[MBTI General] Ni in xNFJs? =\

[Ribonuke]

Okay, so I'm wondering about the use of Introverted Intuition in xNFJs.

[MENTION=10033]Daedalus[/MENTION] made a thread similarly discussing Ni (link: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/56398-how-does-ni-work-some-thoughts.html ), but I was wondering what it would look like in someone with a more Fe-based perspective? (It's probably the same for xNxJs, but I felt like I'd more likely attract the opinion of fellow NFs in this forum instead.)

For me, Ni just came naturally. I often come to conclusions that seem blatantly obvious to me, yet seem unique and insightful to others. One of my friends was apparently jealous of my ability to 'cross-reference' everything, to relate things to eachother or think of things that she had not considered in our creative endeavors. This is because I'm always consulting my previous knowledge for new possibilities or insights as a means of understanding the world. In other words, I want to relate new data to my internal understanding of the workings of the world; basically, instead of reaching out and discovering new possibilities, I reach WITHIN and work on comparing this situation with what I already know.

One might argue that this sounds like Si, but from what I understand, Si has more to do with comparing a new situation to something previously experienced or looking into something down to the most basic facts. However, what I'm doing here is instead of comparing it to something I've already experienced, I'm trying actively MERGE this new external reality with what I already know. So it's remapping the situation from a bird's-eye view, basically as if I'm noticing a new landscape, then ADDING it to my internal map, instead of saying "Well...this isn't on the map! I have no idea!" which'd be (I think) more of an Si reaction. (I apologize if that comes off as offensive to any predominantly Si-users; I didn't mean for it to be so!)

((Haha, also, I just noticed that my worry about Si-users taking offense to that statement was an instance of Ni and Fe; I was composing that sentence, and then I realized that others could potentially view that sentence in a pejorative way, hence the disclaimer highlighting that possibility and clarifying my more neutral intent.))

So...any insights?

 

[SoraMayhem]

To illustrate Ni + Fe, allow me to post a conversation that I had only a few moments ago with a male INFJ friend.

Me:btw, guess why i'll be in illinois in november
INFJ:Why? =o
INFJ:Getting married or something?
Me:My honeymoon >.>
Me:WTF
Me:HOW DID YOU DO THAT
INFJ:xD I'Z PASYCHIC
Me:SERIOUSLY ARE YOU A WIZARD
INFJ:lololol
Me: but wow
Me: lucky guess
INFJ: Well, not so much lucky as I just love my friends and have an acute sense of empathy.
INFJ: Even if I haven't talked to friends in ages, I normally can guess what they've been up to down to relationships, fights in said relationships, job things. etc

Smacked me in the face with Ni+Fe right there.

 

[Reverie]

