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[MBTI General] a question about INFJ

halfaninstant

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May 18, 2008
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29
MBTI Type
INFP
i was wondering... INFP follows a set of internal roadmap... do INFJs have this? do they constantly evaluate the world and adjusts their internal roadmap? or are all their visions hunches and they never really consider how or why they have them? why they even believe in them...
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
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OMNi
i was wondering... INFP follows a set of internal roadmap... do INFJs have this? do they constantly evaluate the world and adjusts their internal roadmap? or are all their visions hunches and they never really consider how or why they have them? why they even believe in them...

As I told one of my friends awhile ago, Ni is like sailing a ship through a dark storm with a compass but no map. It tells you what direction you need to go, but you have to predict what perils and obstacles you might encounter on the way.

However, while a map could be wrong, misinterpreted, or out of date, a compass will always point in the right direction. To others it might appear like INFJs are blessed with blind luck but actually INFJs scuttle the ship quite a few times before they learn which instincts to trust and which ones to ignore. But once they master it, they can read the patterns in the currents and avoid the dangers long before they run upon them.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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ENFJ
Interesting analogy...

I've also heard another one with travel, having to do with trains. Ni offers a train of thought, and you just have to hop on and see where it leads. Some hit a dead end, but if you never get on board, you'll never know.

I may not be INFJ but I have been lead to believe that I have nothing within me -- nothing that I can point to and call my own, as INFPs have. And then what usually happens is I see an abstract-based shiny and I jump on the train again to chase it, forgetting the cause of my existentialist angst in the first place.

Ni goes by what 'feels' right, but not in the concrete sense as Se would. This is why domNis get so obnoxious in debate, because they're not going by something concrete in their heads, they're going on the sense that there has to be 'something' there, and any small chink in the armor of an argument just must be a weakness.

Why even believe these 'hunches'? Why do some people have a preference to thinking about the concrete? Why do salmon swim upstream? Why does Saturn have rings? I guess the only reasonable answer is that people's thought processes cannot be reasonable. I'd just as soon ask how an INFP can possibly presume to have a 'road map' in such a constantly fluctuating world.
 

wedekit

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694
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INFJ
I'm not really sure I understand the question entirely, but I'll try and answer it.

My answer would be No. Due to our Ni we build a "framework" of how we see the world, which is formed from minimal external influence. Unfortunately, when things aren't able to fit into that framework we naturally tend to want to disregard them instead of adapting to them. One of the big differences between INFPs and INFJs would be that one uses Ne while the other uses Ni. This paragraph from http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/4629-infj-profile.html should be helpful:

Thus, unlike the Extroverted Intuition that is concerned with collection of all ideas and assesses them based on how such ideas influence the external environment, the Introverted Intuition assesses such hunches based on its internal agenda and is interested strictly in ideas that befit the previously established agenda. Whilst Extroverted Intuition requires continuous stimulation, Introverted Intuition runs on itself. The Extrovert will be forced to engage himself in abstract external activities, such as writing or debating to maintain his world of ideas, yet the Introverted Intuition requires no more than a solitary retreat. The more peaceful the environment, the better, to a greater degree the vivid imagination shall flourish. Thus for an INJ, it would hardly be hyperbolic to claim that the creative energy derives literally from nowhere.

Basically, the INFJ does not rely on the external environment to form their beliefs. I think it's pretty accurate to say that INJs do not fully "trust" the influence of the external environment.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
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OMNi
I'd just as soon ask how an INFP can possibly presume to have a 'road map' in such a constantly fluctuating world.

Precisely. :yes:

With the great diversity of perspectives, values, cultures, and environmental influences, it's hard to imagine that there are any absolutes or set paths. I sometimes hear XNFPs argue that their way is the one true path and it floors me because it rejects just how relative this world really is.

It's just so weird since they were raised by a certain family to uphold certain values, in a certain culture, and had certain experiences. And yet they just can't imagine that someone who was raised by a different family to uphold different values, and who grew up in a different culture, and who would have had different experiences, could have different principles and beliefs that have just as much merit as theirs do.
 

heart

heart on fire
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. I'd just as soon ask how an INFP can possibly presume to have a 'road map' in such a constantly fluctuating world.

The outside cannot affect me at the core. ;) The moment it ever did, I would be corrupted.
 

