’ve used a ridiculously innocuous example, but the underlying principle applies. I show it in other ways because I watch for it in other ways, and I just don’t work those details out aloud. I absolutely feel remorse though. I don’t like telling stories about it because that just feels empty. The only way to know I’m telling the truth is to know me and to have experienced it in action. I suspect this is relatively common for ‘us’ (INFJs), and maybe we take for granted that others go by the same indications (when that isn’t the case).
I apologize if I’ve been harsh, my language gets harsh when I feel like my back is somehow against the wall and I don’t clearly understand why- my single only priority becomes figuring out what the problem is, and I can lose sight of my tone. It can become a frantic priority, I become singularly focused on figuring out what is going on. I can understand the “Why does it matter if someone has this opinion? If it isn’t true, then why get wound up?†criticism- but the thing is, I strongly suspect we use the judgment of others to navigate our external environment more than others do- I think that is what Fe is, it helps us define Se as a sort of reality check (because our direct link to Se is so weak). [eta: It's not that we mistake outside judgment for our own- we just use it more than NFPs, I believe.] When something comes up that doesn’t make sense (and especially if it keeps coming up), it’s troubling, and it becomes more and more troubling each time it comes up.
I do suspect it’s going to take a third person account, though, because I *suspect* it just isn’t INFJ style to give emotive accounts of something like that. It makes me feel kinda slimy and contrived just thinking about it.
It's ironic, but I suspect I might have an advantage here as an INTJ. To me, emotions are those silly things that I need to express in order for other people who believe in emotions to get the damn point. It is
immensely helpful to just admit fault/responsibility - even if it is definitely neither one's fault or responsibility - because it quickly soothes ruffled feathers and lets us get back to important matters. An ENTJ of my acquaintance once said, "Guilt is a useless emotion," and I've heard the same expressed by other xNTJs since then. But in the end it isn't about guilt. It's about being willing to help out and carry the load, and for many people, expressing that guilt/remorse is necessary in order to make clear that you're going to be there for them when they need it, that you'll go out of your way, even when it isn't your responsibility or your fault, to make things right.
FWIW, I think OA was on to something when she pointed to Ni as being some of the issue for her. I think that causes more issues that I've given it credit for in the past.
I've an ENFP gf. (You know who.) I've an ESFJ ex-wife. Trust me, it's Ni. It is
not Fi vs Fe.
Oh yeah - I also wanted to say that what Tiltyred said really resonated with me. She was talking about the impending death of her mother and working through all of the feelings, foreseeing what life will be like etc etc ahead of time and that by doing so, she will be calm when the very worst happens.
I think this causes a lot of trouble for Ni users at times. Not only are you going through something big alone, but people think you are crazy for feeling something that isn't even happening, yet is very real.
Maybe the last two paragraphs are a bit of a rabbit trail, but I feel like there's something in that thought that borders on the something related to the disconnect we have just experienced. I'm wondering if Ni's preventative/future focus means that we seem overly guarded and closed until we have kind of pre-experienced them (even if only in our minds) and that is a little crazy feeling and frustrating to Ne?
There is much truth to this. Ni's theme song should be "Anticipation":
To bring this back on topic, this whole thing is so complicated because it requires taking subjective interpretations that can never really be proven as accurate. We have a problem of intention vs. interpretation too, because both are important.
I have known people that say things I find offensive things and then when I object, they deny they were being so. And this is the sort of thing I imagine @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6561" target="_blank">OrangeAppled</a> and @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=15291" target="_blank">Mane</a> were getting at. There are some people that will deny any wrongdoing for a whole list of reasons, including accusing the other person of being the source of the problem by failing to understand. They will endlessly resist and refuse to accept any degree of blame. It's entirely possible that that person did mean well, but they must also accept the validity of the response to their mode of expression. I've also been that person saying things others misinterpret and know how distressing it can be. You want to explain how they've got it wrong but there's a point where the content and the objective become irrelevant and the effect takes precedence. I have had this problem with Ni-users in the past (again I don't know enough INFJs to speak about them), where they refuse to admit a problem exists, let alone express regret over contributing it. They continually argue that it's misinterpretation. To them it seems, admitting blame (in hurting the other person) is tantamount to admitting to having negative intentions in the first place. The added problem is when the Ni-user persists in explaining him/herself but the other person hears only justification and takes offence at the continued lack of remorse. What the Ni user doesn't realise is the other person doesn't care about whether it was a miscommunication or not, because the offence exists regardless. This is where I think "remorse" might not entirely get at the point. It is a failure to recognise wrongdoing altogether and this is what is most frustrating. Perhaps this particularly aggravates a INFP because it offends their very sense of justice and truth. It would be easier to come to terms with someone does wrong and knows it, yet doesn't care, than someone who continually denies wrongdoing and insists people misunderstand them. I certainly find such people extremely aggravating and in turn become more insistent that they see they're wrong. I just can't let the issue go until I feel some degree of validation of my 'truth'. Of course this then escalates out of control until we're both incredibly enraged and bitterly dissatisfied.