I like the kaleidoscope analogy someone has used on this forum (I can't remember who. My memory is terrible. )
I'm just going to be quite candid about what some of my experience of what could be termed as Ni related phenomena is, despite the snickerability and "I bet" factor being incredibly high. Oh well. Here goes:
I have a voracious appetite when it comes to anything that piques my interest, though my tastes are eclectic with a couple of favorite areas I use as a reference point. Everything that seems interesting for some reason is filed somewhere in the great unseen index of the mind for later use. I think I'm a person who is very guided by my unconscious mind. It kind of works via a type of meta-awareness. I pay attention to where my attention is going in the outside world. If I notice I've been noticing maybe a specific animal like an owl many times over more than usual I'd take that as an interesting thing to look at. I often find out what let's say an owl means in different contexts and since I write I go back to the themes I've been working on. I kind of work as an investigator and usually what happens is in this indirect way I can suddenly get an epiphany about my own life and what direction I should go. The whole owl business was about death and rebirth, letting go and a specific incident in my life that I had neglected to deal with and approaching ends. This time I was also kind of forewarned by my mind of deaths that were going to occur (Elderly people so the signs were there.)
That's one way it works for me.
I also create in a way that I mull over my areas of interest, which are very related to human interests or arts. I'm always working on something, a long term project, and what happens is I'm usually somewhere inconvenient, like the bank or the shower and suddenly everything comes together. It' like taking down dictation. Somewhere the clogs have turned and I get a rush of material that gives an overall piece of work nearly complete in my mind. The theme, visuals, bits of lyric, it's like a movie starts playing in my mind.
I've noticed these themes usually emerge in the cultural field a little after, sometimes in a startlingly similar way. I can only suspect they are a kind of an incoming cultural meme, some issues mulling in the collective unconscious which influence me, but as I pay so much attention to my own thoughts, feelings and dreams and am a part of the world sometimes the greater movements kind of get filtered through my personality and I become faintly aware of them before they start to really manifest properly so that they are readily apparent, get refined and become in time a part of the now. It's a running joke me and my ENFJ friend have when we meet, they'll say something like "What have you been up to" and I'll say "I've been looking into self sufficiency and buying a house in the countryside" and they'll say "Me too, of course" and we'll laugh our butts off. Maybe it's the same area too. I's like having an inside joke, because of the thermometer of society way we operate. We usually start having similar thoughts as they start emerging out of the collective hive mind. It's very funny if you're aware of it.
I find that my ENFJ friends are very good at predicting peoples' behavior and reading people. I mean very, very good. Two people I know who would almost qualify as psychic are both ENFJs. I have my moments of sudden epiphanies, though that has to be clearly distinguished from the other 95% of the time, where your guess is as good as mine, maybe better. It doesn't work that way for me. It's kinda like a fart. Sometimes you can guess it's coming but most of the time it happens when you least want it to. To me it's like having this annoying all knowing oracle guy in my head. I'm minding my own business and suddenly there it is. To illustrate how annoying it is, I had once been through a terrible time, I was utterly been at the bottom, very depressed. Little by little I start pulling myself up by my boot straps and things start going my way, that's when I meet this amazing guy. We become thick as thieves, move in together and sun is shining on me like never before. We're walking down the street and he says "We're in this together, right till the end." and I say "Yes". In my mind I hear the little oracle say "No. Two and a half years.". I decide to ignore it. But the little bugger is always right. I'm wrong, but that part of me is very very accurate. I can see others find that annoying, trust me, I do too. It happens very rarely though. And always when I don't want it to especially. I can kind of convince myself of something like the next guy, but I also have that "oracle" too, and the oracle means business. It's also lead me into very embarrassing situations where if I'm distracted by shiny objects or something I can just come out and say what's on my mind. Once I was at a friend's new bfs house and he said "I'm a bit of a yuppie" I said Nah, don't be so hard on yourself...If you were there'd be a blue bottle of schnapps in your closet there with pretentious mini glasses with a record collection comprising of a Sade, Enya and Toto cd. He looked at me very angrily and opened his closet...Lo and behold. Try fixing that fiasco. Way to go Ni. Make me popular.
Being able to put things in several contexts and rewriting things is something I'm very happy about because I can help people if they get stuck with seeing something in a certain unhealthy way. It ain't all bad. And re-contextualizing known myths can also empower people in a larger capacity. It's healing and good.

 

[Ribonuke]

[MENTION=14212]Reverie[/MENTION]

xDDD I can't quote that whole post because it's so long, but there were quite a few things in there I felt like I could relate to: the idea that something keeps occurring to you on a subconscious level, such as your example with owls, which then piques your curiosity to the point where you look up information about it to see how it ties into your life.

Also, I think your example with the little oracle in your mind predicting the impermanence of your relationship with that one guy rings true to me as well; however, the visions or impressions I get are completely my own, and not necessarily distanced from them in a way as if there were a little entity inside my head.

For instance, there's this one song by Pendulum called "Hold Your Colour" that always seems to leave me unsettled whenever I think about it; usually I don't mind music like this, but what was bothering me about this particular song was that I didn't know WHY I felt unsettled. I listened to it again yesterday, and realized it was giving me an impression of pregnancy and conception. Sure enough, when I look at the lyrics, my conclusion seemed to make more and more sense. While this is arguably not what Pendulum had in mind when they wrote this song, what matters is that I felt emotionally perturbed by the song without a conscious reason, but then the reason all of a sudden surfaced without warning.

So it's basically like...I get the impression of something first, but then I have to retrace my steps to figure out WHY I had that impression? This is in contrast to how some other people draw a conclusion based off of consciously piecing together the facts or expanding upon possibilities.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I like the kaleidoscope analogy someone has used on this forum (I can't remember who. My memory is terrible. )

This analogy was used by [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] in this thread here:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56398&p=1882816

 

[Reverie]

[MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION] Thank you. My head's a sieve. I loved it because I think it illustrates it well. In my mind I can easily see Ni in that way. Constantly shifting and permutating.

I was thinking about the difference between Fi which I think of as a mossy, organic, branching tree.

