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[NF] Communicating between Fe and Fi

Athenian200

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You find the dictionary definition subjective? :huh:

Anyway, a corrupted seed planted today, because one didn't want to create waves, will grow a corrupted tree and there is no telling what kind of fruit it will grow when mature. This is why it is dangerous to let corrupted judgement slide, it is not a loving thing to do when one looks at it long term.

I think you're just reacting too much to the idea you have in mind, without really comprehending what I'm talking about. Your reaction makes no sense to someone like me, given the examples I just showed you.

You also jumped from flawed to corrupt. The two are not the same thing.

What is this? Corrupted tree? Corrupted fruit? Are you just invoking biblical imagery to justify your feelings, when you don't even understand what you're arguing? An abstraction and a feeling that's so wide it no longer clearly refers to any specific situation that I can comprehend.

How on earth am I supposed to communicate with someone who won't even try to make sense or specify their meaning in a terms of a perceptible situation?
 

heart

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All I can say at this point is LOL. I am not trying to *justify* anything to do, you believe what you wish to.

If you are okay with accepting and excusing messed up judgement in the people around you, that's your affair, but I am just expressing that I find it highly disturbing when people do this. Excusing flawed, corrupt, bad whatever you wish to call it, judgement is just leaving the door open for bad decisions, which snowball into bad outcomes and then everyone is shrugging their shoulders wondering why such a bad outcome when the intentions were good and everyone was feeling so good and happy!

The implication was not meant to be Biblical, I forgot that phrase even has Biblical reference.

So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.
 

Haphazard

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Conversation must be consensual. People who try to start off conversations may be trying to find conversation anywhere they can get it, but if I say NO, that means NO, and that should be respected. If somebody doesn't want to converse, they shouldn't be forced to converse through all the rules that polite society has set up for them -- for example, absolutely having to answer inane questions that hold no value for them rather than just being able to say 'I don't want to talk'.

Conversation should not be forced on people. I cannot recount the number of times I've been forced into conversation and even confrontation because it was the 'polite' and 'right' thing to do. People just don't understand that not everyone is always up for conversation. I'd wager to say that I'm never up for conversation on other people's terms. And I'd rather not have conversation forced upon me by people who are just trying to 'care'. It's unpleasant, awkward, forced, and downright painful. But of course, it's just about their own needs. What rape isn't?
 

Metis

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Hey. Athenian200 & Proteanmix. Smile, at least.


probably was trying to manipulate you into admitting it up front? ;)

:) No. It's a serious question.



Heart, your foundation analogy fits well. Nothing wrong with using a good analogy from religion, or a similar one.
 

cascadeco

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This thread is fascinating.

I guess I'm most surprised by so many non-Fe doms thinking Fe-dom's demand and expect openness from the other party, and that to appease the Fe-dom, some sort of 'fakeness' needs to be projected by the other party. (I'm over-simplifying what has been discussed, but these are a few of the themes I glossed over).

If anything I desire realness and genuineness. I don't want to see a fake smile just to appease me (and I'd probably recognize it as fake anyway, and then I'd back away). Yeah, I might ask questions of others, and if someone looks down, I might probe a bit to find out why -- because I care and sometimes people just need to talk things out. But if the other person clams up, or bristles, or whatever, I'll detect that, back away, and leave them alone. It's certainly no joy for me to 'force' someone to discuss what they don't want to discuss, and it's not like I can force something anyway. I want them to WANT to open up -- and if they don't, then that's their choice, and that's that. I'm not bothered by negative emotions, as I experience them as well, so I can understand and get it. Also, since I'm fairly introverted myself, I get the whole thing where people just need their space and sometimes don't want to have anything to do with anyone else, and just want to stick to their own world - cause I do that too. So there's nothing in me that expects or demands anyone else to be cheery or put a good face on all of the time. And on my end, with those I have a reasonably good relationship with, whether at work or outside of work, I too show my negative emotions - sadness, anxiety, whatever -- but I certainly don't have any expectations that the other person then open up in kind.
 

