[ENFP] Boy Advice for My ENFP Sister

[Zarathustra]

Sometimes the medicine doesn't taste so good, but you need to take it anyway.

I don't know if there's ever been an FP who simply took it without first putting up a fight.

Seeing as how you regularly implore TJs to listen to their Fi, I find your position oddly inconsistent.

 

[AgentF]

A lot of what you've mentioned about yourself definitely rings true for her, especially what you've said about her being intimidating to guys her own age. One of her biggest complaints is actually that the men she tends to attract are so much older. Like, 20-30 years older. And they hold positively zero interest for her. Was this true for you as well?

yeah, that was my experience. older men saw me as a challenge and an intriguing alternative to women their age (i could hold my own in conversations, had similar intellectual pursuits, was capable of admiring their accomplishments, was somewhat neutral about their interest, and importantly: had not yet formed ideas about what i did or didn't want in a relationship--i was malleable and doe-eyed).

it makes sense that young women like this are the ultimate challenge + ego boost for some older men: elusive, intellectual, highly discerning virgins in every sense of the word.

i eventually caved and dated a few of the old codgers who could keep up. i was their "bon bon" and they were my mentors. but i always bolted when they pressured me for sex--i needed more time to study them and decide whether i really wanted to open up to them as individuals...they were just eager to get to it. again: a challenge. conversely, it seemed that men my age never did figure out how to pro-actively engage me on all my levels; only later did i develop and use those latent ENFPish skills to coax them into participating in courtship as more equals. that happened when i learned to recognize and override their sense of intimidation and my desire for a more traditional courtship, by dabbling in seduction. essentially.

and then my dear, i was off to the races.

The men that she seems to be most attracted to are IFJs. She likes guys who are sensitive, nurturing, and maybe a little brooding. She definitely wants a Feeler. Someone who can match her emotional intensity. She was raised in a house with three TJs, and has limited patience for our kind. She wants someone who speaks her language and who revels in the nuances of emotional gestures as much she does. He also has to be extremely attractive. She's a lookist to the extreme, and tends to gravitate towards pretty boys. He'll also have to be pretty fucking smart, or he's not gonna make the cut either.

who is her male archetype? my father was an INTJ--what's your dad? if your sis is hesitant about involvement with other men, but has specific requirements, she has likely developed an ideal somewhere and is clinging to it. only with time and experience can she really refine it.

oh btw, many ENFPs seek the highest level of what their skill set tells them they can acquire (it has to do with an intense imagination, high ideals and watching what happens when we flex our powers of influence--and refining YES our ethics along the way). so, some of us have fun developing our seductive gifts, others our intellectual gifts, and some our ability to render others more vulnerable and reveal their inner worlds to us. beware the one who has mastered all of these (and a few more i'll leave out for brand integrity purposes).

i point all of this out simply because she may enjoy the feeling she gets when she brings down the big game: men with superlative intellect, good looks and an ability to handle her emotions.

also:

if she is as intelligent/beautiful and emotional as you say (and i'm sure she is) she might simply be looking for an equal companion and does not wish to settle. i don't blame her, but her choice is to protect herself and her ideals via emotional abstinence, or accept some form of compromise. and that process is essentially one of trial and error, and will take some time.

hope this helps...

 

[Coriolis]

I was hoping that someone might have advice/perspective to share for my ENFP sister.

Does she have many opportunities to interact with guys relatively close in age? If not, it might help to find some. Not dating or bar situations, but more like hobbies, clubs, community/volunteer groups, etc. where she can spend time with guys in no-pressure situations where dating is not even on the radar. This might help her relax around guys more, get to know a few just as friends, and see where things lead.

 

[flameskull95]

Maybe she should be more open to the opportunity. I'm not totally sure, but as an ENFP they condition their world around them through their Ne, so they understand situations before actually feeling or thinking about them. Maybe you should teach her to have a "take" at things with more 'initiative' than just doubtfulness when an opportunity arises. I'm probs the last person to give this advice to anyone as an INFP, who conditions everything through my own perspective, before actually understanding it. Anyway, if you can't teach her to 'open her heart' to people or situations that present some sort of 'love interest', (not to be cheesy)... make sure she can open her thinking or critical analysis, to perceive everything through how she thinks about it before considering it through her Ne or Fi. Make sure she uses her head or her Te, [the key] so she can think of "How did this situation come about", "What would happen if I keep doing what I'm doing" instead of "this is only what I understood from this". When ENFPs do this, their visionary capabilities usually are great enough to inspire people to do better themselves. Tell your sister that whenever she's scared she'll do the wrong thing, to anticipate 'future success' instead of present success. I have an ENFP sister, and she's older than me though, but I think she deviates between her Te function and can appear to be an ENXP, and that really gives her an advantage as she's usually the one that can keep everyone in our violent family 'in line' whenever we have arguments. It's a drive of taking initiative that your sister lacks.

