[Fi] Fi communication and “evil” TPs

[Kalach]

This is the frustration I have, and I believe many other Fe users have, that the Fi user is too self-centered to care about the group.

Pansy. And you know it.

When Fi users start shooting their mouths off at least some of it is Te. What's the best mechanical solution for us all in this situation as a group of individual Fi shouters? They don't care less about the group, they determine what works for it in a contrary way.

The problem for communication and mutual backrubs is, to use the language of typology, Te and Fe deny one another. A Te approach denies that the mechanical aspects of the situation are laced directly with feeling signifiers. A Te approach denies that "the group" exists in the terms you say it does.

This is exactly why we can't have nice things.



(Probably shouldn't have said "pansy". Singling out speakers and appearing to assign evaluations to them based on their claims is just one of the many gambits in the construction of "the group" and/or knowledge that probably just always does go wrong. WHO THE HELL KNOWS?!)

 

[FireShield98]

What is described about TPs doing reminds me a lot of my ISTP older brother.

 

[MacGuffin]

Pansy. And you know it.

When Fi users start shooting their mouths off at least some of it is Te. What's the best mechanical solution for us all in this situation as a group of individual Fi shouters? They don't care less about the group, they determine what works for it in a contrary way.

The problem for communication and mutual backrubs is, to use the language of typology, Te and Fe deny one another. A Te approach denies that the mechanical aspects of the situation are laced directly with feeling signifiers. A Te approach denies that "the group" exists in the terms you say it does.

This is exactly why we can't have nice things.



(Probably shouldn't have said "pansy". Singling out speakers and appearing to assign evaluations to them based on their claims is just one of the many gambits in the construction of "the group" and/or knowledge that probably just always does go wrong. WHO THE HELL KNOWS?!)

Eh, I don't see the Te.

 

[Kalach]

Eh, I don't see the Te.

Not a disproof.

In fact, quite the opposite, eh?

 

[Southern Kross]

Pretty long OP. I just want to say that when I first came here I ran into a wall of Fi-doms who kept telling me I was doing this or that wrong. But as far as I'm concerned, that's their opinion. Their feelings and personal value aren't The Truth, and I am not one to be dictated to by a bunch of nattering ninnies.

Are you serious?

Sorry, but I was with you until the last part where you indulge in the very behaviour the OP outlines.

Take the autoplay discussion in Feedback. I had no idea who does or does not use it. But I knew who would throw the hissy fit about changing it.

Who always arrives, charging up the hill, screaming with bayonet fixed? The Fi users. They never seem to care about the groups and associations they affect. Can hardly ever get them to admit others have a problem to begin with.

Hmmm, that's what it seemed like to you? I don't know that we read it the same way. I said I disliked autoplay, but never meant my comment to be taken seriously, nor do I think it important to change the set up. I wonder now if that's how it came off. I certainly don't think it should be changed if the majority of people like it or don't mind it.

I think there are several wires getting crossed here. Sometimes Fe-users hear dissent as an attempt to bring everything down, when Fi-users just want to explore the full picture. Sometimes what Fi-user deems as merely expressing an opinion, Fe-users see as a call to action. Perhaps we Fi-users don't always foresee the impact of communicating an personal view and that it might undermine things for everyone. From our perspective more voices and more information are preferable, as it helps to clarify and determine what action to take. Perhaps one individual may express a strong dislike for the autoplay, without necessarily believing the best thing would be to change it - that person may simply not like it and wants people to know that, and isn't demanding everyone to drop everything and run around to please him/her. The strength of the opinion does not necessarily reflect the level of expectation that it should be valued above others.

But then again some of them might be just grumpy whiners who want things their way. I'd have to read through the thread again.

This is the frustration I have, and I believe many other Fe users have, that the Fi user is too self-centered to care about the group.

I think we both value the group. Human beings do tend to gravitate towards some form of utilitarianism. I just think we have different ideas about what is better for the group.

From explore what was said above, it seems you believe cohesion is important, as well as adhering to what is best for the majority. But to me it's just as important to question what individuals want, in order to work out who in fact the majority is; as well as to evaluate whether the pleasure of some, should outweigh the negative effects on others. If that makes sense.

 

[Istbkleta]

Yeah ...

 

[Mal12345]

Are you serious?

Sorry, but I was with you until the last part where you indulge in the very behaviour the OP outlines.

