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[NF] NFs - does your insight into people hinder your relationships?

cafe

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My problem is more with being able to predict how things are going to turn out if a person takes a particular action. Sometimes this is not that much of a super power -- anybody can see it. Sometimes my guesses are more accurate than the average bear's.

What ends up happening is that I keep watching them walk into obvious (to me) train-wrecks, sometimes dragging innocent parties along for the ride. Eventually, I start to get irritated because they will tell me about their horrible situation and sometimes ask for help, which, to a point, I don't mind. However, after several years of "Who didn't see that coming?" I get disgusted and it becomes difficult to pretend like I'm surprised and sympathetic that things turned out so badly. Sometimes it gets to the point where I just can't bring myself to watch anymore.
 

entropie

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I personally must say that the first thing I think when I read those threads like "We NFs have insight into people" is mentally insane.

First of all you need a lot of life experience to have insight into people and that isnt achieved just because a mbti test scored you nf. And second of all this whole "we" mentally reminds me of the borg collective. I find that thought as frightening as going to churches for sunday messes.

I know, I am not helping. :)
 

Betty Blue

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I personally must say that the first thing I think when I read those threads like "We NFs have insight into people" is mentally insane.

First of all you need a lot of life experience to have insight into people and that isnt achieved just because a mbti test scored you nf. And second of all this whole "we" mentally reminds me of the borg collective. I find that thought as frightening as going to churches for sunday messes.

I know, I am not helping. :)

Haha, how humble of you.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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It frightens people. "Why is it that you get the scoop on everyone else, yet no one can have the same on you?" is what I've heard. I think what makes it most upsetting is that we can intuit and feel out things that were meant to be private, even things that they didn't know, with scant information, if any at all. After being around a highly attuned NF, you'll feel how the Wizard felt when his ruse was unveiled.
I have a tendency to want to balance that, and so I have to be careful to not share too much. Sometimes my mistake in trying to relate is that, even though I don't say much, if I start sharing I can bare my soul. This is why I tend to be completely private socially, but when I get the feeling that I want to connect with someone, I can end up being too exposed because I have trouble relating to the acquaintance social interaction. What I use for acquaintance interaction is strictly professional projects. I don't hang out and joke, talk about sports or gossip. If I have a conversation it tends to be unguarded.

This creates a social dichotomy between extreme private and completely exposed. This is the huge problem with trying to create friendships and just interact in the world because so much of social interaction does not exist on either end of that spectrum.

Edit: I will that since I was about 13 I have spent easily 10-20 hours a week just analyzing people and subjective systems inside my head. So, even though a young NF can certainly lack insight, it should also be taken into account that a 16-year-old NF could have spent well over 2,000 hours practicing analyzing and understanding other people and may have already read several books on the topic.
 

Poki

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My problem is more with being able to predict how things are going to turn out if a person takes a particular action. Sometimes this is not that much of a super power -- anybody can see it. Sometimes my guesses are more accurate than the average bear's.

What ends up happening is that I keep watching them walk into obvious (to me) train-wrecks, sometimes dragging innocent parties along for the ride. Eventually, I start to get irritated because they will tell me about their horrible situation and sometimes ask for help, which, to a point, I don't mind. However, after several years of "Who didn't see that coming?" I get disgusted and it becomes difficult to pretend like I'm surprised and sympathetic that things turned out so badly. Sometimes it gets to the point where I just can't bring myself to watch anymore.

My ex-wife ENFJ give me "help" with insights. I dont really listen nor do I care because while they are true, I dont really care about what she cares about. I also have NFPs who try to help me out by telling me how women are. From my experience NFJs will backstab you different then NFPs. They will hurt you different. They are completely different people in how they think/feel/interact.

The funniest thing I heard is when a women went to a pre-marriage counseling session and came out thinking "I have a lot more issues(in regard to who they are in the relationship) then I thought, WTF". And this was something that was told to me, not heresay or anything like that.
 
G

garbage

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First of all you need a lot of life experience to have insight into people
I hope I'm not taking this one out of context, but it's worth expounding upon.

Any insight or mindset that isn't checked against the real world and refined through experience will, over time, become misaligned to the point of uselessness. But that refinement process also requires paying attention.

