• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NF] NFs - does your insight into people hinder your relationships?

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think NFJs in particular have a certain sensitivity to cues that suggest some 'why'; it’ll seem ‘clear’ why someone said or did something- and it even takes a little effort to back up and separate the ‘why’ (the instant impression that pops into our head) from what’s actually in front of us. I think many of us learn to try to disregard it or pencil it in as a very tentative possibility instead of reacting to it directly though because it’s rather presumptuous- as fid pointed out, a great deal of it is simply making sense of others' actions by attaching what it would mean if we did it ourselves, and while that is *somewhat* reliable it isn’t anywhere near fool-proof. But my point is, I think NFJs are flooded with 'whys' in a way that others aren't. It’s important to take responsibility for it and clear up the possibilities we are flooded with, but it’s not really a choice to see ‘whys’ all over the place. [With NFPs, sensitivity tends to center more around the 'whats'.]

As an example (not of me, but of my INFJ son reading into things): when my son was learning to drive a couple of years ago, he had a hard time focusing on driving because of cues going on in the car. I was grabbing the door handle and/or that roof handle thingie when he turned corners to brace myself- not hard, but just enough that he noticed and it made him anxious and he kept asking me to stop doing it. I explained he was doing a great job with turning corners, and that I wasn’t holding onto the door more than I usually do at corners- it was just that he was never in the front seat with me before so he never noticed- but he still had a hard time with it and kept reacting as though I was actually chiding him with “Slow down, your turning too fast!” After a couple of hours he got used to it and was able to tune it out- I think it became believable to him when I consistently held onto the handles every single time he turned, no matter how slowly he went- but at first, seeing this out of the corner of his eye was kinda the same as me actually saying something to him (and it was hard for him to immediately believe otherwise when I directly told him he was good at turning corners because the cues strongly suggested the contrary).

So anyway, this sensitivity to cues is a hindrance in relationships sometimes because it puts a lot of restrictions on who I can form genuine relationships with/who I can feel comfortable around. And it’s why- as fid has said so many times- it’s incredibly important that I be able to ask people and clear up possibilities about those cues because it’s agitating to feel like there’s an elephant in the room that I’m not allowed to ask about or that I have to make sense of on my own- it feels disrespectful and presumptuous to do that. It's clearly there to me and I don't like defining it all by myself. When I sense certain topics are invasive to someone, or that it’s agitating to bring them up, I have to keep them at a distance to minimize this automatic urge to make sense of the pieces- the more I distance someone, the more I can leave those ‘whys’ open-ended and make no presumptions about them. But then I really do have to keep them at a distance or the ‘white noise’ it creates gets too distracting. Like with my sister (who is either ISTP or ISTJ, I think), she does not want to discuss a lot of things and gets angry at me for even trying to clear things up- so I have to shut off caring about a lot of things that I don't like being indifferent about.....but I seriously can't handle someone being very important to me while not being able to clear up the things that occur to me. It’s kind of like the game Tetris- where the pieces fall and I have to decide what to do with them, where to put them based on what makes sense/where they ‘fit’- and if I can’t directly ask a person about it when a piece looks like it doesn’t fit anywhere, or if that person routinely tells me something that doesn’t make sense or gets angry that I’m even asking- I have to avoid the person because it’s just too confusing to deal with them. I can't stop the pieces from coming simply because they other person doesn't want me to acknowledge they're there.



with my ENFJ best friend, I'm kind of off-put sometimes by the way she is always "investigating" everyone... like everyone is always a problem open for her to solve and that she can figure them out. It seems kind of belittling. The way fidelia explains it as needing to understand so you can decide how to behave in response makes sense... I think sometimes my ENFJ gets a little lost in the "game" of it, though, and loses some empathy in the process (just as I, admittedly, can get lost in the "game" of getting on others' emotional level, and encourage them to place more trust in me than they probably should).

I’m sure I have this affect on people too, sometimes. I wouldn’t even say it’s that I need to understand in order to decide how to behave in response so much as it’s about making sense of the stories that flood my awareness. I mean, I guess it is about ‘understanding so that I can decide how to behave’, but only in the sense that it’s my primary means of navigating the external world and it’s like I’m flying blind without it. I don’t actively choose to go looking for pieces to make sense of though- I have to make sense of the pieces that are appearing on their own. And so asking a lot of questions is actually my attempt at being respectful and making sure the intuitive leaps of my mind are sensible to others as well. I do often pick up on the cues though that someone else sees it as being ‘too much’ (that they don’t understand the need to bounce it off others) so I try to keep it limited to the people who understand why I need to do it. [I'm not discounting the possibility that skylight's friend really is just being callous- I'm just saying I probably come across that way too myself at times.]