Totenkindly

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...So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.

The parallels are uncanny, Heart. Somewhere else this morning, I was insinuating that flaws in the assumptions of a philosophy automatically reduce the potential positive outcome of following that philosophy. (i.e., flaws in the foundation of the system impact maximum efficiency/accuracy).

It is like the more impersonal version of what you said here.

Meanwhile, PM and Hap, thank you for discussing this so openly, it's fascinating to try and understand better the dynamics involved. Definitely an eye-opener.
 

Haphazard

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I can see that Fes don't expect people to be cheery all the time, but think about it this way -- if somebody doesn't respond, it's immediately assumed that something's wrong. Fe gets very upset when other people are upset, and tries to help them, but by helping them, they're actually digging deeper into what the other person didn't want digging in the first place, so in a way, they MUST respond to keep that from happening. To them, it's a simple option between bad or worse, and they may pick the better one, but nonetheless, it's still a bad option.

Negative emotions don't usually come from other factors in my life, they come from simply being forced to talk. This makes most others around me perpetually think I'm in a foul mood, when really it's the refrigerator-light syndrome. You know, the light isn't always on, but people assume it is because it's always on when they look.

The need for space -- I need space, all right. I need an incredible amount of space, an amount that I've found most people aren't willing to give. And this isn't 'sometimes' space -- this is space that when anybody is allowed through, it's the exception to the rule.
 

cascadeco

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You know, on the flip side -- and I think this is also my Fe. This is typically only at the start of relationships, when I first meet people, because once I get to know someone and trust them, I am much more voluntary in talking about myself and all of that.

But initially, I'm not one to open up a whole lot about myself, but it's because I don't know that the other person REALLY wants to hear about it, and is really that interested. So I don't volunteer information, and I WANT them to ask me questions, and I want them to probe. So I don't mind the questions coming at me at all, and the more personal they may be, the more I feel they really want to know, and really ARE interested in getting to know me. And when they do ask questions of me, I am incredibly open and honest with my responses. [and to clarify: there's a difference between someone being nosy and someone who actually cares and wants to know - and with the former I'll answer accordingly, and won't necessarily be super open. It just depends on the context and the other persons' intentions.] So I actually like getting asked questions, and frankly it's a rare thing for people to ask me anything -- and that makes me think they really don't care about getting to know me.

I don't want to just start spewing details of my life without getting demonstrated interest from the other person - in the form of questions. I'm just not one to start talking about myself. I'd much rather know more about the other person. So that's a problem I can have when it comes to just interacting with people, and I'm thinking maybe it's the Fe/Fi difference. When I interact with Fi's, in general they don't ask questions of me - thus I don't really open up, or it just doesn't flow, and then the relationship just kinda sits there and doesn't progress. On their end, they're possibly 'waiting' for me to just start talking of my own accord, and don't understand why I'm not.

Just interesting. I'm not saying either method is good/bad, I'm just expressing my own tendencies and observations when it comes to how *I* interact with people.
 

proteanmix

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I can see that Fes don't expect people to be cheery all the time, but think about it this way -- if somebody doesn't respond, it's immediately assumed that something's wrong. Fe gets very upset when other people are upset, and tries to help them, but by helping them, they're actually digging deeper into what the other person didn't want digging in the first place, so in a way, they MUST respond to keep that from happening. To them, it's a simple option between bad or worse, and they may pick the better one, but nonetheless, it's still a bad option...

The need for space -- I need space, all right. I need an incredible amount of space, an amount that I've found most people aren't willing to give. And this isn't 'sometimes' space -- this is space that when anybody is allowed through, it's the exception to the rule.

I strongly disagree with that. You sound as if FJs are mostly ignorant of any cues the other person is sending out; it's an imposition of the FJs desire to connect with a person regardless of if they want the connection or not.

