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[NF] How do NFs view INTJs?

JivinJeffJones

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
3,702
MBTI Type
INFP
I guess I wasn't very clear in what I meant by "second-guessing themselves". I meant second-guessing values and motives, not second-guessing how to act on (or most precisely express) them.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'm just too lazy to find it, so I'll just have to shamefully self-plagiarize.

INTJ: I'm going to do A.
Me: Why?
INTJ: Because it's the most efficient way to achieve B.
Me: Why do you want to achieve B?
INTJ: Because it's the best way to achieve C.
Me: Why do you want to achieve C?
INTJ: *blank look*
Me: What's so great about C? You must have a reason for wanting to achieve it, surely?
INTJ: *glower*
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Oh. To deal with people like that, just use the SP defense:

"Because I feel like it."

or, alternatively,

"Because it's cool."
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
I guess I wasn't very clear in what I meant by "second-guessing themselves". I meant second-guessing values and motives, not second-guessing how to act on (or most precisely express) them.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'm just too lazy to find it, so I'll just have to shamefully self-plagiarize.

INTJ: I'm going to do A.
Me: Why?
INTJ: Because it's the most efficient way to achieve B.
Me: Why do you want to achieve B?
INTJ: Because it's the best way to achieve C.
Me: Why do you want to achieve C?
INTJ: *blank look*
Me: What's so great about C? You must have a reason for wanting to achieve it, surely?
INTJ: *glower*

Don't question the master plan! :shock:
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
970
MBTI Type
INTJ
I guess I wasn't very clear in what I meant by "second-guessing themselves". I meant second-guessing values and motives, not second-guessing how to act on (or most precisely express) them.

Logic --> Values --> Plan

Of course I still do have feelings that influence my thoughts, actions, values, and plans.

As for my motives... my motive is usually to either work on my plan, or act on my plan.
 

chris1207

New member
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
467
MBTI Type
XNXX
Enneagram
3w2
Just don't get more than one of them in a room. Like all J's they're very opinionated and they'll have a "friendly" debate about anything.

My main core of friends consists of an ESFJ, an INTJ, and an INXJ (supposedly mostly T) and the latter two are always arguing about something on the news or something they read in their philosophical books. Me and the ESFJ just sit back and wait it out most of the time with a bit of chitchat.

I think someone mentioned that INTJ's are cute when they're trying to be social. It is quite funny how awkward they can be in the social realm. What's even funnier is that they often aren't even aware of it.

My INTJ friend just got his first girlfriend and they're having trouble in their relationship. Most of this problem has to do with his ego. His girlfriend's an ESFP BTW. It was great when he asked me, "Am I really that difficult to deal with?" I told him that me and the ESFJ had built up mechanisms to deal with him over the years, having know him for about 10 years.

Long story short, XXTJ's are the most socially inept of all the personality types but at least IXTJ's aren't jerkwads about it!
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I think someone mentioned that INTJ's are cute when they're trying to be social. It is quite funny how awkward they can be in the social realm. What's even funnier is that they often aren't even aware of it.

C-cute?!

:cry:

Well, perhaps being perceived as 'cute' can offer up some advantages when dealing with people... *jots down notes and schemes*
 

Curious_Kitty

New member
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4
One of my best friends is a INTJ, she's witty and practical, but agrees with me on a lot of things, and I enjoy debate with her (we don't actually debate much, sense we tend to agree on a lot of things, just kinda add in information) XD. As someone else mentioned, I think they are sorta cute in social situations. I've never really met a male INTJ yet surprisingly, but I kind of want to because I have this ideal that I would probably like one. o.o
 

Desert Flower

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Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
67
My brother's INTJ or P. He's wonderful. All we do is joke and argue all day. I like that I can say mean things to him sometimes and he just laughs at me.
 

Griffi97

New member
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
124
MBTI Type
INFJ
My grandfather was an INTJ. He was probably my only close family member who really understood me, and was one of my best friends until he died when I was 19.

I had a very close INTJ friend for about 8 years, but we would occasionally disagree and finally she wrote me off as a friend. I have tried to make up with her, but she will have none of it.

I think the whole shared Ni thing can be both a bond and a challenge in relationships between INFJ's and INTJ's.
 

Leysing

New member
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
309
MBTI Type
FiSi
I like the rationality of well developed INTJs.

But I know this INTJ who considers himself a Higher Being and even says it himself. He says that other people are so stupid that they don't understand his genius. Well, he is clearly very intelligent, but other people just can't stand his company and start defending themselves against his abrasive, aggressive behavior. He tries to force others to adapt to him. He has NO idea of social rules, NO willingness to even try to be socially appropriate, and he demands others to tolerate his behavior because of his intelligence.

We don't get along very well :D
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I like the rationality of well developed INTJs.

But I know this INTJ who considers himself a Higher Being and even says it himself. He says that other people are so stupid that they don't understand his genius. Well, he is clearly very intelligent, but other people just can't stand his company and start defending themselves against his abrasive, aggressive behavior. He tries to force others to adapt to him. He has NO idea of social rules, NO willingness to even try to be socially appropriate, and he demands others to tolerate his behavior because of his intelligence.

We don't get along very well :D

People can easily seem really stupid even to me, but I care about them enough to feel guilty when I become aware of offending them (even if they were only offended because they didn't understand what I meant). I'm tempted by that kind of thinking myself at times, but I'm too aware of my own flaws for the idea to get very far. INTJ's do seem to be slightly better at idealizing themselves for some reason... perhaps because their intellect is even stronger, they make fewer mistakes, and the disparity between themselves and other people is even greater?