Kiddo

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OMNi
The outside cannot affect me at the core. ;) The moment it ever did, I would be corrupted.

One point to make with that.

It's the hares whose fur doesn't change with the seasons that get eaten. I think some XNFPs would benefit knowing that a hare doesn't have to stop being a hare to turn white in the winter and brown in the spring. Realizing that the environment is always changing and being able to adapt with it is just as essential as preserving the qualities that make a hare a hare.

(I'm just full of analogies today)
 

heart

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One point to make with that.

It's the hares whose fur doesn't change with the seasons that get eaten. I think some XNFPs would benefit knowing that a hare doesn't have to stop being a hare to turn white in the winter and brown in the spring. Realizing that the environment is always changing and being able to adapt with it is just as essential as preserving the qualities that make a hare a hare.

(I'm just full of analogies today)

A base analogy won't cut it. Sorry, no dice. I am a sentient human being, not an animal.
 

wedekit

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694
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INFJ
Precisely. :yes:

With the great diversity of perspectives, values, cultures, and environmental influences, it's hard to imagine that there are any absolutes or set paths. I sometimes hear XNFPs argue that their way is the one true path and it floors me because it rejects just how relative this world really is.

It's just so weird since they were raised by a certain family to uphold certain values, in a certain culture, and had certain experiences. And yet they just can't imagine that someone who was raised by a different family to uphold different values, and who grew up in a different culture, and who would have had different experiences, could have different principles and beliefs that have just as much merit as theirs do.

I know exactly what you mean. But I also see my ability to recognize the relativity of the worlds as a curse. It's hard to develop beliefs when you are forced to accept that beliefs contrary to yours have just as much merit. It is just so hard to feel confident in them when you can clearly detect the relativity in everything.

(And BTW, I personally thought your hare analogy was good.)
 

Kiddo

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I know exactly what you mean. But I also see my ability to recognize the relativity of the worlds as a curse. It's hard to develop beliefs when you are forced to accept that beliefs contrary to yours have just as much merit. It is just so hard to feel confident in them when you can clearly detect the relativity in everything.

I find the key to avoiding getting lost in the sea of relativity is to understand that individuals are objective in the sense that they are defined by their very own values, perceptions, experiences, culture, etc. Even every individual XNFJ is ultimately the sum of those qualities. Or in other words, while the XNFJ can accept that other beliefs may have just as much merit as their own, it doesn't change the fact that XNFJs have their own beliefs that are derived from their very own values, perceptions, experiences, culture, etc.

(And BTW, I personally thought your hare analogy was good.)

Thanks. :D I don't think heart got it. I'll explain it if she comes back.
 

Kiddo

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I got it. I am not an animal. Analogy cannot apply.

Um...humans are animals. Technically you are a primate.

And as far as the analogy goes, I was saying that individuals will never stop being who they are by adapting different perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. when they encounter different times, environment, situations, etc. because individuals never lose their original perceptions, values, beliefs, etc.

In other words, a hare is no less a hare by turning white in the winter. It was a brown hare at one point and it can be a brown hair again.
 

wedekit

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I got it. I am not an animal. Analogy cannot apply.

Analogies are formed to point out similarities of two generally unlike things. So you not being a hare is what makes the analogy applicable. He's not comparing you to an animal directly, he's comparing a quality you have to a quality of an animal. He's not suggesting INFPs hop on their hind legs and reproduce incessantly. ;) Just thought I should point that out. I'm in no way arguing that you MUST accept this analogy or else! Far from it.

"Analogies prove nothing, that is quite true, but they can make one feel more at home" (Freud, 1933, p. 83). ;)
 

heart

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Um...humans are animals. Technically you are a primate.

I am a senitient human being. If you want to be a mere animal, that's for your to decide but I put a higher moral responsiblity on myself than I would a monkey.

And as far as the analogy goes, I was saying that individuals will never stop being who they are by adapting different perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. when they encounter different times, environment, situations, etc. because individuals never lose their original perceptions, values, beliefs, etc.

There's a fine line for sure between growth and selling out. I never want to cross it.

In other words, a hare is no less a hare by turning white in the winter. It was a brown hare at one point and it can be a brown hair again.