(I got sidetracked...)
[MENTION=15358]Ribonuke[/MENTION] I don't think it's an entity either, though I could see why it could feel like that to someone. But frankly I'm undecided about how to talk about it. I can't say this or that about what it is...Ni or what. It just happens.
I'm somewhat into the paranormal and have had experiences that defy any rationale...so I'm in judgement pending mode. Right now I really like MBTI ( giving it the old let's suppose all of it is true and reframe everything via MBTI ) and like the explanations and the model, but as is often stated sometimes INFJs can hold on to many seemingly contradicting beliefs at the same time. I reserve the suspension of disbelief on paranormal issues since I like to also know what excactly it is I'm not beliveing. It also appears many who view life in that context don't believe things work like that objectively, but subjectively it's different. It's really complex. I don't think I explained well what I'm after. But maybe it's best not to be calling it the oracle...I don't know... head voices... er... no, that's not good! ixnay on the voices.

 

[Fidelia]

Ni is the reason I suck at telling people about movies I saw or why I have difficulty sticking to an outline on an essay. Every detail is relevant and it's hard to hit the high points because everything is interconnected. I never realized that until a little while ago.

On the other hand, I've also been surprised to realize that Ni is the Look-Down-The-Road function that allows one to usually predict where a course of action may likely lead a person to. I have been frustrated and surprised that this is not as self-evident to other types, but finally noticed that the other people who do this are Ni users. It also has helped me to undesrtand that I am not being rude or insulting by explaining the whole thought process behind the conclusions I have reached, and in fact people feel frustrated or confused when I don't. While it is not 100% infallible, it is correct enough of the time, that I have found this trait quite useful in decision making.

 

[Kalach]

For me, Ni just came naturally. I often come to conclusions that seem blatantly honest to me, yet seem unique and insightful to others.

Interesting word use, there.

In my humble estimation, although it's usually not especially obvious to the person, and they'll probably even resist the assertion of it (I know I did), perception and judgment go together, meaning Ni isn't Ni so much as it's Ni(Ji). Actually, it's Ni(JeJiPe), but when it's active and groovin, it's Ni(Ji).... or some such nonsense.

Blah blah blah, and all I really means is, there's something really interesting there about how introverted perceiving structured by introverted "objectivity" is (possibly quite) different to that perception as structured by introverted "subjectivity" (aka "feelings").

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Interesting word use, there.

In my humble estimation, although it's usually not especially obvious to the person, and they'll probably even resist the assertion of it (I know I did), perception and judgment go together, meaning Ni isn't Ni so much as it's Ni(Ji). Actually, it's Ni(JeJiPe), but when it's active and groovin, it's Ni(Ji).... or some such nonsense.

Blah blah blah, and all I really means is, there's something really interesting there about how introverted perceiving structured by introverted "objectivity" is (possibly quite) different to that perception as structured by introverted "subjectivity" (aka "feelings").

Yeah, it is kind of bizarre how- and I’ve noticed this too (as much about myself as other INFJs I’ve known, a couple INTJs too)- that it can *seem* like one is simply noticing something ‘obvious’ about the external world but it’s actually mixed with judgment. Judgment is what arranges the puzzle pieces, puts them together a certain way- and it’ll seem like we’re noticing the way something *is* (without it seeming like we have judgment about it) but Ti and Fi can be bigger influences than we realize. Especially since it's so often correct, it's easy to take for granted.

 

[Kalach]

Yeah, it is kind of bizarre how- and I’ve noticed this too (as much about myself as other INFJs I’ve known, a couple INTJs too)- that it can *seem* like one is simply noticing something ‘obvious’ about the external world but it’s actually mixed with judgment. Judgment is what arranges the puzzle pieces, puts them together a certain way- and it’ll seem like we’re noticing the way something *is* (without it seeming like we have judgment about it) but Ti and Fi can be bigger influences than we realize. Especially since it's so often correct, it's easy to take for granted.

I assert it's progressive, though. At one (probably relatively high) level, Ni is bundles of concepts plus some constructive perception principle. But in order for the "function" to be dynamic, or even just minimally alive, then the bundles and the construction of the bundles have, in some sense, to be the same thing.... Pffft, that might not even be true, but it (maybe) captures what seems to me an important aspect of even inner perception: that it is never still. Judgment introduces some much needed fixity, even as this never stillness also introduces movement to that judgment. Et voila, progress.

But it does depend quite a lot on--I want to say subjectivity.