I have to say that I've never bought into the idea that some people don't like INFJs because we're too insightful. I've heard this quite a bit and it seems like a really arrogant approach.

JivinJeffJones said:
I think if your insights into people cause them to shut down then you're probably doing it wrong. A bit more insight into people might help with that. ;)

bologna said:
I'll clarify, here: paying attention isn't itself insight--but it's necessary to pay attention to what life throws at you in order to gain or refine insight. That is, it's a matter of taking in information and also processing it correctly.


All this^, an absolutely essential aspect of ‘insight’ is accepting and taking responsibility for the extent to which interpretation of the cues could be wrong.
 

Starry

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
I have realized over the last 6 pages of replies that I probably did not communicate myself completely clearly. This has been a progression of understanding over my lifetime. When I was young, I didn't understand people well enough to judge when I should say something & when I shouldn't. Experience has taught me how to behave in many circumstances. There are still those that surprise me tho.

As I have hopefully clarified, I see pieces without context sometimes...or without enough context...and through the course of conversation, they become aware that I've seen. Not necessarily because I've blurted out my observation, but perhaps from the context of a question or something I say.

I don't think it's a magical ability, but it is an ability. There are just times that I happen upon things that were supposed to be camouflaged and I don't immediately realize that there was supposed to be camouflage. The "oops!" side of NF interpersonal relations, if you will. They're opportunities for learning, but sometimes those opportunities come at a cost when people freak out that you've inadvertently exposed something.

Yah see...I don't see it as an 'ability' (magical or otherwise). I see it as an interest.

And as far as I'm concerned JivinJeffJones wins the thread with this piece of solid gold...
I think if your insights into people cause them to shut down then you're probably doing it wrong. A bit more insight into people might help with that. ;)

^^^I mean, in the end that's what this is about.

EDIT: haha...I just saw Z Buck quoted this same JJJ quote. Now I'll go back and read her post.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Sometimes I believe I see so deep into a person, that I don't even try to start one.
 

Starry

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
Sometimes I believe I see so deep into a person, that I don't even try to start one.

Start one what? (I love ENFPs so much I just had to say it).


EDIT - Writing that bit about loving ENFPs may have made it seem like I understood what you were saying [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]...but I didn't. That first part is a serious question. I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
No, I said I don't immediately realize that what I've seen is something that the person does not wish to have seen. What I see is not all-encompassing. I don't see all the context, the entirety of the emotion surrounding that piece, or why they may be in denial/stuffing said piece.

And there is no way to predict how someone will react to having that item seen. Some people are horrified & erect a wall, some are tentative & wish to discuss further, everyone is different. And it takes time to see how. It's like if you see food in someone's teeth. Most people don't want that seen, but you did. Now what? Do you tell them? Do you ignore it? Will they be mad if you do/don't say something? This is a vastly over-simplified example, but it helps to illustrate my point.

I also never said I was "special" and could do things no one else can do. Clearly that is not true. I don't see things because I'm looking for them, either. They're just there. It's a culmination of what is said, how it is said, what is not said. I cannot unsee them, either. It just is. You know, the whole iNtuitive thing.

And reaching a wall? Provides tremendous insight. Walls are erected to protect something, which is only necessary if someone wants to protect it. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people don't say, what they want to protect or hide.

And I am saying part of the insight is knowing that the person doesn't want it to be seen. Insight is something that provides knowledge into that person, something deep into what they are fundamentally and with that comes the idea that this carries an importance; which, means you don't have the mistake of telling them something about themselves accidentally causing them build to "walls".

I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.

You didn't say you were special, but you asked if NF's have this problem. So either you are special or the group is special, but if the group is special and your in the group then you are special, too. So in a way your justifying your special-ness.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Insight is something that provides knowledge into that person, something deep into what they are fundamentally and with that comes the idea that this carries an importance; which, means you don't have the mistake of telling them something about themselves accidentally causing them build to "walls".

Yeah, I can see this and think I can agree. Truly knowing someone / having a good read on them, or sense of who they are, to me would mean you'd also sense/know how someone would respond to x, y, or z. So you know that your saying one thing could easily cause them to clam up. :yes:

I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.

I think there are a huge number of reasons for why a person might put up a 'wall', or at the very least, have no interest in being more forthcoming. It's definitely not just because a sensitive spot was touched.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Start one what? (I love ENFPs so much I just had to say it).


EDIT - Writing that bit about loving ENFPs may have made it seem like I understood what you were saying [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]...but I didn't. That first part is a serious question. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I kind of like the abiguity of the floating answer. But by one, I meant start a relationship. :D
 
A

Anew Leaf

Guest
I was told that my insights serve me well but to be careful for they could be made to serve the emperor.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.