Still, I can understand well enough to pity an INTJ who falls into that trap. :( It's a lie (albeit a very comforting and understandable one at times) to think other people don't matter just because they're less intelligent and have weaker wills/endurance.

But I would say that most INTJ's are not like that. They're a bit distant and cold, but they usually do hurt for others on some level, and have a soft spot. They're also usually less confident than to think they're better than other people, and know the dangers of underestimating other people's value or potential threat to themselves.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
People can easily seem really stupid even to me, but I care about them enough to feel guilty when I become aware of offending them (even if they were only offended because they didn't understand what I meant). I'm tempted by that kind of thinking myself at times, but I'm too aware of my own flaws for the idea to get very far. INTJ's do seem to be slightly better at idealizing themselves for some reason... perhaps because their intellect is even stronger, they make fewer mistakes, and the disparity between themselves and other people is even greater?

But I would say that most INTJ's are not like that. They're a bit distant and cold, but they usually do hurt for others on some level, and have a soft spot. They're also usually less confident than to think they're better than other people, and know the dangers of underestimating other people's value or potential threat to themselves.

I think I sometimes give the 'better than you' vibe when I don't mean to. I kind of snapped out of it for real when I was about twelve.

The problem, I think, is that INTJs usually have a disconnect of what they think and what is actually shown to the real world. (Just to look at functions for a moment, we have Ni and underdeveloped Fi mainly expressed through Te -- COME ON. I mean really!) There are thoughts and feelings always there but if they're not considered useful they go unexpressed. So, that's a LOT, usually hidden by a blank or angry face that people can project anything onto. And when people go and assume things, it's not as if you can refuse it because the refusal just 'proves' it by some warped logic that the INTJ can't grasp.

Or something like that.
 

Haphazard

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Apr 14, 2008
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6,704
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ENFJ
^^^
hmm...from reading this I'd say my brother is more INTP...nevermind my reply.

This is just speaking from personal experience -- which may be entirely inaccurate. I don't think I know any INTJs IRL. Maybe a couple INTPs, but no INTJs.
 

Athenian200

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Jul 1, 2007
Messages
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4w5
The problem, I think, is that INTJs usually have a disconnect of what they think and what is actually shown to the real world. (Just to look at functions for a moment, we have Ni and underdeveloped Fi mainly expressed through Te -- COME ON. I mean really!) There are thoughts and feelings always there but if they're not considered useful they go unexpressed. So, that's a LOT, usually hidden by a blank or angry face that people can project anything onto.

So you think the Ni-Fi axis contributes to INTJ's idealizing themselves and thinking they're "good enough" when they're not? As an INFJ, I think I tend to be most conscious of how I want to be, and exactly how and where I fall short.

And when people go and assume things, it's not as if you can refuse it because the refusal just 'proves' it by some warped logic that the INTJ can't grasp.

It's the idea of people being "in denial" about traits they wouldn't want to attribute to themselves, or are not consciously aware of. So the more strongly you protest, the more people think you must be protesting due to your denial. They aren't aware that you genuinely know that it isn't there. FJ's (well, at least myself) can tend to rely on other people to reflect their emotions back at them (as if the other person were a mirror) to get a clearer idea of their own feelings. Can't just feel them totally from within in detail without some kind of stimulation or a symbol.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
So you think the Ni-Fi axis contributes to INTJ's idealizing themselves and thinking they're "good enough" when they're not? As an INFJ, I think I tend to be most conscious of how I want to be, and exactly how and where I fall short.

Nevermind what I said before -- I think I know what you're talking about now (it took me a while, but think I got it)

The issue is that INTJs believe they are malleable. It may have been a satirical remark that "INTJs see life as a problem to be solved," but it's true. Even the healthy ones, what they tend to believe is that they're up to a challenge, that they see two things react (themselves against custom), they don't see themselves as flawed, what they see is simply breakdown, and that something's got to give. Once you've got an INTJ believing that they're inherently flawed then you've probably got a pretty depressed INTJ on your hands.

There may be problems with behavior, there may be problems with appearances, with paying attention, with being considerate, but they tend to believe themselves as more than the sum of their behaviors and impressions. Behaviors can change, but the spirit of the person remains the same.

It's sort of like when the vocalist begins criticizing the quality of their instrument. The instrtument -- the voice -- is a part of themselves, so to believe the instrument is bad beyond use is to quit. However, to believe that the instrument can be honed to be good is to continue on, even if you're breaking mirrors while you train your voice.

It's the idea of people being "in denial" about traits they wouldn't want to attribute to themselves, or are not consciously aware of. So the more strongly you protest, the more people think you must be protesting due to your denial. They aren't aware that you genuinely know that it isn't there. FJ's (well, at least myself) can tend to rely on other people to reflect their emotions back at them (as if the other person were a mirror) to get a clearer idea of their own feelings. Can't just feel them totally from within in detail without some kind of stimulation or a symbol.

Oh yes. Denial. For some reason, I'm always, always in denial.

I always figured that if what I'm feeling is that important, I'd figure it out eventually.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,511
MBTI Type
ENTP
With their eyes!

*rimshot*
I was going to say with one of these.
viewmaster.gif
 
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