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[Fi] Fi communication and “evil” TPs

sculpting

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I wanted to jot these thoughts down. They represent some rough ideas I have pondered over for awhile and I think they are mostly legit, but as always would be delighted to have other share their own perspectives and corrections, as my perceptions are simply what I have seen. They are coming from my ENFP perspective and are things I have seen work on ESFPs, ISFPs, and ENFPs I know and may have some value extrapolated to other FPs and even TJs.

  • First: Fi judgments can be the most hateful, spiteful things ever, if used to protect one’s ego. This is when a TJ or FP degenerates to name calling or saying direct hurtful comments about another-either to them or to others. It is when an FP begins to start sounding nasty and vindictive and come close to some of the barbs that TPs can throw at one another out of fun.
  • To do this feels really disgusting inside and I think most of us know there is a “wrongness” to it when we do it. There is an internal hatred to it, a refusal to empathise with the other or allow them into one’s heartspace. At least form the NeFi side, we feel as though we carry the souls of others within us, thus to say things that are attacking of others, is to inadvertently attack our own selves.
  • Thus, simply by design, we are faced with attacking of others as feeling/being evil.
  • Thus when we see TPs saying sarcastic or pointed things, FPs innately read you all as EVIL, simply due to projection of our worldview. I work with a pretty cool, incredibly sarcastic INTP, whom another ENFP repeatedly says should “have a better attitude and not be so mean”. (In the same way, I suspect there could be the tendency of TPs to view FPs as “STUPID” when they fail to see an internal Ti logical consistency, but that’d be another thread altogether.)
  • FPs owe TPs an apology on a global level for this projection.

Second, So, let’s say you actually want to try and communicate with an FP (or maybe TJ) and what you are doing doesn’t seem to be working:

1. Recognize that throwing sharp Ti barbs or sarcasm at us like “you are stupid, your ideas are stupid” just looks like you are exhibiting spiteful Fi. This means we ignore you as being selfish and nasty and just not a nice person or a person with really, really screwed up Fi (think unibomber or satan). As I understand it, there is the notion that these shapr Ti barbs will provoke someone to think in a more reasonable way about an issue or recognize thier lack of logic...doesnt work well with us. Communication fail.

2. Recognize that Fe overtones and suggestive guidance will also fail as you are trying to influence our internal value framework. You just get read as being a really manipulative FP or an FP who is value pusing and being rude. Communication Fail.

3. Recognize that pointing to what Fe “everyone else” feels will be read to be as though you are not well founded enough in your own Fi value system to be able to think for yourself about what the right thing to do is, so we feel kind of sorry for you and just ignore whatever you are saying and roll our eyes. Communication fail.

4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.

5. When a TP of FJ tries to predict the internal motives of a TJ or FP, it is like watching a 6 car pileup on the freeway. Since we don’t use Ti, the Ti steps you guys come up with are typically very off and often quite offensive to our own Fi. Interestingly , you guys can get the external system correct and predict where things will end up okay, but you totally blow what motivates us and why we do things.

Things that do work when what you are doing may not be effective:

1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”

2. A subtle value shift can be done via affirmation combined with what action you would take in their place. “I realize you were really frustrated (affirm), and in that situation I would have been hurt too (affirm), but I would have asked him aside to talk in more depth rather than catching his car on fire in the parking lot”

3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,

4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

5. Don’t use shame, use guilt. “I did this action for you, know you need to do this for me.” “ You need to work harder for your children” We feel shame, but it is a rudimentary crippling Fi impact and if you shove enough it on an unstable FP, they may become suicidal as you destabilize their internal Fi.

6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.

7. #1 FP tool for significant value shift: YOU ARE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY YOUR ACTIONS. This is how you influence our values in a very direct way. Even better pose it as a question: “Do you understand that the by doing this action you make other people uncomfortable/hurt? I know that you care, but your actions seem to indicate otherwise.”

8. Take the convo to external logistics whenever possible as that is where we will eventually try and problem solve. Set up signed contracts and feel free to cut off financial support-I love you but you need to learn to be more responsible.