So it's interesting how there's different language the INFJs and the INTJs appear to use for that subjectivity. I noted the use of the word "honest" above, and I was aware of it as (or at least perceived it as being used as) an evaluation of a perception, and I doubted I would ever call a perception honest, so I though HAHA, INTROVERTED THINKING! And I've wondered for a long time what difference the presence of that makes.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

So it's interesting how there's different language the INFJs and the INTJs appear to use for that subjectivity. I noted the use of the word "honest" above, and I was aware of it as (or at least perceived it as being used as) an evaluation of a perception, and I doubted I would ever call a perception honest, so I thought HAHA, INTROVERTED THINKING! And I've wondered for a long time what difference the presence of that makes.

I can’t speak for [MENTION=15358]Ribonuke[/MENTION], but I’m going to guess s/he didn’t mean [subtext:] “I’m just being OMG1HONEST11PURETRUTH!!” so much as a breezy “I’m just being honest about stuff that’s occurring to me and others think it’s insightful (but I’m not *trying* to be insightful, it’s just the stuff that occurs to me).” That’s how I read it at first, anyway- how I interpreted “blatantly honest” (as offensive to Fi sensibilities as that may be). [So…..HAHA, INTROVERTED FEELING? And yeah, it's interesting how the language does reflect the unconscious priorities.]

And I think ideally it’s progressive, but sometimes people get stuck. [That’s when the real magic of Ni happens, and the victims left in its wake sometimes flock to online INFJ doorslam threads to perpetuate the magic ripples with others. A good time is had by all.]

 

[Kalach]

I can’t speak for [MENTION=15358]Ribonuke[/MENTION], but I’m going to guess s/he didn’t mean [subtext:] “I’m just being OMG1HONEST11PURETRUTH!!” so much as a breezy “I’m just being honest about stuff that’s occurring to me and others think it’s insightful (but I’m not *trying* to be insightful, it’s just the stuff that occurs to me).”

I'm trying to think of the INTJ correlate. Maybe there isn't one. Machines and impersonal organisational structures don't often come back with a surprised, wow, I didn't know you knew that about me.

And I think ideally it’s progressive, but sometimes people get stuck. [That’s when the real magic of Ni happens, and the victims left in its wake sometimes flock to online INFJ doorslam threads to perpetuate the magic ripples with others. A good time is had by all.]

LOL. Yes.

Actually, I think it may be axiomatic that people get stuck. It's more or less guaranteed that judgment lags behind perception AND THAT FROM THE BEGINNING JUDGMENT IS CORRUPT! How can it not be? It starts forming when you're an infant, how can it not have all sorts of weird, unexamined components that even can't be examined because they're so fundamental to whatever came later.

Pffft, I seem to have ended up, as always, at some claim that the nature of the dominant consciousness is substantially determined by that which remains unconscious.

That's a bit weird, though. It takes dominant functioning for granted.

 

[Ribonuke]

xD oops, guys, I meant "obvious", not "honest", that was a typo.

*HIDES*

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm trying to think of the INTJ correlate. Maybe there isn't one. Machines and impersonal organisational structures don't often come back with a surprised, wow, I didn't know you knew that about me.

You know, honestly*, I’ve thought before that the word “objective” is a good example of that correlate. You guys (Te’ers) throw that word around like it’s an Se example* or something. You all are pretty cavalier with it, and it took me awhile to realize you don’t mean “ZOMG11OBJECTIVE1PURETRUTH11!!” every time you use it. [Both the way we use language and the way we ‘hear’ it reflects the unconscious priorities. And yeah, it is kinda troubling how, no matter how hard we try, it seems like making those priorities totally conscious is like living on a beach and making sure no sand gets into the house…..it’s always already just a matter of being as vigilant as possible with it, but hoping for that moment where we’re completely free of it is kinda futile.]

xD oops, guys, I meant "obvious", not "honest", that was a typo.

*HIDES*

Yeah, that’s kinda how I automatically read it.




*

 

[skylights]

It's more or less guaranteed that judgment lags behind perception AND THAT FROM THE BEGINNING JUDGMENT IS CORRUPT! How can it not be? It starts forming when you're an infant, how can it not have all sorts of weird, unexamined components that even can't be examined because they're so fundamental to whatever came later.

Pffft, I seem to have ended up, as always, at some claim that the nature of the dominant consciousness is substantially determined by that which remains unconscious.

That's a bit weird, though. It takes dominant functioning for granted.