I wouldn't go so far as to say Ni-users never admit guilt, or even that most fail to, but some can be so unbearably stubborn in this regard.
I think it isn't about "admitting guilt" so much as the understanding of cause-and-effect is different, as I mention earlier in this post. It isn't stubbornness so much as "your worldview and my worldview don't jibe" issue. If it were easier to translate over the Si<=>Ni divide, I dare say it wouldn't appear to be so stubborn.
well, it seems like we're negotiating the pragmatics but also the sense of justice at the same time. we're calling behaviors the "Fi playground" and it's difficult to see why you see this as the Fi way rather than as a negative behavior. this is the crux, right? going back and forth between the cases made against infj or against infp? that we both think the other side has behaved unjustly, and we're deciding whether we can find that acceptable as a "typological difference" or whether we can actually build a consensus that allows us to not only validate the other's perspective but also compromise, to find conditions that we both can find mutually acceptable in a way that feels balanced to both parties.
I suspect it's Si vs Ni, not Fi vs Fe. INTJs and INTPs have similar issues.
i wonder if adding intjs and perhaps a few more enfps
And start another INTJ/ENFP mutual admiration thread?
would help provide more context to see how the functional and egoic differentiation really overlap. perhaps we just have such strict notions of rights and responsibilities that we miss how we relate to each other in the big picture. we get caught up in a way of registering value rather than in recognizing what we can contribute to value questions that are beyond what we think they are. or perhaps it's the balancing between the big picture and the immediate details that is exactly the problem.
I do believe INFJs and INFPs have very different means of establishing value. The problem isn't having
different values so much as it can be difficult to communicate the
basis of the values. INFJ values have an Ni-Ti basis, while INFP values have an Fi-Si basis. (I exclude the extroverted functions in part because the extroverted functions are more inherently "cooperative" while the introverted functions are more associated with traits that other types - and even the same type - regard as "stubborn.")
I would say, "With Fi, I will do the right thing no matter the consequences to myself or to the group."
This makes sense to me, but when I look at the INTP as an analogue of the INFP, I can see state's perspective, too. Fi and Ti doms seem to forget that their personal judgment, right or wrong, is highly subjective, and likewise they tend to decline discussing the reasons why for the judgment (in a way that can be openly debated in "extroverted function" terms).
But how can you place Fi within a larger context when it seems from where I sit that it's perfectly invisible to most INFJ's? To me, when Fe says, "I don't understand this", it's tantamount to saying it's not real, not correct. After all, that's what Te does within that realm. If my husband can't understand why I'm upset for example, he can't sympathize. Fe feels no different to me in this regard. I don't need to agree with someone to empathize? I don't need to really understand the why? Somehow, this is the province of Fi.
Actually, to me, if someone says "I don't understand this", then I have a means of connection - bridge the gap of understanding. Where I see the ball getting dropped is that one side or the other assumes, "I
do understand this," and therefore the other side is wrong.
Have you seen what's happened in the past when I personally have shared my stories?
Generally, the INFJ's point out what
I did wrong or they infer stuff that wasn't even divulged in my story to tell me what I should have done to make it right. It's practically assumed I was in error right off the hop. Then I have to convince the thread that nope, I wasn't an emo dolt, I wasn't insensitive, I was politically correct, I did try other approaches yadda yadda yadda.
And I'm an so-dom who is wired to really care about this stuff. So, respectfully, this is
not going to be a useful approach for INFP's imho.
Yeah, that's the usual progression of the Epic Rap battles of Fe vs Fi.