Thanks for providing a great example of what I was saying.

 

[Southern Kross]

Thanks for providing a great example of what I was saying.

Oh, you mean I was being all judgemental by pointing out that it's wrong use insults to get your point across?

 

[Amargith]

Err...Wow. Ok. I was just going to add that it is unfortunate this is a text template, as with this topic, the intonation of what you are saying is *vital* to not sounding condescending or judgemental. Even with the I and You difference as such. If you say whichever text as a call to action..it is going to put more pressure and potentially cause more rebellion in the receiver, whereas if it is given as just a piece of advise (if asked for, or even unsolicited), without any indication of frustration, judgement, just merely as an observation, it has less of a 'invaded' space feeling to it

...as for the INTPs who indicated that they dont care about causing discomfort and even harm to others since they (according to them) stayed in the 'appropriate' boundaries of the social contract...That to me is about as selfish as Fi-users who deliberately destroy the harmony or the common goal that the group they are in is holding dear, just for individual expression.

On a personal note, if that behavior gets displayed in front of me, Im likely to keep you at arms length from there on as I cannot trust you to not stab me in the back (yes, I experience that kind of severe lack of empathy as stabbing in the back, as such, even if you dont necessarily intend it that way). I may understand where you are coming from, but you will get your wish: I will Fe/Te up. And you wont get passed polite chit chat, since I wont feel safe around you. Of course, that may actually be what you are looking for, so that works, I guess

Anycase..this thread seems to have taken a turn towards toxicville, so I think I will get off at this station. Enjoy your rides

 

[Poki]

Err...Wow. Ok. I was just going to add that it is unfortunate this is a text template, as with this topic, the intonation of what you are saying is *vital* to not sounding condescending or judgemental. Even with the I and You difference as such. If you say whichever text as a call to action..it is going to put more pressure and potentially cause more rebellion in the receiver, whereas if it is given as just a piece of advise (if asked for, or even unsolicited), without any indication of frustration, judgement, just merely as an observation, it has less of a 'invaded' space feeling to it

...as for the INTPs who indicated that they dont care about causing discomfort and even harm to others since they (according to them) stayed in the 'appropriate' boundaries of the social contract...That to me is about as selfish as Fi-users who deliberately destroy the harmony or the common goal that the group they are in is holding dear, just for individual expression.

On a personal note, if that behavior gets displayed in front of me, Im likely to keep you at arms length from there on as I cannot trust you to not stab me in the back (yes, I experience that kind of severe lack of empathy as stabbing in the back, as such, even if you dont necessarily intend it that way). I may understand where you are coming from, but you will get your wish: I will Fe/Te up. And you wont get passed polite chit chat, since I wont feel safe around you. Of course, that may actually be what you are looking for, so that works, I guess

Anycase..this thread seems to have taken a turn towards toxicville, so I think I will get off at this station. Enjoy your rides

With this thread things are often very shortsighted as well. If someone is generally very rude and then they say something with a nice tone or nice words it seems fake. At that point no matter how you word it or say it or what inflections you use its meaningless.

 

[Poki]

On another note you can easily have people who just want to be themselves. They dont go against the group, they want to be independent of the group. Of course if this person is valuable they are going "against" the group and they are just being spiteful and blah, blah, blah...projection

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh? The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her. An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.

Also, I know most Fi users don't do these extreme morally questionable things but I used the extreme to show examples of more nuanced "issues" that are harder to peg down.

 

[KDude]

Anyone can be hypocritical, but in that case, I'd say it's how one might rationalize their hypocrisy. Fi might hold a double standard perhaps out of sense of justice.. "giving it to the man". Maybe your INFP friend thinks that way. An ETP could easily just be as hypocritical, but they wouldn't justify it the same way. They wouldn't care to answer at all. It'd be more like "So?" They rationalize on what works on a situational basis. Plenty of ESTPs might screw around on their wives, but at the same time, kill someone who screwed around with theirs.

 

[Kalach]

Since we're putting the cards on the table, I can't really detect Fe at all. I'm not entirely sure what's a good way to explain that, but it does seem to me that consciously viewing the outer world as containing no items of intrinsic moral value, action, or process, goes a long way toward making Fe invisible. What this leaves for the most part is an awareness only of what appears to be an unwholesome one-upmanship, like people assuring themselves of a rank. I probably perceive people organising other elements of the social order too, but it all seems so essentially arbitrary that only the weaknesses stand out.