Actually what's to say judgment lags behind perception? The way the human body is structured, the way the brain is structured, it may well be that we have certain built-in judgment structures from day 0. Even infants have to prioritize. And perception can be corrupt, too. Lord knows N perception takes in all sorts of things that are vastly different from S perception, and Ni perception different from Ne perception. Our personal quirks and differences completely corrupt any semblance of "reality", if there is even a "reality" to begin with. The world could possibly be far more vast and dazzling than we'll ever be able to see, much less make decisions about. And since your dom is what's encouraging your other functions to differentiate, it's screwing them over as much as your subconscious is screwing your dom over.

So basically everyone is fucked.



I was really hoping I'd come to a more inspiring and thread-pertinent conclusion than that.

 

[The Great One]

This analogy was used by The Great One in this thread here:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56398&p=1882816

I totally rock

 

[Reverie]

I totally rock

You do. I thought it was pretty awesome.

 

[The Great One]

You do. I thought it was pretty awesome.

I'm glad to know that others know that I rock as well.

 

[SubtleFighter]

For my thoughts on Ni, I'll copy and paste myself from another thread (I tried to edit it to make sense by itself, but I apologize if I missed something that related to a previous post in the other thread):

Ni is pretty future-focused. It's like . . . over the course of a lifetime, someone using Ni takes in all the information that they've ever received or encountered through study or through living life (Se data) and then tries to make universal principles out of it. Then they use these principles when they encounter what's happening now to try to figure out what will most likely happen in the future, and using what's happening now to add to their universal principles.

For an example of Ni principles, take the song "Affirmation" by Savage Garden (one of my favorite bands), lyrics written by Darren Hayes (who I believe to be ENFJ). One line says "I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you." The principle: things that are bad for you generally seem more fun/desirable because of the person believing they're bad for them. So if someone using Ni believes this principle to be true, then when they're with someone else who's trying to decide between two things that are otherwise equal but one they believe is healthy and the other less than healthy (doesn't have to be food-related at all), the Ni-user will probably conclude that this other person will be naturally drawn to what they believe is unhealthy (although whether the person actually chooses this unhealthy thing is far more complicated).

Or, for instance, if I'm with a good friend who I've known for years, I've accumulated information over the years about what things they're likely to do when and under what circumstances. So when certain circumstances come up, it's almost an unconscious process that I will get hunches saying "This person is likely to do ____ because of being in these circumstances." But the hunch is based on info of what this person has done over the years; it's not out of nowhere.

But there are two caveats: there's not always a hunch. There isn't always enough accumulated "Se data" or principles built up for every situation, and sometimes I get no hunch at all even if I really, really want one! The other caveat is that sometimes I'll see a couple likely scenarios that will happen because of a couple pieces of information that I don't have. Sometimes I'll think things like: "If this person is doing this for reason X, then they will mostly likely do action A. But if they're actually doing it for reason Y, then they will most likely do action B." And the disparity in my thinking is because of not having the information of whether they're doing it for reason X or Y. But it's not a million and one possibilities.

I get an Ni hunch, then I will analyze it further in my own head, mostly trying to make it more clear to myself. Sometimes it will be a really vague notion, and I'll need to wait for it to become more clear. Or sometimes it's a clear notion, but the reasoning behind it is not so clear (not at all that it's not there or not valid, it's just that it's less in focus), and so I'll work on trying to make the reasoning more clear (using Ti) so that I can explain it to others if asked.

I want to add too that Ni isn't all about finding "one possibility." Since it's a perceiving function, it's always working to refine itself. And looking at multiple perspectives is also a big part of what Ni is. It's like looking at something through different lenses and believing that all of these lenses are valid and needed in order to see the complete picture. For instance, if you're looking at a novel, you might examine it through the perspective of characters, and then through setting, and then through theme, etc. Or if you're an English major, it might be through gender theory, New Criticism, deconstruction of binaries, etc. Someone using Ni would believe that all of these perspectives (and many others) are needed to fully understand the novel (the object) completely, and they could shift talking from one perspective to another perspective and still feel like they're still talking about the same whole object, even if one perspective seems to contradict the other. But this is different than multiple possibilities.

 

[SubtleFighter]

Ni is the reason I suck at telling people about movies I saw or why I have difficulty sticking to an outline on an essay. Every detail is relevant and it's hard to hit the high points because everything is interconnected. I never realized that until a little while ago.

Indeed. And add Ti into the mix, and every detail is even more relevant. That's why I had to train myself to be really Te when writing an essay (not to mention this is the way that English teachers want essays to be formatted).