So, when it comes to gaining people-insight, one actually has to pay attention to other people, to social dynamics, and to the effects of one's actions on a relationship. Giving a shit about other people also helps, as it serves as another motivator to pay attention.
 

metalmommy

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I personally must say that the first thing I think when I read those threads like "We NFs have insight into people" is mentally insane.

First of all you need a lot of life experience to have insight into people and that isnt achieved just because a mbti test scored you nf. And second of all this whole "we" mentally reminds me of the borg collective. I find that thought as frightening as going to churches for sunday messes.

I know, I am not helping. :)

It's ok. We understand where you're coming from. :D
 

entropie

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It's ok. We understand where you're coming from. :D

Ey dont play that card ! ;)

I've been hanging around the NF forums for almost 4 years now I think but the insights spoken so often about I havent found so often. Normally I have to strip NF posts of 95% of its text because its irrelevant before I find the core message and then the core message most often is so banal that I think ironically: ok that was a profound statement.

On the other hand tho regarding my own personal problems, I have found the greatest help in the NF forums.

So here is a contradiction, which for sure is a problem of mine not NFs. Since I usually dont judge people, I dont ponder so much about that contradiction. What I ponder nevertheless about are people saying "I have insight into people". Somehow that sounds arrogant to me. Tho I run around and say "I rock at mathematics", which is prolly arrogant to a lot of other people.

What to draw from this is the following: obviously you start to think about people being arrogant when you yourself are good or bad in a given topic. That would make sense following a bit [MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION]'s logic. But if someone who has "insight into people" would know that there are people who think he is arrogant when he says that he has "insight into people" would he still say it then ?
 

Poki

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I hope I'm not taking this one out of context, but it's worth expounding upon.

Any insight or mindset that isn't checked against the real world and refined through experience will, over time, become misaligned to the point of uselessness. But that refinement process also requires paying attention.

So, when it comes to gaining people-insight, one actually has to pay attention to other people, to social dynamics, and to the effects of one's actions on a relationship. Giving a shit about other people also helps, as it serves as another motivator to pay attention.


Its so strange to think that just paying attention is insight. I guess to me its considered common knowledge. Maybe that is insight. I dont attribute it to being an N trait though. Its definately not intuition.
 
G

garbage

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But if someone who has "insight into people" would know that there are people who think he is arrogant when he says that he has "insight into people" would he still say it then ?
Ah, cool. I'd say that the answer to your question is: yes! Coming across as knowledgeable--or even as arrogant--can be a tactic in social dynamics.

Of course, if a person claims to have insight into people but doesn't know that he comes across as arrogant.. .. he probably doesn't have as much insight as he thinks. :)
Its so strange to think that just paying attention is insight. I guess to me its considered common knowledge. Maybe that is insight. I dont attribute it to being an N trait though. Its definately not intuition.
I'll clarify, here: paying attention isn't itself insight--but it's necessary to pay attention to what life throws at you in order to gain or refine insight. That is, it's a matter of taking in information and also processing it correctly.
 

entropie

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yea there we can see our different cultural backgrounds. someone who tries coming off as more knowledge able around here would be joked about pretty quickly :)
 

Coriolis

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It does if we get to grass roots and the core is tainted, the facade peeled away reveals something less than attractive, ugly even. Most often my instincts are to fix but sometimes it is beyond my own capabilities.
Those of us, or at least some of us, who are very private and don't share much are often motivated by the fear that this is exactly the reaction we will get. That if we do let someone in, they will be put off by what they find, and all the effort it took to open up to them will be lost, leaving us with only unwanted exposure.

This creates a social dichotomy between extreme private and completely exposed. This is the huge problem with trying to create friendships and just interact in the world because so much of social interaction does not exist on either end of that spectrum.
I notice this as well. Professional interactions are easy and comfortable. True openness with a few close friends is quite thrilling. The rest is a no-man's-land of ambiguity and dissatisfaction, the latter probably on the other person's side since I tend to default to a professional and impersonal style when there is no basis for openness.