I once again ask you to look at how often this really happens to you. You've already mentioned that you have an low tolerance for "chit chatting" and "small talk." I don't find that people do that much digging into other people, most are so caught up in their own concerns and cares to be nosing around in others that much other than the superficial (when I say superficial, I mean surface NOT artificial).

If you know you have a low tolerance for something, is it really another's fault that you find what most people are tolerant of intolerable? Have you taken stock of how accommodating people are of your needs? Are your needs reasonable? Do you have unfair expectation of people responding to your needs? How willing are you to respond to theirs?

I think these are all questions you should be asking yourself before you make such a claim. Oftentimes when I've tried to step back from a situation I've come up lacking in what my expectations and how feasible they are. I can't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate me if I've got an unusually high need for something. It's just not fair.
 
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Just a general observation or two on Fe, from a non-Fe type:

To use a metaphor, an Fe-oriented conversation resembles a game of ping-pong. It has a lot of rules (Fe is a judging function), and it has clearly marked "out-of-bounds" and "in-bounds" areas. At the beginner level an Fe ping-pong game (an Fe conversation) can be slow and clumsy and silly; at the expert level it is fast as lightening, full of strategy and twists, and keeps the viewer on the edge of his seat.

To an observer who understands the rules of Fe, it's fun to watch or participate in a game of Fe ping-pong (an Fe conversation). OTOH, to an observer who doesn't know anything about Fe, an Fe ping-pong game can be rather frightening to watch. The non-Fe observer doesn't know the rules and can't see what's in-bounds and out-of-bounds. In fact the non-Fe observer often can't even see the ball, the paddles, and the table. All he sees is two people standing a few feet apart and gesticulating wildly. They are slashing and punching at the air, looking like they are about to leap at each other and tear out each other's throats.

Thus you have Haphazard's 16-point description (Post #57) of an Fe ping-pong game (an Fe conversation). Clearly Haphazard has no knowledge of the rules of Fe; he characterizes the Fe ping-pong game in the most violent and intrusive terms (in post #63 he even describes it as "rape"). Haphazard admits that his fears are mostly just that--his own fears--and that he can't even say that any of them are true. Still, he clearly doesn't want any of those madly-gesticulating, violent-looking Fe ping-pong types around him.

In post #58, Proteanmix tries to explain some of the rules of Fe ping-pong to Haphazard, to show him that the game has rules and bounds and that none of his fears can possibly come true. But Haphazard relates how he has tried to join in a game by facing one of these Fe types and gesticulating wildly back, but it did no good and he just ended up making a fool of himself.

As for me, personally I was terrible at Fe up to the age of 18 and I was very much in the same position as Haphazard. I recognize his 16-point list very well, from my own past. Nowadays, on the other hand, I'm pretty good at Fe. IOW, I can pick up a paddle and play a pretty good game of Fe ping-pong myself in a pinch.

I would just advise Haphazard to take it slow. It really is a game of skill, and it takes practice. Start with easy repetitive conversations (the weather, current events, maybe some fluffy, jocular threads here at the message board) to work on the basics; after that, he can work on more sophisticated techniques. Working on the early basics is boring, but once you start getting some facility and sophistication at the game, the attraction grows. At the expert level, Fe ping-pong is lightening fast and utterly fascinating. It's a lot of work to get up to that advanced level for a non-Fe type, but in the end it's well worth the effort.

And, of course, with exposure and practice one eventually learns that Fe ping-pong is not violent or intrusive or "rape." It's just a helluva fun game, when it's played well.
 

cafe

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Oh. So non-Fe types always feel like I (a working class Yankee) felt when we lived in married student housing at a seminary in Kentucky where there were lots of middle and upper middle class women who did things like have tea parties where hats where worn?

Minding my own business and not bothering anyone was not good enough. Not even close. I lasted less than a year there. Went running back to my hometown where I know the rules and I don't know what it would take to pry me away from here again.