 

[Elfboy]

I was hoping that someone might have advice/perspective to share for my ENFP sister.
My baby sister is beautiful, intelligent, and immensely charming, but genuinely struggles with boy-girl stuff. She's turning 20 this year and has yet to kiss a guy, much less date one. I only ask because it's the source of a great deal of consternation for her, and I'd like to be able to help.
From what I can tell it seems to break down to two somewhat related issues for her. She's got ridiculously high standards, and won't give 99.9% of guys the time of day. She's incredibly exacting about how she wants to be approached, and will brush a guy off in a heartbeat. Meanwhile, she's basically terrified of the opposite sex, so when one comes along that she does like, she's completely at a loss on how to interact with them. In fact, the only males she interacts with regularly are her gay guy friends.
She's talked to most of the women in my family, and we're all kind of at a loss on how to help her. At this point, the fear is that she will get swept off her feet by the wrong kind of guy and get her heartbroken.
Clearly, it's not exactly a life or death issue, but it weighs on her a lot. Any thoughts that ya'll would be willing to share would be appreciated.
(She's also a 6w7 if that's helpful.)

I think she should try a role reversal, find a guy she likes and try asking him out.

 

[Elfboy]

Sometimes the medicine doesn't taste so good, but you need to take it anyway.
I don't know if there's ever been an FP who simply took it without first putting up a fight.
Seeing as how you regularly implore TJs to listen to their Fi, I find your position oddly inconsistent.

I agree with this. your average NFP would benefit from a concentrated dose of Te. maybe I'm projecting a bit because I'm not the most productive, clear minded person atm, but many NFPs don't even seem to acknowledge that these things are important in the first place.

 

[Amargith]

Sometimes the medicine doesn't taste so good, but you need to take it anyway.

I don't know if there's ever been an FP who simply took it without first putting up a fight.

Seeing as how you regularly implore TJs to listen to their Fi, I find your position oddly inconsistent.

*warning, function drivel ahead*

This might be true for career stuff (and even then!), but it's bound to get her heart broken (not to mention potentially the poor guys she does this with) if she 'forces' love with Te.

Give her the proper time it takes to develop Fi(by feeding it with Ne) and *know* what it wants, or I guarantee you, disaster will ensue.

And I may implore Tjs to listen, but I never expect them to do it *my* way. They work differently and I expect no less than to have them have Fi as a voice in the back of their heads while having NiTe 'drive' as such. You should give FP's the same courtesy.

Force Te on an NeFi that isn't ready, that hasn't had the time to process or do its homework, and you will wreak a lot of emotional damage, on all parties involved. Her Si will be so traumatized, she'll never wanna repeat the experiment ever again.

You see this already with NFPs who 'jump' in for whatever reason and suck at wielding the Te hammer, having everyone curse at them and them going 'I didn't really mean it that way, I don't know what happened ' And this is when they voluntarily decide to do it (and therefore are blind to what the consequences will be), not when they're being forced by others, so it won't actually permanently wound their Si (the blindness prevents that, thank god).

Once again, give her NeFi time to catch up and prod Fi to get to work already and demand from Ne that it feed it real information instead of 'what if' scenarios. Right now she's not NeFi-ing, she's NeSi-ing (what if, omg, it'll be horrendous). Si is retaining all the scenarios Ne feeds it that are a disaster. And Fi is used as a barrier to keep that from happening as it's fueled by both her Si nightmares of reality and the idealistic dreams she's gathered from tv, books and her own aspirations. If anything needs to be pushed, it's Fi. Her Fi needs to learn to merge reality with her dreams in a for her acceptable way, and that takes time. As for Te, tell that thing to sit on its ass, behave and wait its turn, for realz. If she's smart, it'll get its marching orders when Fi is good and ready and not a moment sooner.

 

[Priori]

Coz then I'd recommend you get her all of Helen Fisher's books, starting with 'The anatomy of Love'.

Neat!