9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress.


again, just wanted to toss the thoughts into the wind. Long ago Ms [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] had asked me to jot them down and I just kept forgetting :)
 

Rasofy

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Nice post!
There was this ENFP co-worker who expected me to be all cheerful for no good reason, but the best I could come up with was a smartass reply. :devil:
She got along well with pretty much everyone but me.
An INFP co-worker once laughed out loudly when I said I was concerned about some stuff that could go wrong. It was like in her mind I didn't really care about anything. :laugh:
Weirdly, most of my friends here are NFPs. :)
 

Poki

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I dont get it...I am apparently a different kind of TP. My barbs are different, they are extremely blunt, personal, and can make comments like "YOUR STUPID" seem as childish as it is. This doesnt sounds like my "evil" side at all. I have actually laughed at ExFPs attempt to criticize and throw barbs because it seems very dull and not really accurate. I blame this on inferior Ni and Si.

I think if you take out Type from this its a very good read though. ok, to give my 2 cents

1. Recognize that throwing sharp Ti barbs or sarcasm at us like “you are stupid, your ideas are stupid” just looks like you are exhibiting spiteful Fi. This means we ignore you as being selfish and nasty and just not a nice person or a person with really, really screwed up Fi (think unibomber or satan). As I understand it, there is the notion that these shapr Ti barbs will provoke someone to think in a more reasonable way about an issue or recognize thier lack of logic...doesnt work well with us. Communication fail.
I do this when I want to push you away so ignore is success, sorry, but we are not stupid enough to push someone away who we want to be closer. I am more likely to stop responding and take a moment to figure out how to bring you closer then to actually do this. I dont use Ti barbs to communicate...again I am not stupid...I use them to push people away

2. Recognize that Fe overtones and suggestive guidance will also fail as you are trying to influence our internal value framework. You just get read as being a really manipulative FP or an FP who is value pusing and being rude. Communication Fail.
Fe overtones and suggestive guidance work as I am not trying to inluence your internal value framework. I am trying to build you up, sometimes I am doing for my own reasons, sometimes I am doing it to be honest, and in the worst cases this will be mixed with #1 to not only push you away, but to build your confidence as that will actually help to push you even further away

3. Recognize that pointing to what Fe “everyone else” feels will be read to be as though you are not well founded enough in your own Fi value system to be able to think for yourself about what the right thing to do is, so we feel kind of sorry for you and just ignore whatever you are saying and roll our eyes. Communication fail.
I really dont match up with everyone else, so this has never even been a useful thing for me to do.

4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.
my conversations usually have to do with reason so logical/detached helps, but that also creates a seperation when we need someone to partially connect with. At that point I would rather both emotiona as well as logical

5. When a TP of FJ tries to predict the internal motives of a TJ or FP, it is like watching a 6 car pileup on the freeway. Since we don’t use Ti, the Ti steps you guys come up with are typically very off and often quite offensive to our own Fi. Interestingly , you guys can get the external system correct and predict where things will end up okay, but you totally blow what motivates us and why we do things.
I already know I am a fail at predicting motives so I dont try, its one reason action speaks louder then words. We dont read motives...we dont read between the lines...if you pull away then we assume you want to be distanced from us, if you pull closer we assume you wanna be closer. This is what threw me for a spin with my ex...she would pull closer as I got distanced and then distance as I got closer. I generally have no problems with the back and forth as long as I dont get pulled in close and then pushed away really far.




1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”

2. A subtle value shift can be done via affirmation combined with what action you would take in their place. “I realize you were really frustrated (affirm), and in that situation I would have been hurt too (affirm), but I would have asked him aside to talk in more depth rather than catching his car on fire in the parking lot”

3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,

4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

5. Don’t use shame, use guilt. “I did this action for you, know you need to do this for me.” “ You need to work harder for your children” We feel shame, but it is a rudimentary crippling Fi impact and if you shove enough it on an unstable FP, they may become suicidal as you destabilize their internal Fi.

6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.

7. #1 FP tool for significant value shift: YOU ARE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY YOUR ACTIONS. This is how you influence our values in a very direct way. Even better pose it as a question: “Do you understand that the by doing this action you make other people uncomfortable/hurt? I know that you care, but your actions seem to indicate otherwise.”