Walls are a protection mechanism. It means there could be more, but there also could be nothing.

Imagine someone building a crappy looking wall to give the impression that inside has nothing to really protect. Also imagine someone spending all there money on this fancy wall just for image, yet they have nothing really behind it. You also have those that build a wall to match what is behind it because they value the entire package.

Walls are meant to protect, it says nothing about what is being protected.
 
A

Anew Leaf

Guest
I realize I actually have a serious answer for this thread.

I think there are several things that can "scare people" with me. The first is how easily people find it to open up to me. The second has to do with how easily I can see into someone's inner realm.

The first one is partly by design and mainly be default. I don't like defining myself or anyone else. I don't like pushing people to open up to me. On rare occasions I may prod gently at someone with an insistence that I am available as a listener to their problems. Usually in cases like that, my concern for their wellbeing trumps my desire to not be pushy.

The second I tend to curb for the most part. Just because I see something in someone doesn't mean I am going to tell them. For one, the first rule in anything is never show your cards, and for second, I could be wrong and need more information to draw a definitive conclusion.

This is just me. I don't believe that just because I have the NF card that that automatically makes me a great reader of humanity's emotions. I think every type has it's own insight potential. This is simply how I operate under the flag of "bunE".

Suffice to say, just because I don't let you know that I have you figured out... doesn't mean I don't. :biggrin:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Walls are a protection mechanism. It means there could be more, but there also could be nothing.

Imagine someone building a crappy looking wall to give the impression that inside has nothing to really protect. Also imagine someone spending all there money on this fancy wall just for image, yet they have nothing really behind it. You also have those that build a wall to match what is behind it because they value the entire package.

Walls are meant to protect, it says nothing about what is being protected.

If walls are protecting nothing then they aren't protecting anything and aren't meant for protection. Unless they don't want people to know how empty they are, if so then it is protecting something, but to always assume that a wall is actually a boundary doesn't make sense if there is nothing, but more rock behind it, because a wall with nothing behind it is more like a door anyway, something to be opened.



Maybe I shouldn't say wall anymore, but dead-end, of course that's also a wall. I guess what someone could think is a wall is actually a dead-end and that's what I mean. Not every wall has something behind it. I am going to assume we are in agreement.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
If walls are protecting nothing then they aren't protecting anything and aren't meant for protection. Unless they don't want people to know how empty they are, if so then it is protecting something, but to always assume that a wall is actually a boundary doesn't make sense if there is nothing, but more rock behind it, because a wall with nothing behind it is more like a door anyway, something to be opened.



Maybe I shouldn't say wall anymore, but dead-end, of course that's also a wall. I guess what someone could think is a wall is actually a dead-end and that's what I mean. Not every wall has something behind it. I am going to assume we are in agreement.

Exactly :D Walls are also meant to keep in deamons, protect the outside world from whats within ;)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Exactly :D Walls are also meant to keep in deamons, protect the outside world from whats within ;)

But not every wall has emptiness or something worth protecting behind it.

Like placing intention behind words that are meant to be plain.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
But not every wall has emptiness or something worth protecting behind it.

Like placing intention behind words that are meant to be plain.

then is it really a wall? The only thing I can think of are walls that are just laying around from the past. They really have no use, but they are still standing in some form or fashion.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Z Buck just described it way better than I could! Especially the part about having to remain more distant if there's no way to make sense of everything that I'm seeing. It's not so much that I want to do it to be nosy or because I enjoy analyzing everything to death, but that it is like "flying blind" as she described it to not have access to any of that information!
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
My ex-wife ENFJ give me "help" with insights. I dont really listen nor do I care because while they are true, I dont really care about what she cares about. I also have NFPs who try to help me out by telling me how women are. From my experience NFJs will backstab you different then NFPs. They will hurt you different. They are completely different people in how they think/feel/interact.

The funniest thing I heard is when a women went to a pre-marriage counseling session and came out thinking "I have a lot more issues(in regard to who they are in the relationship) then I thought, WTF". And this was something that was told to me, not heresay or anything like that.

Yeah it makes sense that not everyone shares the same values. It's just when one doesn't take responsibility for the consequences or acknowledge that sometimes their actions impact others that it gets to me. Or when my shoulder is repeatedly cried on over the same stupid stuff. As far as I'm concerned, party, blow your money, screw whoever you want, but don't leave your kids in a crappy place and don't expect other people to clean up your messes.

Don't drive all your gas out running some guy around, then call me because you're stranded at the side of the road. Don't tell me about all the booze you consumed over the weekend and then call me because your kids don't have any food. Don't mess around with some other woman's man and then get upset because you have relationship problems.

