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  1. #61
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    But, suchirony wasn't arguing from a "rights" basis. She specifically pointed out that she's opposed to the majority of suicides.

    Also, "living death" is just a matter of perception and has nothing to do with values and rights.
    Rights also have a grounding in what actually *can* be controlled in society. That why we don't revoke the right to think about murder, if it were even possible to do we'd try it. Suicide is not something that can be controlled.

  2. #62
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    "Nothing to do" with values? It's not a perception, it's an assessment of a perception and as such is based on values. What one person sees as a "living death," people like Joni Erickson Tada (for example) saw as an opportunity for life. It's entirely based on values. Another great example: Terri Schiavo in Florida, where clinically she was a mindless vegetable by the analyses of various doctors but to others she was still alive and had a valuable life in their eyes... ALL based on one's values and what data was weighted more than other data.
    My point was that "a living death" is still objectively a life and it behooves society to not put subjective value on any life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Rights also have a grounding in what actually *can* be controlled in society. That why we don't revoke the right to think about murder, if it were even possible to do we'd try it. Suicide is not something that can be controlled.
    Assisted suicide can be punished and deterred.
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
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  3. #63
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Assisted suicide can be punished and deterred.
    True, but that is a different issue. Even if you do believe people have a right to commit suicide, you can be against assisted suicide for other reasons.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    My point was that "a living death" is still objectively a life and it behooves society to not put subjective value on any life.
    We're not talking about "society." We are talking about individuals making decisions about their individual lives without interference by a society placing a subjective value on life by imposing their will upon the individual. What you describe still is imposing your life value on another person.


    Assisted suicide can be punished and deterred.
    It can be, and has been, but in some situations just isn't going to get much play. I also suspect that conservative elements that might be more "pro-life" in some situations (like abortion) might be more pro-choice in situations where a spouse is inevitably dying, in horrible pain, from cancer, and they don't want to use all their life savings uselessly and have nothing for the kids (as an example)... because at that point, the government is infringing on their freedom as informed adults to make decisions about their own lives.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #65
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    I wouldnt commit suicide, I'd not assist anyone else to.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  6. #66
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    True, but that is another issue than suicide. Even if you do believe people have a right to commit suicide, you can be against assisted suicide for other reasons.
    I don't think people have a right to suicide because I don't believe in absolute human autonomy. However, I do think that suicide, in and of itself, is outside the jurisdiction of the state.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't think people have a right to suicide because I don't believe in absolute human autonomy. However, I do think that suicide, in and of itself, is outside the jurisdiction of the state.
    I suppose my position is that I don't feel strongly enough to form a judgment on something that is entirely out of my practical control. I could use the notion of assisted suicide to ferret out a judgment, but I'm concerned about the idea of insitutionalizing death by action... by inaction can be sticky enough as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    We're not talking about "society." We are talking about individuals making decisions about their individual lives without interference by a society placing a subjective value on life by imposing their will upon the individual. What you describe still is imposing your life value on another person.
    I'm not advocating for any laws against suicide so I'm not advocating "imposing my will" in this area.

    I am supporting a culture of life in society.

    Do you not believe life has a consistent and absolute value?




    It can be, and has been, but in some situations just isn't going to get much play. I also suspect that conservative elements that might be more "pro-life" in some situations (like abortion) might be more pro-choice in situations where a spouse is inevitably dying, in horrible pain, from cancer, and they don't want to use all their life savings uselessly and have nothing for the kids (as an example)... because at that point, the government is infringing on their freedom as informed adults to make decisions about their own lives.
    Such people are allowing the worst of feelings to control their opinions and have abandoned reason. Also, they (if they go through with it) miss the tremendous opportunity to be blessed by and bless someone who is suffering and headed towards death. I speak from experience.
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  9. #69
    Knows your not ENFP Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    So, NF's: do you think I should be one of you?
    Based on what you have presented in this thread thus far, including your essay on 'why suicide is illogical', I personally wouldn't rule-out 'Feeler' yet. NF maybe. I haven't seen anything that stands-out to me as being distinctly NF (imo)...but 'Feeler' could probably stand some further consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I'm not advocating for any laws against suicide so I'm not advocating "imposing my will" in this area.

    I am supporting a culture of life in society.

    Do you not believe life has a consistent and absolute value?
    I believe there's a difference between a machine that is operating in the moment versus a life that one can live fully and fully invest in.

    If I didn't, I'd condone slavery (for example). I choose to believe for myself that people are more than machines and believe that our choice to live defines our lives -- and I'm not sure why "going through the motions of life" is better than death, if one isn't living.

    Are you someone who enjoyed the movie Braveheart? It doesn't sound like you would, if you can't see my point.

    As far as your comment goes, if you believe life has a "consistent and absolute value," then can you please quantify for us in a consistent and absolute way what that value is?

    Such people are allowing the worst of feelings to control their opinions and have abandoned reason. Also, they (if they go through with it) miss the tremendous opportunity to be blessed by and bless someone who is suffering and headed towards death. I speak from experience.
    I'm glad you feel competent enough to make that decision for them just because it happened to work for you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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