8. Take the convo to external logistics whenever possible as that is where we will eventually try and problem solve. Set up signed contracts and feel free to cut off financial support-I love you but you need to learn to be more responsible.

9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress

None of this applies to me which is why FP advice is usually not helpful....the preceeding is a small barb...I have no desire to say your stupid...this is all very good advice, not not really applicable to Ti in my opinion, its more applicable to lack of Ti IMHO and I think who ever does this is actually stupid. I dont get it. I had an FP once tell me that I should take out my ex...we went out alot...didnt help. Sorry, but here is another one of my Barbs...typical ExNP advice doesnt help me...its generalized to "intorverted men" not personality.

You can actually choose to ignore me because of my barbs, but then you dont learn me...(another little barb) when you learn to listen you will learn that my barbs have substance behind them 95% of the time. Name calling is for children, maybe you should rephrase this to "men who havnt matured"


again...a very good article with lots of substance
 

Poki

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With me, just talk with me, openly and I am very laid back, easy going and will try my hardest to work through problems. Even if there is a comunication/understanding barrier.
 

wolfy

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I don't relate, maybe it is an NF Fi thing and that is why it is in the NF zone. Sneaks out
 

Wolfie

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Love this!!!!!

Especially:




1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”

This is really important to me. I don't mind throwing sarcastic barbs back and forth. EXCEPT when I am being serious, I feel attacked when someone is choosing to pick apart what I am saying and scrutinize me rather than try to really understand what I am saying. I feel like it just muddles the conversation and instead of having mutual understanding, it becomes a defensive scenario. I see a lot of examples of this on this forum. Clash of TP and FP?
 

Coriolis

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I wanted to jot these thoughts down. They represent some rough ideas I have pondered over for awhile and I think they are mostly legit, but as always would be delighted to have other share their own perspectives and corrections, as my perceptions are simply what I have seen. They are coming from my ENFP perspective and are things I have seen work on ESFPs, ISFPs, and ENFPs I know and may have some value extrapolated to other FPs and even TJs.
I can see much worthwhile advice in your post, that would work well on many people. I don't think it is the best way to approach TJs, though.
 

Istbkleta

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I like reading your posts.

They are insightful.

An interesting and surprising approach would be to try and feel your own Ti.

Perhaps pick a close IxFJ's brains on it. Might be better at getting you in touch with its soul with their Fe.

All the best and keep posting. You are a breeze of fresh air.
 

RaptorWizard

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Of course TPs are evil, since they have no values and no care for justice or mercy, in fact rather than boss you around they will do something worse, which is to completely ignore you!
 

SubtleFighter

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Excellent post! I'm not a TP, but I like getting insight on Fi-users.

It's interesting to note that the things that Ti-users would say without meaning any harm would mean something hateful if said by an Fi-user. From what I've seen from Ti-users, there's a subtle language with this. On one level, some things are just meant to be humorous or simply pointing out an inconsistency or where something doesn't add up. It's been interesting watching my younger ISTP brother grow up and fine tune who he can say these things around and not have them be offended and who he can't (although he still has a little way to go). But then there's a level where it crosses the line into intended hurt, but it seems this isn't what you're talking about.


4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.

I've noticed this difference many times with Fi-users and TPs/FJs. On the Fe/Ti side, it's confusing when we're trying to engage you with Feeling and you respond with Thinking. It can even feel offensive, even though it's not meant to be.


3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,


4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

I've noticed this need for directness and not getting hints with my ENFP best friend. But if you're a direct person yourself, you'd expect others to be like this too. It shocked me a little when I first got to know her at how bluntly she sometimes states things--although I've learned that there is an advantage to people just laying things out on the table to deal with.


6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.

Another example of how the same words are offensive or not offensive to different people--what you suggest as the non-offensive thing to say would be offensive to me, although the way you explain it I see how it's totally acceptable in Fi/Te language. I would also be offended by someone saying, "You need to love your kids more," (if I had kids) but I think what you're referencing is that people sometimes say things like, "Don't you love your kids? Why aren't you doing x,y,z?" I can understand how this can be offensive because of the implication. From the Fe perspective, love and actions are very intertwined. So the knee-jerk Fe reaction when someone isn't doing an action that in Fe-language equals love is often to think that it means there's a deficiency in the feelings that the person has. But this can be very, very wrong. This is why it's so helpful to learn about other people's thought processes and how not everyone speaks Fe-language.
 