I do stupid stuff, too. I know that. And I'm not deluded enough to think I'm easy to live with. And I've been very lucky in a lot of ways, especially in love. But it's just grown-up 101 to take care of your kids, pay your bills and buy food before you get fun stuff, and suck it up when you do something stupid and it blows up in your face, IMO.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yeah it makes sense that not everyone shares the same values. It's just when one doesn't take responsibility for the consequences or acknowledge that sometimes their actions impact others that it gets to me. Or when my shoulder is repeatedly cried on over the same stupid stuff. As far as I'm concerned, party, blow your money, screw whoever you want, but don't leave your kids in a crappy place and don't expect other people to clean up your messes.

Don't drive all your gas out running some guy around, then call me because you're stranded at the side of the road. Don't tell me about all the booze you consumed over the weekend and then call me because your kids don't have any food. Don't mess around with some other woman's man and then get upset because you have relationship problems.

I do stupid stuff, too. I know that. And I'm not deluded enough to think I'm easy to live with. And I've been very lucky in a lot of ways, especially in love. But it's just grown-up 101 to take care of your kids, pay your bills and buy food before you get fun stuff, and suck it up when you do something stupid and it blows up in your face, IMO.

nice :nice:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
then is it really a wall? The only thing I can think of are walls that are just laying around from the past. They really have no use, but they are still standing in some form or fashion.

In my earlier post I said I have decided to call it a dead-end. That's exactly my point, it may not be a wall at all.
 

Crescent Fresh

Diving into Ni-space
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
802
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Plus, to actually answer the OP, I don't think my insights into people hinder having a relationship with anyone, but I often want the relationship to attain a greater depth than it does in reality (for a myriad of different reasons that are moot to comment on here). I will often open topics of conversation that lead to deeper venues, but few people are interested to go there. Still, I do have some very close friends and for that I am very grateful.

I think that sometimes you sharing your insight might actually have potential to deepen a relationship past the more superficial stages, esp if you are compassionate in sharing and correct when you voice your thoughts. That would be the crux I think. You would have to be right and deliver that at the perfect time and in the perfect way, or else risk the relationship shutting down. So the key would be to have the appropriate filter in place that prevented you from exposing what you think you know until you truly know it (and arguably, who really knows anything, eh?) Plus, possessing the wisdom to know who can handle that truth and who cannot.


Excellent points.

I think for NJs we can be lack of patience in figuring out people conclusively within a short timeframe. As Fidelia points out, our Ni works slightly different from Ne users since we tend to have this incredible urge to read the behind-the-scene motives from ppl to satisfy our introverted-intuition judgement. And I *think* by offering our insights, even when it is negatively proceeded, we are trading for a deeper bond or trust by sharing our perspectives through honesty. Also, it can be frustrating for those who read it as unsolicited criticism, and I believe it has to do with the inability to soften our tone or to re-word it in a less judgemental way.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i think the idea of "paying attention" is easier said than done, because it's paying attention to the effects in a different way than Fe. it's not just throwing out a new prediction. it's this underdeveloped side of staying engaged in time so that you can stay with what happens. this is what makes you have good timing, and it's so important for how you use the insights, or the "readings" you generate with Ni. i lose sight of basic intersubjectivity ethics because i'm not really grounded in stories that come from the "how" question, that come from understanding your influence and the effects and taking responsibility for that in a tangible way. instead, i try to get the meanings right, live by a kind of ethical order that i work really hard at, but, unfortunately, some times miss the point when i lose my balance and more egregiously lose the flow of what is happening around me.

i'm bad at many things skylights points out. i'm really bad at "getting information" about the actions i am taking. this has always felt sneaky to me, rather than just being direct and asking somewhat constraining questions and explicating the meaning. the art of "informing" communication, and navigating with well-selected information questions rather than yes/no questions, can be problematic and feel overbearing because i'm hiding the why rather than making an obvious claim for it (which i do see can be more face-saving). i think i'm also really bad at obtaining permission and recognizing the levels of access that would fit the various social contexts that define the situation. this is partly because i often respond to the meanings that are part of the communication without really grasping as directly how the messages being sent are a kind of action. the whole Fi thing about respecting other's rights to their own reality is difficult for me to stay with. i lose sight of the story that means you first have to establish contact, and then negotiate boundaries, which requires getting information strategically not just about the problem as you perceive it but about the relation that is established, the other person's feelings, etc.

it's weird because from my perspective, it's like i'm just saying, i may not be all that interesting in many ways, but here is what i have that i think might be most valuable to you. it is searching for validation in a way, partly in the sense that i know that actually imparting something valuable, especially if it is recognized as valuable by the other person, makes me feel good.
 
Top