What a nightmare.

You do have to learn the rules of where you are, though. Work, school, church, in-laws, etc. Maybe finding a kind person with primary or secondary Fe in the places you have to know the rules for and asking them to take you under their wing and explain the unwritten rules (for they are legion) would be helpful. I'm going to use that tip myself, when I have to enter the workforce in a few years, I think.

I don't consider smiling and saying I'm fine when someone asks fake or lying, FWIW. I'm merely responding to the real intent of the question rather than the specific words. The intent is "I acknowledge your existence so we can proceed with politely ignoring one another. Please respond by acknowledging my existence so I can be done with this obligation and the ignoring can begin."
 
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Oh. So non-Fe types always feel like I (a working class Yankee) felt when we lived in married student housing at a seminary in Kentucky where there were lots of middle and upper middle class women who did things like have tea parties where hats where worn?

Minding my own business and not bothering anyone was not good enough. Not even close. I lasted less than a year there. Went running back to my hometown where I know the rules and I don't know what it would take to pry me away from here again.

What a nightmare.

You do have to learn the rules of where you are, though. Work, school, church, in-laws, etc. Maybe finding a kind person with primary or secondary Fe in the places you have to know the rules for and asking them to take you under their wing and explain the unwritten rules (for they are legion) would be helpful. I'm going to use that tip myself, when I have to enter the workforce in a few years, I think.

Yep, exactly. I learned my Fe skills living in an open squadbay setting in the Marines for years. One of the benefits of that setting was the collision of cultures: Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, northerners, southerners, westerners, city kids, farm kids, gang members, etc.

The different cultures set their boundaries (in-bounds, out-of-bounds) at different distances and places. It led to a lot of confusion and aggravation at times (culture clash), and there was a need to ask questions and work out some common rules. So I was able to see the rules being worked out right in front of my face, ask questions of others without fear of embarrassment, practice certain types of confrontation with the understanding that I was not necessarily going to be good at them, etc.

I think the best attitude to take is to recognize that it does take practice and that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. With that in mind, it's okay to admit to others that you're not an outgoing person by nature and to ask questions. For example: "Help me out. I don't understand what those guys were doing. Why were those two guys insulting each other--I thought they were friends? And how come they didn't get into a fistfight--they suddenly just stopped and walked away? What was going on there?"

I don't consider smiling and saying I'm fine when someone asks fake or lying, FWIW. I'm merely responding to the real intent of the question rather than the specific words. The intent is "I acknowledge your existence so we can proceed with politely ignoring one another. Please respond by acknowledging my existence so I can be done with this obligation and the ignoring can begin."

Exactly right. A greeting has a certain specific form. It's highly stylized, largely empty of content, but still quite important. It may seem insincere, but it plays critical role in the maintenance of ties and relations. And the form reflects the function.

Sincerity or insincerity has nothing to do with greetings. One might as well ask about the sincerity or insincerity of fixing a leaky faucet or washing the dishes. It's not about sincerity; it's about upkeep and maintenance. It's about keeping the house (social relations) running properly and avoiding catastrophic breakdowns from neglect.
 

cafe

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Exactly right. A greeting has a certain specific form. It's highly stylized, largely empty of content, but still quite important. It may seem insincere, but it plays critical role in the maintenance of ties and relations. And the form reflects the function.

Sincerity or insincerity has nothing to do with greetings. One might as well ask about the sincerity or insincerity of fixing a leaky faucet or washing the dishes. It's not about sincerity; it's about upkeep and maintenance. It's about keeping the house (social relations) running properly and avoiding catastrophic breakdowns from neglect.
Mmm hmmm. Just the human equivalent to butt sniffing in dogs. If you growl, cower, cringe, etc you're going to get a second look. If you sniff and move on, you're generally out of the woods.
 