So I could shout "burn witch burn!" when the mob forms and then later I can put my hair back into its bun and sedately go to church and preach love thy neighbor?:D;)
 

Kiddo

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I am a senitient human being. If you want to be a mere animal, that's for your to decide but I put a higher moral responsiblity on myself than I would a monkey.

Monkeys have been shown to have morals.

There's a fine line for sure between growth and selling out. I never want to cross it.

:shock: Okay then.

So I could shout "burn witch burn!" when the mob forms and then later I can put my hair back into its bun and sedately go to church and preach love thy neighbor?:D;)

I've yet to meet a person who does that.

A hare can change its fur when it needs to and still be a hare, but it certainly can't jump off cliff and expect to fly. As I said before, you can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold and those are the qualities that ultimately define you. Adapting different aspects for certain moments or environments can never change that. A hare will always be hare, even if it does try to fly. It'll just figure out after a great deal of pain that there are some things about itself that it can never change. Those are the qualities that define it as a hare. Just as our original experiences, values, beliefs, etc. define us as who we are.
 

heart

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A hare can change its fur when it needs to and still be a hare, but it certainly can't jump off cliff and expect to fly. As I said before, you can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold and those are the qualities that ultimately define you. Adapting different aspects for certain moments or environments can never change that. A hare will always be hare, even if it does try to fly. It'll just figure out after a great deal of pain that there are some things about itself that it can never change. Those are the qualities that define it as a hare. Just as our original experiences, values, beliefs, etc. define us as who we are.

Can you give an example of what you are talking about? What kind of adherance to self do you find disturbing in these xNFP you speak of?
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Can you give an example of what you are talking about? What kind of adherance to self do you find disturbing in these xNFP you speak of?

Crusading, put simply.

They'll have a belief that may not be accepted into other belief systems, or not be supported by factual evidence, and stick to it for a very, very long time. On top of that, they'll crusade for it, which would infringe on the beliefs of everyone else. As in, INFPs seem gentle until you go against their values, at which point they turn into 'destroy' mode. And, well, it can be disturbing -- to INFJs who don't think you're considering other's feelings.

But, I suppose INFPs will always crusade, just as INTJs will always try to make their dubious schemes a reality and ESTPs will always cheat little old ladies out of their life's savings.
 

heart

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Crusading, put simply.

They'll have a belief that may not be accepted into other belief systems, or not be supported by factual evidence, and stick to it for a very, very long time. On top of that, they'll crusade for it, which would infringe on the beliefs of everyone else. As in, INFPs seem gentle until you go against their values, at which point they turn into 'destroy' mode. And, well, it can be disturbing -- to INFJs who don't think you're considering other's feelings.

But, I suppose INFPs will always crusade, just as INTJs will always try to make their dubious schemes a reality and ESTPs will always cheat little old ladies out of their life's savings.

Good grief, the day an INFJ has anything to say about an INFP being stubborn about beliefs or crusading, hell will be frozen solid, okay? ;)
 

halfaninstant

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May 18, 2008
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INFP
I'm lost. Don't both INFP and INFJ find the answer to their question internally? I don't look externally for my answer. I ask question due to external events that prompt them, but my answer always come from within.

And how can INFJ not have a roadmap? isn't every answer to a question a sort of precedence to be followed? sure it changes - its not a static roadmap. don't you keep every flash of insight you have to guide you? or do you have them, do an action, and forget the hunch?

imagine yourself exploring a new ocean- as you move through it, you map where you've been so you know how to navigate it again at a later time... but perhaps on revisiting, you find a small island that you miss due to the foggy weather the first time. you don't look at the island and say it doesn't exist. that's stupid.

and what's this about static beliefs... And who crusades anything? I don't push my beliefs on others. are INFP supposedly crusaders? What's wrong with wanting to realize a vision for a better world? are INFJ suppose to have visions that are somehow better than INFP?

where did you get this "can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold"? are you saying that people are static and don't change? Seems a bit.. narrow minded.

and what's this INFJ trying to realize schemes? isn't crusading exactly the same as having a vision and trying to make it come true? isn't crusading all about making a vision come true? what's the difference?

blah - don't generalize a situation where someone who happens to be INFP saying their path is the only true path to be truth for all INFP. :shock:

sorry, but you guys are confusing me - it seems like splitting hairs, mixed in with predisposition towards one type or the other.
 
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