 

[wildflower]

Does she have many opportunities to interact with guys relatively close in age? If not, it might help to find some. Not dating or bar situations, but more like hobbies, clubs, community/volunteer groups, etc. where she can spend time with guys in no-pressure situations where dating is not even on the radar. This might help her relax around guys more, get to know a few just as friends, and see where things lead.

this. it sounds like she is quite perfectionistic and just reducing the pressure is a good way to deal with that. years ago i read some dating book and it suggested just going out and becoming friends with six guys. i think it is quite good advice as it takes the pressure off, it may or may not turn into something else later and you get to learn how to just be around guys and become more comfortable with them. [deleted my comment about getting professional help as i see she's only 20. she'll grow out of this.]

 

[kyuuei]

Chances are she'll get swept off her feet by the wrong guy and have her heart broken.. But that's part of life.

I don't have an issue with the opposite sex at all.. but I am still shy and nervous and don't really know how to date. I don't know how to create a connection because usually connections find their way into my life on their own. Making one is a process I haven't really trained on. But I can relate to much of what is said.. She's not wrong for having high standards, but what I frequently ended up doing was mistaking standards for excuses. A great question I found for myself is.. ".. While I know all of the bad and good I have done, I do love myself.. why do I think that I wouldn't love someone if they aren't perfect?" I think it is important to know the main ideas she wants out of a relationship, but she may not even realize she is destroying potential relationships based on nothing but assumptions. I realized I was being very cruel that way.. I wouldn't want someone to assume things about me without really getting to know me.

Anyways, if she's as awesome as you say she'll find someone that appreciates her. The question is will she appreciate others by then? She's probably destroyed a couple potentially good relationships (maybe not love, or marriage-potential, or even long term..) by procrastinating on changing the way she thinks and, honestly, growing up a bit. I acted the same way at around her age.. But in the end, if you can't be friends with males and feel comfortable around them, you really can't be much more to them. You have to understand what people need, and you have to know what you need so you can communicate it. Men aren't psychics, or miracle-workers.

 

[Udog]

It seems like one take-away is that this is fairly common [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION], and that it's likely your sis will come around with time.

So really, instead of trying to rush or force the issue, I'd just try and feed her as much valuable information as I could until time does it's thing. Not lecture her, mind you, but simply have 2 way conversations where you try and slip in some of the joys and dangers of dating. In particular, I'd try and find a way to have a conversation about what she thinks makes a man a good dad, and how those traits might express themselves in a early to mid 20s single, childless male. Not all of them are sexual turn-ons, so it'll be good to give her time to process that into her Fi model so she's equipped to make better decisions later.

Something else - is she in college? Perhaps part of the problem is that she's disgusted by the hook-up scene, and so rebels into her fantasy.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I haven't clarified my thoughts enough to post more substantively on the subject yet...

But most men aren't fans of this whole "lets see how many flaming hoops I can make a man jump through to get my approval."

 

[Zarathustra]

*warning, function drivel ahead*

Drivel for sure...

This might be true for career stuff (and even then!), but it's bound to get her heart broken (not to mention potentially the poor guys she does this with) if she 'forces' love with Te.

This is not what I suggested.

And I may implore Tjs to listen, but I never expect them to do it *my* way. They work differently and I expect no less than to have them have Fi as a voice in the back of their heads while having NiTe 'drive' as such. You should give FP's the same courtesy.

Apparently, you still have a highly reactionary negative response to Te, cuz that's what I *am* recommending.

You see this already with NFPs who 'jump' in for whatever reason and suck at wielding the Te hammer...

I'm not imploring her to go around "Te bitch-slapping" (as much as I hate that term) people.

I'm saying she needs to hear (and eventually be able to tell herself) an objective Te message about how her current Fi values ain't cuttin it, cuz they ain't the right ones.

Once again, give her NeFi time to catch up and prod Fi to get to work already and demand from Ne that it feed it real information instead of 'what if' scenarios.

How do you think it's supposed to determine what is real information and what is not?

Of all the functions ENFPs have regular access to, Te is the one that does that job.

Ne comes up with what-if scenarios -- that's what it does.

Te, properly used, is what prunes those many possibilities down to what's actually objectively real.

If anything needs to be pushed, it's Fi. Her Fi needs to learn to merge reality with her dreams in a for her acceptable way, and that takes time. As for Te, tell that thing to sit on its ass, behave and wait its turn, for realz. If she's smart, it'll get its marching orders when Fi is good and ready and not a moment sooner.

You're all mixed up here.

You implore the right thing (a dose of reality), but then fail to see what function does that for an ENFP.