Fidelia

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Totally identify with all your comments, Subtle Fighter!

In several clashes I've had on TypeC with Fi users (which were then resolved), I've been shocked at this issue of what different things we mean using the same words. I would very much take offense at what (NFP flavoured) Fi users would see as a kindly response, while they feel that I am overly harsh in my response. I also have found the bluntness a strange thing to get used to, although once I've determined how to respond to it and what it means, it makes things fairly straightforward.

Thanks for writing this, Orobas. I have some more questions to add in a bit.
 

Craft

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My Ne can sense the abstract reality that you are noticing and trying to describe. Although perception functions might play an important role as well in communications between FiTe and TiFe.
 

Philosorapteuse

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Very interesting post. Sheds some light both on why some of the INTJs I know sometimes come off as self-obsessed and closed-minded (and, relatedly, why my Fe rationalising often seems to just result in shutdown. It would never even occur to me that that might appear manipulative. I don't do manipulation. I don't even understand it, really. So that's very interesting.) Also on why it might be that someone will suddenly take exception to something I've said and accuse me of being nasty or "abusive" (my dad's favourite, especially when I was younger), and I'm left bewildered because all I was doing was being playful. Particularly, I knew an ISTJ who would just explode at people for apparently arcane reasons, and refuse to believe that whatever she'd taken exception to had been meant entirely innocently and didn't in fact imply anything further - despite an insistence that she didn't do subtleties, or hints, and that everyone should be direct. Maybe that was failsome Fi, in retrospect? :huh:
 

Amargith

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I loved it. Though [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION], you did go Te-heavy. Some of the 'tell her what to do' would backfire with me as it would cause rebellion from my side due to pressure (not as much as Fe does though). I need more of a: this is what you should do, and HERE IS HOW YOU DO IT. I need someone to teach me how to do the action as my Te isn't....that far along. Often I do know what I need to do, or what my value demands but I avoid doing it as Im scared of getting it wrong, of not being able to follow through on it, of making a bigger mess than it already is. At that point I dont need to be scolded..I need to be guided through it one ore two times, in order to feel comfortable and sure of myself that I can handle said action. And preferably *without* being made to feel stupid, ignorant, or getting a ton of frustration, guilt tripping and impatience from the one guiding me through it. I need to feel safe and be able to focus on what Im to learn, not focus on fixing your foul mood..which I instinctively do if its there. It takes priority imo, as it distracts me completely anyways, so there is no learning at that point.

The rest of it however, was spot on, imho.


And I would *LOVE* for FeTi users to ask all their questions (to see how you guys *think*) and for someone of your breed to write a similar post for us FiTe users to chew on.
 

Philosorapteuse

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I loved it. Though [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION], you did go Te-heavy. Some of the 'tell her what to do' would backfire with me as it would cause rebellion from my side due to pressure (not as much as Fe does though). I need more of a: this is what you should do, and HERE IS HOW YOU DO IT. I need someone to teach me how to do the action as my Te isn't....that far along. Often I do know what I need to do, or what my value demands but I avoid doing it as Im scared of getting it wrong, of not being able to follow through on it, of making a bigger mess than it already is. At that point I dont need to be scolded..I need to be guided through it one ore two times, in order to feel comfortable and sure of myself that I can handle said action. And preferably *without* being made to feel stupid, ignorant, or getting a ton of frustration, guilt tripping and impatience from the one guiding me through it. I need to feel safe and be able to focus on what Im to learn, not focus on fixing your foul mood..which I instinctively do if its there. It takes priority imo, as it distracts me completely anyways, so there is no learning at that point.

The rest of it however, was spot on, imho.


And I would *LOVE* for FeTi users to ask all their questions (to see how you guys *think*) and for someone of your breed to write a similar post for us FiTe users to chew on.