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Mmm hmmm. Just the human equivalent to butt sniffing in dogs.

When you get rid of the frills and window dressing of civilization--yeah... :D

If you growl, cower, cringe, etc you're going to get a second look. If you sniff and move on, you're generally out of the woods.

That gets into the area of dominance and pecking order. Those things can fall under Fe in its application as a social organization tool. That's advanced use of Fe--very much a part of my study when I was in the Marines. :D
 

cafe

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When you get rid of the frills and window dressing of civilization--yeah... :D



That gets into the area of dominance and pecking order. Those things can fall under Fe in its application as a social organization tool. That's advanced use of Fe--very much a part of my study when I was in the Marines. :D
True, true. Dog hierarchy is simple and rigid by comparison, but it's still very much there.

The theory of the social dance in any species or society is fascinating to me. IRL is where it can be kind of a pain in the rear.
 

Haphazard

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I strongly disagree with that. You sound as if FJs are mostly ignorant of any cues the other person is sending out; it's an imposition of the FJs desire to connect with a person regardless of if they want the connection or not.

I once again ask you to look at how often this really happens to you. You've already mentioned that you have an low tolerance for "chit chatting" and "small talk." I don't find that people do that much digging into other people, most are so caught up in their own concerns and cares to be nosing around in others that much other than the superficial (when I say superficial, I mean surface NOT artificial).

If you know you have a low tolerance for something, is it really another's fault that you find what most people are tolerant of intolerable? Have you taken stock of how accommodating people are of your needs? Are your needs reasonable? Do you have unfair expectation of people responding to your needs? How willing are you to respond to theirs?

I think these are all questions you should be asking yourself before you make such a claim. Oftentimes when I've tried to step back from a situation I've come up lacking in what my expectations and how feasible they are. I can't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate me if I've got an unusually high need for something. It's just not fair.

How often is this really happening -- whenever I'm forced into a social situation.

I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...

It turns into an obligation that they get to know me, so it's much, much more difficult to just decide, "Oh, they don't want to talk," when you ask somebody how's your day when you're passing them in the hallway. As much as I like food at restaurants, I almost dread going because I know that the other person will be interrogating me over the meal. It's like they can't stand any silence.

And what's worse is when they're relatives, because coworkers and peers may eventually figure that "oh, they think they're too good for me," and stop pestering, but for family it's even more of an obligation because, hell, they're you're family, you're supposed to know about them and everything about them and keep up with them because that's just the RIGHT thing to do.

Essentially, you're in a social-convention catch-22. You're trapped by the convention that you just can't walk out on people, but you find you have to fight because of your own fear of being trapped. And there's nothing you can do about it, because it's absolutely normal.

Oh, I'm well aware that my expectations are entirely unreasonable -- there's a reason social convention is there, so that people know how to act without others getting mad at them, and yet, when they approach me, all of the sudden something that doesn't get people angry has made me morose and ill-tempered, and they have absolutely no idea why. There is no way of knowing this until you know somebody in depth, and according to convention, you can't get to the 'deep talk' without talking the 'light talk' first.

:doh:
 
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IRL is where it can be kind of a pain in the rear.

Eh. Just keep in mind that it's just ping-pong.

In animals and young children (and sometimes in the push-comes-to-shove world of the lower ranks of the Marine Corps), dominance and pecking order are often worked out in simple, brutal terms--who is the biggest and strongest and has the biggest fists.

But in adult-level social and work environments, social order is more often worked out via Fe (when not otherwise regulated by Te rules and regulations).

Sometimes there is a problem with that. When Fe pressure is applied in social settings, non-Fe types register it, they do a flashback to kindergarten and being bullied in the playground (the more primitive form of dominance and pecking order), and they freeze up in terror.

So Fe gets a bad name. Fe gets branded with the label of "manipulation." In turn, when they hear the label "manipulation," Fe-Dominant types cry foul; they're not trying to abuse anyone for personal gain; they're just trying to take a bunch of unorganized people and herd them in the direction of a productive goal for the good of the people themselves.