@bolded: that merging of reality, that is Te coming in and regulating her subjective opinions (Fi) with a dose of objective truth (Te).

 

[Amargith]

The result will be the reality check, which is why Te is last in order. But before you can get there, Fi needs to actually figure out what it wants. Perhaps you're right...perhaps Te can play an advisory role as to what is to be expected from reality, but I still feel that pushing her to actually *do* something with Te is detrimental. Let her learn, ready, mull things over, play about with concepts and see if she can use Fi (and perhaps Te, as long as it behaves), to deepen her understanding of what it is she truly wants out of life. And only then is it Te's turn to actually figure out how to accomplish that. Thinkin about that before you've done the evaluation process with Fi can be incredibly scary and make you wanna turn around and run however, speaking from personal experience..

As for your Te message...forcing it down the throat of someone who's scared shitless (terrified Si), and has only her Fi to defend her, is about as cruel as you can get. Im not saying that that's what you're suggesting, but it is what I'm warning against, as I know that NTJs in their desire to help you out and give you that loving kick in the tuckus sometimes go that route and it does more damage than you know. What I am suggesting is to feed her Te-information through her Ne for her Fi to contemplate without pressure (which is why i suggested those books, they're based on scientific and empirical data). Granted, I'll admit that I didn't realize that that info could be construed as Te (Te to me is the thing that screams at me to do something already and stop being such a whimp...aka an impatient bully. Not my fondest experience).

 

[Mia.]

ETA: i didn't have low self-esteem, i simply had no self-esteem specific to relationships. thus far, i had found deep satisfaction from exploring intellectual pursuits with my INTJ best friend (in many ways, that relationship probably carved the important neural pathways that would later dictate what i wanted in relationships).

 

[Zarathustra]

Perhaps you're right...perhaps Te can play an advisory role as to what is to be expected from reality, but I still feel that pushing her to actually *do* something with Te is detrimental.

I never said anything about Te pushing her to do something.

That's your input that, for some reason *nudge nudge*, you read into my words.

Let her learn, ready, mull things over, play about with concepts and see if she can use Fi (and perhaps Te, as long as it behaves), to deepen her understanding of what it is she truly wants out of life. And only then is it Te's turn to actually figure out how to accomplish that. Thinkin about that before you've done the evaluation process with Fi can be incredibly scary and make you wanna turn around and run however, speaking from personal experience..

As someone who has been "critiqued" for suggesting a relationship between Te and the slave-driving action, I feel the need to let you know that you have far too strong a paradigm of thinking that's what Te is all about.

Te is also about looking at the objective facts and taking a very sober view of reality.

This often then gets followed up by the slave-driving action, but all I suggested was the first part.

Believe it or not, Fi endlessly mulling stuff over doesn't necessarily lead to the right conclusion.

As much as you may value your Fi, it still needs to be counterbalanced by other functions.

Just like Te needs to be counterbalanced by Fi, Fi needs to be counterbalanced by Te.

All functions become unhealthy if not counterbalanced by their opposite function.

Granted, I'll admit that I didn't realize that that info could be construed as Te (Te to me is the thing that screams at me to do something already and stop being such a whimp...aka an impatient bully. Not my fondest experience).

Yes, well, while Te can obviously be that slave-driver, I would suggest that this also has a lot to do with what I would call your own problematic relationship with Te.

Turn the tables and have an NTJ saying analogous kind of stuff about Fi, and you certainly would think they have it all wrong.

There's a reason for that. And it's not that you're wrong when you're thinking about Fi and NTJs.

 

[Amargith]

I have no qualms admitting my shady relationship with Te, nor my lack of understanding. I do marvel at it in others, but resent it in myself. Im not sure how other NFPs relate to this, but Te to me often feels like the pressure to perform already, do something efficient and useful (society doesn't help). And we are talking about a young ENFP here. While the realistic touch of Te is definitely what she needs, as it can help her get unstuck with that NeSi- Fi??? loop, you also have to keep in mind that since we don't use it with the same mastery as you guys, its use and reliability are limited at best. Hence I usually use outside Te sources to get myself unstuck. I just don't trust my own...rational judgement. For NTJs this can seem amusing (mine certainly seems to think so), coz I do way more work than he'd ever do..but then he is way more capable than me to use a nugget of info to its full advantage by inferring the rest. If I do that, mine just screams that I'm useless for not getting this shit and worse, I'm using it to stall. If she's anywhere like that, forcing her to rely on that...is not a good plan. Relying on big ENTJ sis for a reality check (if the trust is there, which I don't doubt) however...might work

That is..if she's willing and open to a reality check and if you give her the space to play with it. Otherwise you'll just get doorslammed and she'll retreat back in her fantasy cocoon.