This is also interesting. From an INTP perspective, the reason I (we) don't take that approach is that I hate that approach being taken to me! It's just about the worst thing anyone could possibly do to get through to me. It gets read not as helpfulness, but as questioning my competence, which is basically to take a sledgehammer and smash it repeatedly on the INTP self-destruct button (which may also destruct you in the ensuing explosion.) It takes real skill to correct and advise (as opposed to discuss) without pissing off the INTP. Much more fruitful to write up the theory of how things might best be approached, casually leave it in the same room as the INTP, and let them assimilate it as though they'd worked it out themselves. ;) So I'd never have thought that was a good way of approaching someone! Man, people are interestingly different. :D

Or is this not actually an INTP thing, and just me being really terrible at being told what to do and how to do it? :D
 

KDude

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^Agreed. I often hate being "taught" (and dislike teaching almost as much.. I'd rather just do everything than walk people through... and that's saying a lot, because I'm not one to volunteer help either).
 

Amargith

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This is also interesting. From an INTP perspective, the reason I (we) don't take that approach is that I hate that approach being taken to me! It's just about the worst thing anyone could possibly do to get through to me. It gets read not as helpfulness, but as questioning my competence, which is basically to take a sledgehammer and smash it repeatedly on the INTP self-destruct button (which may also destruct you in the ensuing explosion.) It takes real skill to correct and advise (as opposed to discuss) without pissing off the INTP. Much more fruitful to write up the theory of how things might best be approached, casually leave it in the same room as the INTP, and let them assimilate it as though they'd worked it out themselves. ;) So I'd never have thought that was a good way of approaching someone! Man, people are interestingly different. :D

Or is this not actually an INTP thing, and just me being really terrible at being told what to do and how to do it? :D

Oh I have the same response you do when someone tries to lecture me on something I do just fine, thank you very much. Especially if that someone tries to convince me that their way is superior in some way. So, no, you are not alone. But I am very grateful when someone recognises that I have good intentions but I struggle with the execution of something and gently walks me through it. I have no problem admitting when I suck at something. When I actually *am* incompetent at something. And yes, I like the security of someone who knows what they are doing with me while i learn. So no, at that point it doesnt bother me at all to be told what to do :)

It is funny, with IXTPs, when they do ask me for advice, I try to explain clearly how I would handle it, how I think it would be different for them, taking into account their personality, and Ill end it with an offer to walk them through it, if they like, while adding that it is their choice and Im confident they can handle it themselves if that is their preference.

If i forget the last part, things tend to heat up..really quickly :laugh:

Im also the first to say (when I forget it): 'oh no, im not doubting your competence, I just figured youd like some support!' At that point they either smile and look relieved while accepting help or go: Thanks but I got it :)'

And Im good with that, I can go either way. If I do walk away at that point, I tend to add: 'Lemme know if you change your mind, Ill be over here'. And I go do something else.


...does that work for ya? ;)
 

onemoretime

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3h50
I think everyone can stand to be more honest, forthright, and earnest in their thoughts and feelings, and that doing so will avoid these sorts of conflicts. Even if well-intentioned, those "barbs" and sarcasm are rude and disrespectful unless both parties are clear about it being a game. There's also a fine line between sarcasm and verbal irony that is important to keep in mind: verbal irony is more playful, because it doesn't diminish the object, while sarcasm necessarily does.

Also, as [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] mentions, it's counterproductive to try and get inside someone else's head, unless you know that person very intimately. It can be difficult to remember that what makes sense to us does so because not only of differences in the priority we give to types of judgment, but also arising out of decades of experience leading up to that point, experience that is necessarily different for everyone.

No one is ever wrong for their emotional state, or how that person feels about something. At the same time, any person is only responsible for his own emotional well-being. Directness and clarity in speech, when given without malice, are ideal in any communication between relatively unfamiliar people; outside of extreme circumstances, a faux pas can always be met with a genuine apology.

I think the main thing that O gets to at the end there is the importance of assuming good faith with people. For the most part, we all try to do the best we can with what we have, and few act with malice or callous disregard. We only have so much attention we can devote to all the consequences of our decisions, however, and things get lost in the shuffle. That doesn't make anyone a bad person, just human and limited.
 