Its so strange to think that just paying attention is insight. I guess to me its considered common knowledge. Maybe that is insight. I dont attribute it to being an N trait though. Its definately not intuition.
Insight is more than paying attention; it is being able to understand and interpret what you see. There is a quote somewhere about looking at what everyone else is looking at, but seeing what the others don't see. I can pay attention to people all day and not come up with 10% of the reliable conclusions that other people (usually NF's??) will make. If I did that routinely, I probably would get better at it, but it is not my natural gift.

Ah, cool. I'd say that the answer to your question is: yes! Coming across as knowledgeable--or even as arrogant--can be a tactic in social dynamics.
Yes, there is a time for deliberate, willful arrogance, but this approach must be used selectively, with care.
 

Poki

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:shrug: i dont know. I have never been as impressed as people make it seem. Maybe they are and i just dont realize it. I seem more like we are fairly even playing grounds.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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There's a big difference between blindly stabbing and seeing something without all the context. There are times when I can see someone has stuffed feelings about something, but I don't yet know why. Understanding is a process that is not always so easily negotiated. I don't need to blindly stab, nor would I. That seems to imply that I'm either seeking to hurt someone, or I don't know people at all. Neither is true.


I am referencing the fact that you say that you often don't realize you've seen it. That's not insight, because insight is clarity which means you would see that and not be so careless with the information. Also because you meet a wall does not mean you have gained insight into the person.

In fact walls can imply that you've actually reached nowhere. An outer boundary where their feelings don't extend.

Beyond that, what makes you think that you have the ability to reach a place in people that others don't? You might simply be the only one motivated to search, which may or may not be special, I do not know, but being an INFJ does not necessarily give you this ability.
 
G

garbage

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yea there we can see our different cultural backgrounds. someone who tries coming off as more knowledge able around here would be joked about pretty quickly :)
Oh, yeah. To clarify: I'm not claiming about whether or not it's the right thing to do, just that it is a tactic. :wink:

As you imply, the tactic can severely backfire, too--so, in extremes, it's not even prudent, let alone conscientious.

Lots of people use the tactic, even subconsciously or pathologically as a force of habit, to artificially create distance between themselves and the world. That's a flaw that.. you know, they should think about fixing.
 

metalmommy

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I am referencing the fact that you say that you often don't realize you've seen it. That's not insight, because insight is clarity which means you would see that and not be so careless with the information. Also because you meet a wall does not mean you have gained insight into the person.

In fact walls can imply that you've actually reached nowhere. An outer boundary where their feelings don't extend.

Beyond that, what makes you think that you have the ability to reach a place in people that others don't? You might simply be the only one motivated to search, which may or may not be special, I do not know, but being an INFJ does not necessarily give you this ability.

No, I said I don't immediately realize that what I've seen is something that the person does not wish to have seen. What I see is not all-encompassing. I don't see all the context, the entirety of the emotion surrounding that piece, or why they may be in denial/stuffing said piece.

And there is no way to predict how someone will react to having that item seen. Some people are horrified & erect a wall, some are tentative & wish to discuss further, everyone is different. And it takes time to see how. It's like if you see food in someone's teeth. Most people don't want that seen, but you did. Now what? Do you tell them? Do you ignore it? Will they be mad if you do/don't say something? This is a vastly over-simplified example, but it helps to illustrate my point.

I also never said I was "special" and could do things no one else can do. Clearly that is not true. I don't see things because I'm looking for them, either. They're just there. It's a culmination of what is said, how it is said, what is not said. I cannot unsee them, either. It just is. You know, the whole iNtuitive thing.

And reaching a wall? Provides tremendous insight. Walls are erected to protect something, which is only necessary if someone wants to protect it. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people don't say, what they want to protect or hide.
 

PeaceBaby

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I think some people try not be known because they want to be seen as special (which, paradoxically, stems from a desire to be known in its own right).

Yes, I would agree with this.

My problem is more with being able to predict how things are going to turn out if a person takes a particular action. Sometimes this is not that much of a super power -- anybody can see it. Sometimes my guesses are more accurate than the average bear's.

I think INFJ's are particularly adept at this, yes.

It's like if you see food in someone's teeth. Most people don't want that seen, but you did. Now what? Do you tell them? Do you ignore it? Will they be mad if you do/don't say something?