Make sense?

Ps: as for reading into your words..I didn't, I merely 'forgot' about that side of Te. I responded that way to the way I experience Te myself, not to you, my dear. And yes, I would reply in equal fierceness if you treated Fi this way

To sum up our little argument: I don't necessarily disagree with your message,I am just warning against 'specialists syndrome'. I'm afraid that what you're suggesting might go over her head and scare her shitless instead of draw her out of her shell and give her time to absorb the info you're wanting to provide.

 

[Mia.]

Second, I don't feel that telling her that boys are just as scared as you are, so cut them some slack, or calling her out for fronting for her insecurity are really effective ways of addressing the underlying insecurity issues. Then again, I don't really know. She's so sensitive that we really don't have "Come to Jesus" chats with her, and especially not with a subject like this. I dunno. I just have the distinct feeling that she would double down rather than seeing that all she was being told was, "Hey, get over yourself and get into the game." Nothing is just that simple for her. .

Insecurity stems from a lack of proper/incomplete perspective (unless it is based on a solid grasp of reality and a genuine threat – but in this case, you’ve indicated she’s bright, beautiful, etc. etc.). It is often hyper-focusing in its mechanism. What specifically is she insecure about?

The antidote for lack of perspective is increased perspective. She needs to pan out the lens. Empathy is a great component to a more complete perspective. Seeing these guys as worthwhile human beings in their own right, rather than a prospective source of good feelings/there to impress her would be a good thing.

You can’t control her response, but if gently delivered, truth, i.e. objective reality and its governing principles, will usually do its own work over time sooner or later. You’re just trying to give her the shortcut.

 

[Zarathustra]

Relying on big ENTJ sis for a reality check (if the trust is there, which I don't doubt) however...might work

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

To sum up our little argument: I don't necessarily disagree with your message,I am just warning against 'specialists syndrome'. I'm afraid that what you're suggesting might go over her head and scare her shitless instead of draw her out of her shell and give her time to absorb the info you're wanting to provide.

And I don't disagree with this; it is tough from the Te users' point of view. You guys really don't seem to listen to the objective Te message, so then it becomes like "shaken baby syndrome". We try to tell you, you don't listen. We try to tell you again, you still don't listen. We try to tell you a third time, you still don't listen, so now we're frustrated and start shaking the baby.

The sad thing is, and, honestly, I've had enough personal experience with this and heard it from enough other ENFPs: you guys really need that dose of reality, and, whether or not you listen to us, it's gunna come and hit you smack in the face one day.

Some ENFPs are probably better at it than others, just as some NTJs are better with their Fi, but it just hurts everyone around you when you don't wise up and listen to the objective message everybody is trying to give you.

*cue the NFP's (e4?) wallowing in guilt for hurting her loved ones, but still not doing what is necessary to fix things*

 

[Amargith]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] I just showed this to my INTJ and his instant reply was: ' Just do it!' and my instant response was:' NOooooooo'

Telling me to 'just do it' just adds pressure and doesn't help me one bit. You (= general ntj) basically told me to grow up and get over myself, but you didn't bother to tell me what I needed to hear, coz it's so *bloody* obvious to you guys. For instance, I'm currently working on a project that scares the living daylights out of me, and he just tells me to 'go out and do it'. What I needed from him wasn't to hear that, I need him to help me figure out what the next step is, what the follow up step is, what to look out for and how to monitor results. Yes, this is mindbogglingly easy for you guys and it takes forever but it isn't clear to me and it's what causes me to look like I'm dawdling..especially if you won't even bother to help me out and just pressure me.

Shake me all you want, but you won't get me to stop trembling in a corner by shaking me. Walking me through the steps however, and actually going through the boring basic stuff with me, and giving me the space to actually interpret it *my* way without rushing me.....that's how it works. I'll be your star pupil, if you'll just 'show me the work' and be a wee bit patient with me, as well as not expect me to value it or master it the same way you do. Go too fast, be impatient and show your disappointment and I freeze, shifting my focus from learning to pleasing you instead and appeasing you...hardly effective for learning the subject at hand.

And that is why I prefer books. No person to get pissy at me, nobody looking at the time, sighing, pummeling me for daring to take longer than they think it should take, nobody to appease or please. Just me, and my curiosity.