Philosorapteuse

right on the left wing
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
217
MBTI Type
INTP
Oh I have the same response you do when someone tries to lecture me on something I do just fine, thank you very much. Especially if that someone tries to convince me that their way is superior in some way. So, no, you are not alone. But I am very grateful when someone recognises that I have good intentions but I struggle with the execution of something and gently walks me through it. I have no problem admitting when I suck at something. When I actually *am* incompetent at something. And yes, I like the security of someone who knows what they are doing with me while i learn. So no, at that point it doesnt bother me at all to be told what to do :)

Ah, interesting. To me, being lectured on something I already know how to do perfectly well is very irritating, but it's not terrible, because as I can already do it, I can subsequently demonstrate my competence (and, as a bonus, display that the instruction was unnecessary. INTP ego-trips are so petty...) Whereas being lectured on something I *don't* know how to do well is actually worse, because then my incompetence is manifest and I get touchy. Something I've never done at all is uncomfortable, because I have this irrational feeling that I *should* know how to do it, but as I've never done it, it's OK for me to need instruction. And they call NTs rational...

It is funny, with IXTPs, when they do ask me for advice, I try to explain clearly how I would handle it, how I think it would be different for them, taking into account their personality, and Ill end it with an offer to walk them through it, if they like, while adding that it is their choice and Im confident they can handle it themselves if that is their preference.

If i forget the last part, things tend to heat up..really quickly :laugh:

Im also the first to say (when I forget it): 'oh no, im not doubting your competence, I just figured youd like some support!' At that point they either smile and look relieved while accepting help or go: Thanks but I got it :)'

And Im good with that, I can go either way. If I do walk away at that point, I tend to add: 'Lemme know if you change your mind, Ill be over here'. And I go do something else.


...does that work for ya? ;)

Yeah, that works. And yes, that last bit is important. ;)
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Ah, interesting. To me, being lectured on something I already know how to do perfectly well is very irritating, but it's not terrible, because as I can already do it, I can subsequently demonstrate my competence (and, as a bonus, display that the instruction was unnecessary. INTP ego-trips are so petty...) Whereas being lectured on something I *don't* know how to do well is actually worse, because then my incompetence is manifest and I get touchy. Something I've never done at all is uncomfortable, because I have this irrational feeling that I *should* know how to do it, but as I've never done it, it's OK for me to need instruction. And they call NTs rational...



Yeah, that works. And yes, that last bit is important. ;)


The bolded is interesting. It is one of my gripes with Fe/peer pressure. I *hate* being treated as a stupid person because Im clueless or inexperienced with something. It makes me feel insecure and like an aweful person coz *clearly* any intelligent person would know how to do this. And it makes me rebel like crazy to show them I dont need their approval. I will refuse to learn that thing out of sheer obstinance. Or, if I feel it is something that is important (for instance at work) to be professional, I feel a deep shame at being paid for somethign I suck at.

I am open to being taught and I need it (if you leave me to my own devices after putting me down and shaming me, I just stress so hard coz I actually believe I am too stupid to figure it out at that point), but if the person is being impatient, judgemental and resentful for having to tutor me, then I have the same response as to the Fe-peerpressure treatment: either I rebel, or I feel like utter and debilitating shame.

I need to feel safe and be able to trust the person who is going to show me that they dont mind teaching and dont think Im an idiot. Otherwise Ill just dig in my heels like a mule to protect myself against those feelings.

I am always busy learning new things on my own so I do not need a tutor..but I am somewhat ashamed as to the process I use, as it gets judged by NTJs as inefficient, and by FeTi as lazy and idiotic (which again, I take as personal attacks, i dont get how they are not meant that way, feeling-wise, that is), so I dont let others see it. I cocoon, far away from anyone, ashamed to show them my progress, and process, while feeding my curiosity . Unfortunately, its often only the theory I learn as execution means someone will notice the results..and I hate failing (which is an essential part of learning) in front of others. So..I only execute, away from others, where Im free to tinker and explore without others breathing down my neck, to master something.


...how on earth do you deal with that as an INTP?
 
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