I think the key to getting over one's fear of Fe is to recognize it for what it is: a game of ping-pong. Pick up the paddle and play the game. No one's beating anyone up or kicking sand in their face. It's just a little mental game-playing to arrive at mutually satisfactory end.

My new boss is an ENFJ and I have a great time interacting with him, especially when we have opposing objectives. He's great at what he does, and it's fun to see the interaction. It's like a poker game--with bluffing, raising the stakes, hiding and revealing cards, dealing kicker cards, but in the end almost always resulting in a sharing of the pot. Give a little to get a little.

I always get a little burst of adrenaline when my boss turns his Fe full blast on me--kind of a wrench of fear in my guts that he's going to bulldoze over me. But then the fun of the contest takes over, and we're off to the races.

It's even better than a Ne duel with an ENTP. :D
 

cafe

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How often is this really happening -- whenever I'm forced into a social situation.

I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...

It turns into an obligation that they get to know me, so it's much, much more difficult to just decide, "Oh, they don't want to talk," when you ask somebody how's your day when you're passing them in the hallway. As much as I like food at restaurants, I almost dread going because I know that the other person will be interrogating me over the meal. It's like they can't stand any silence.

And what's worse is when they're relatives, because coworkers and peers may eventually figure that "oh, they think they're too good for me," and stop pestering, but for family it's even more of an obligation because, hell, they're you're family, you're supposed to know about them and everything about them and keep up with them because that's just the RIGHT thing to do.

Essentially, you're in a social-convention catch-22. You're trapped by the convention that you just can't walk out on people, but you find you have to fight because of your own fear of being trapped. And there's nothing you can do about it, because it's absolutely normal.

Oh, I'm well aware that my expectations are entirely unreasonable -- there's a reason social convention is there, so that people know how to act without others getting mad at them, and yet, when they approach me, all of the sudden something that doesn't get people angry has made me morose and ill-tempered, and they have absolutely no idea why. There is no way of knowing this until you know somebody in depth, and according to convention, you can't get to the 'deep talk' without talking the 'light talk' first.

:doh:
Have you tried saying something like "I'm doing good. How's life/work/school, etc been treating you?"

If you can just manage to turn the tables and become the interviewer instead of the interviewee you get to halfway listen while you stuff your face. Most people love to talk about themselves. Practice saying your 'I'm listening, please go on' noises: "really?" "uh huh" "huh!" "hmm" and a few canned questions.

They might just be asking you stuff in hopes that you will ask them about their _______ and they can blather on about it because they think it's the best thing since sliced bread. They want you to hit the ball back so they can show off how good they are with it.
 
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I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...

Yeah, extraverts tend to treat meals as a time to socialize, while introverts may want to use them for downtime.

There's an easy solution for that. Just bring a book to meals with you. If anyone sits down with you, chat with them for a minute to be polite, then pat the book and say "Sorry to interrupt, but I have to cram a chapter for work/school/a social event I'm attending after work. Hope you don't mind." Then open the book and pretend to read a few sentences.

When I used to eat in the cafeteria at work, I always brought a book and it effectively became my "do not disturb" sign.

Here's a similar situation:

A dental hygienist at my dentist's office would chat endlessly while she was cleaning my teeth. So I told her that I was giving a lecture at work and needed to go over my speech in my head and make sure I had it fully memorized. I closed my eyes, she shut up, and I dozed a bit until she finished up.

Thereafter, I posed as some kind of lecturer, always working on a new speech whenever I visited the dentist's office.
 

cafe

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Books are great social shields. So are iPods. I regularly shop and occasionally eat at restaurants with my headphones on. When I go for a walk in my neighborhood, if I'm not in the mood to chat, instead of my earbuds, I wear my big, ugly black headphones. Usually works. :D
 
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