 

[You]

I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh? The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her. An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.

and you are correct in not trusting them. they likely wont trust you either. however, if they do, then someone isn't being honest and/or obvious about their intentions.

 

[Kalach]

I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh?

"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot any relevant differences between an individual and an institutionalised political party? Have you always been a stooge for The Man or is this new?!"

The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her.

"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot differences between an individual taking it easy at work and other people making it hard for her at work? Have you always been a management stooge or is this new?"

An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but don't you know I'm worth more than money!? Did you just now start measuring me by the money I use or have you always been some kind of banking industry stooge?"

I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.

It's astonishing really how easy it is to turn these examples around.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot any relevant differences between an individual and an institutionalised political party? Have you always been a stooge for The Man or is this new?!"



"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot differences between an individual taking it easy at work and other people making it hard for her at work? Have you always been a management stooge or is this new?"



"I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but don't you know I'm worth more than money!? Did you just now start measuring me by the money I use or have you always been some kind of banking industry stooge?"



It's astonishing really how easy it is to turn these examples around.

I suppose but I can't support that logic because the behavior isn't consistent with the principles these Fi users seem to cherish themselves. Or at least appreciate in reciprocity. Now, those Fi users, with the exception of one, are very good friends of mine. I may judge them for it internally but I don't express it because everyone can think the way they want. They may do the same with me. Even though I may not trust some of them with certain things I trust my knowledge of them implicitly.

Fi and TP's can have strange alliances to say the least.

 

[Orangey]

This all sounds like nonsense, sorry. I know a couple of NFPs (and a bunch of SFPs/STJs, who both have Fi somewhere in there) and I don't think any of this "advice" applies. At all.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think we both value the group. Human beings do tend to gravitate towards some form of utilitarianism. I just think we have different ideas about what is better for the group.

Would it be fair to say it's a matter of Fi valuing some 'ideal' for the group, whereas Fe will value something more practical and based on what the group wants (at least in the immediate sense, I think FJs will tend to want to refine that to an ideal on their own/in retrospect in anticipation of ‘next time’- but want to use immediate group ‘wants’ as a springboard for implementing resolution and FPs will want to dive into 'ideal' particulars right then-and-there without feeling that same pressure to have an immediate resolution to set in place). Because it's a theoretical 'ideal' existing in one or so people and not what actually exists in the social group (even if it 'theoretically' applies to more than that single person/few people), it can seem like MacGuffin described.

I can see it working this way with Ti too, and see how TJs get frustrated with it. Any extreme is going to be annoying (Je not willing to take in any of the theoretical ideal particulars at all, or Ji being die hard convinced it’s “best” when really it’s just a solipsistic tangent that’s too far removed from shared reality to be useful).

 

[Kalach]

I suppose but I can't support that logic because the behavior isn't consistent with the principles these Fi users seem to cherish themselves. Or at least appreciate in reciprocity.

^ those are the key ideas right there, probably.

I'd be betting the first point about the consistency is right, and at the same time not a problem for them. Not because they ignore the logic, but because the logic they use includes an automatic and important distinction between intention and expression of intention. Te/Fi: actions and processes in the outside world are not inherently moral items; the moral locus is inside the persons who guide those actions and processes. It follows that actions can't, or shouldn't, be inconsistent with personal principle, but they can, and maybe even should, be wildly inconsistent with norms and standards and conventions. That's to say, actions really don't establish principle. That might even be itself a principle.

The second point about appreciating principle in reciprocity--well, I'm probably going to misunderstand the point because I'm only really focusing on this word "reciprocity". It seems key, and I think maybe the logic of Te/Fi doesn't accord much value to reciprocity per se. Universalisability of action is probably more recognisable under that regime. You look inside for moral authority, and you make efforts to consider what would come to pass if everyone really did act in the way you want to now, but you're not less moral if what you choose is lacking in external system.

Now, those Fi users, with the exception of one, are very good friends of mine. I may judge them for it internally but I don't express it because everyone can think the way they want. They may do the same with me. Even though I may not trust some of them with certain things I trust my knowledge of them implicitly.

Can't tell if a trap or--

How does anyone ever know what ninja ISTPs are really thinking? Are there ever lines that people will know about when they cross them?