Maybe you could share a "real life" example? Would be interesting to dissect it, esp from the NFJ / NFP vantage points.

And reaching a wall? Provides tremendous insight. Walls are erected to protect something, which is only necessary if someone wants to protect it. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people don't say, what they want to protect or hide.

I agree with your primary definition of the purpose of a wall being one of protection. Safety within, invaders stay out. Yet walls are erected for more reasons than that, imo. Personally I hide info from the "general public" just for pure convenience at times, not because I am sorely trying to protect anything. Sometimes it is necessary for my opinion to remain concealed in order to bring other's opinions out of the woodwork. Sometimes I am working through stuff on my own time and wish to retain personal privacy to that process. Eh, you get the idea.

Occasionally too, fascinatingly, what I initially perceive as a wall in another turns out to be the end of the road on that topic. It's just ... as far as their personal projection extends. Nothing else there. Could the wall be pushed against to see what would happen if it fell? Sure. But that would be making something happen rather than revealing something hidden. Perceptual difference.
 

Starry

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No, I said I don't immediately realize that what I've seen is something that the person does not wish to have seen. What I see is not all-encompassing. I don't see all the context, the entirety of the emotion surrounding that piece, or why they may be in denial/stuffing said piece.

And there is no way to predict how someone will react to having that item seen. Some people are horrified & erect a wall, some are tentative & wish to discuss further, everyone is different. And it takes time to see how. It's like if you see food in someone's teeth. Most people don't want that seen, but you did. Now what? Do you tell them? Do you ignore it? Will they be mad if you do/don't say something? This is a vastly over-simplified example, but it helps to illustrate my point.

I also never said I was "special" and could do things no one else can do. Clearly that is not true. I don't see things because I'm looking for them, either. They're just there. It's a culmination of what is said, how it is said, what is not said. I cannot unsee them, either. It just is. You know, the whole iNtuitive thing.

And reaching a wall? Provides tremendous insight. Walls are erected to protect something, which is only necessary if someone wants to protect it. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people don't say, what they want to protect or hide.


Please know that I totally realize this is not representative of how you feel...but the OP does sorta read in a way like...'people are put-off by my magical abilities to see into their soul'. <--- And this is the (sole) reason they erect walls (there doesn't appear to be any other possibility - at least given). That it is somehow the other person's inability to discuss or admit what you must feel they should be able to discuss or admit on your time (or why else would you have thrown these insights out there?).

I can't imagine one would be provided with such great insight into an individual yet not be able to gauge at what level the individual is comfortable discussing these insights.
 

metalmommy

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Please know that I totally realize this is not representative of how you feel...but the OP does sorta read in a way like...'people are put-off by my magical abilities to see into their soul'. <--- And this is the (sole) reason they erect walls (there doesn't appear to be any other possibility - at least given). That it is somehow the other person's inability to discuss or admit what you must feel they should be able to discuss or admit on your time (or why else would you have thrown these insights out there?).

I can't imagine one would be provided with such great insight into an individual yet not be able to gauge at what level the individual is comfortable discussing these insights.

I have realized over the last 6 pages of replies that I probably did not communicate myself completely clearly. This has been a progression of understanding over my lifetime. When I was young, I didn't understand people well enough to judge when I should say something & when I shouldn't. Experience has taught me how to behave in many circumstances. There are still those that surprise me tho.

As I have hopefully clarified, I see pieces without context sometimes...or without enough context...and through the course of conversation, they become aware that I've seen. Not necessarily because I've blurted out my observation, but perhaps from the context of a question or something I say.

I don't think it's a magical ability, but it is an ability. There are just times that I happen upon things that were supposed to be camouflaged and I don't immediately realize that there was supposed to be camouflage. The "oops!" side of NF interpersonal relations, if you will. They're opportunities for learning, but sometimes those opportunities come at a cost when people freak out that you've inadvertently exposed something.
 

PeaceBaby

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There are just times that I happen upon things that were supposed to be camouflaged and I don't immediately realize that there was supposed to be camouflage. The "oops!" side of NF interpersonal relations, if you will.

We need examples! Share some examples! Please? Prettyplease? :flowerz:
 
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