[Fe] Fe and morality

[cascadeco]

Personally, I am quite strongly superego-driven, and it's often very hard for me to separate my own values from my parents' values - perhaps it was just a good match-up, or perhaps their influence on me has been profound - though the truth is both, I'm sure. Whereas my ENFJ best friend is fairly balanced between ego and superego drive, and she is essentially the same - on a couple points, she, like me, is clearly split from them (our welcoming versus their hesitance to accept a rainbow of sexualities is probably the most notable example), but she also melds with them in many cases. I think enneagram plays a big role in this, too. You, being Fi and 7, are doubly removed from the influence of the outside world on your values, but my 6 balances my Fi and her 3 balances her Fe. I suspect my values would differ somewhat were I privy to different information than that with which I was raised.

I think it's important for us to recognize that adopting values from outside influences isn't simply a mindless absorption... I think it's easy for Fi to feel like it is, but that process recognizes that there is a type of wisdom that resides in the spaces between people which is inaccessible to the self as an island. Fi is good for developing our own personal values and is very live-and-let-live, but when it comes to instituting values in a shared setting - a university, for example - Fe has a better idea of how we can get along together, optimizing the differences between people and minimizing conflict.

Yes, I think it's important to highlight that there's going to be a gradient amongst Fe-users, as well as Fi-users, in terms of how much of an impact the external might have. So much of a gradient that I end up being unsure how meaningful/true it is to maintain notions like Fe users more often saying 'I was raised to believe...', and Fi users not saying things like that. I don't think it's cut and dry like that.

To uumlaus' point, these functions don't operate on their own, and all of the other functions influence how they will play out.

Also related to his point, other functions can and do impact ones' personal value system and how one 'decides' what they value. I have used this example often in discussions like this on here, but it's because I think it serves a purpose: My ISTJ mother, who has zero Fe, is very much a product of how she was raised, and the generation/community/value system she was raised in. She is more 'conventional' in her beliefs of right/wrong, and what you should and shouldn't do, as per how she was raised and the lens she looked through via growing up in the 50's and 60's, than I am having grown up in the 80's/90's. My values/beliefs have often diverged greatly from those of my peers, and I don't think I'm deluded in thinking that many of my values are self-derived, after much reflection.

I think it is why I prefer to view Fe in a more utilitarian/pragmatic sense, rather than tying values into it. For myself, Fe is about interpersonal dynamics, and weighing other peoples' needs/views in the context of the 1:1 convo we're having, or the work environment I'm trying to work in. Taking things as they are, and working with that reality, trying to morph it slowly if I don't agree with it as it currently stands (and I often don't agree with it, in whatever context I find myself in). Maybe it's that from the outside, because I am trying to work with it, it appears I must therefore fully buy into it. This is not the case. It's more that I view all of it as the current 'reality', which I HAVE to work with - take it as it is - and then try to enact changes based on how it is and where I think things should move, esp. if I think things are really messed up as they currently stand (these comments are mostly applicable to a larger group - i.e. a Work Environment). It's like a big organism composed of a bunch of individuals who I know have their own individual value systems, some aligning with the 'group values/culture', some who are not aligned, and everything in between.

I view my own values as distinctly separate from those of everyone around me, and often-times I don't find my own values relevant to the situation I am in (i.e. I'm not going to wax poetic on nature/the environment while I'm on the job in a corporate setting, because I'm here to do an analyst job tied to something utterly different, with corporate politics). And, in the end, it's about my trying to get along with people to accomplish the task at hand. There's nothing more than that. It doesn't mean I don't ruffle feathers or raise red flags, or make it clear when I disagree with some aspect of the culture, it just means that I am distinctly aware of what everyones' trigger points and concerns are in the environment, so I know what they want addressed. I'm also aware of how immersed everyone is or is not in the 'culture', and if I try to push at it many times and it's unmovable, I either need to continue to try to enact change in a more long-term mode, or I need to leave if I really can't stomach it. Sometimes the latter is the case.

I'll be sensitive to those dynamics so as to accomplish what needs to be done, and get the projects rolling forward. I'm using work as an example because I think it's relevant; I absolutely don't take ON the values of my organization, and am in fact many aspects rub me the wrong way and I have pushed back and questioned a fair amount, but you can only do so much and change of a cultural sort takes a long while to take hold, if it ever does. So I either roll with it to a degree, if I recognize it's never going to change and am generally 'ok' with the gist of all of it, or I leave if I'm not.

 

[The Great One]

great observation!
so basically you're saying Fe is deductive morality and Fi is inductive morality? makes sense. similarly, I think Fe morality tends to come much more for the superego while Fi morality is more visceral (Fe often seems to have a bias of "it worked in the past, therefore it's right")

Fe types will often say things like "I was raised to believe...." or "it's difficult reprogramming what my parents taught me was right" The Great One and I have talked about this at length). for strong Fi users on the other hand, values are just "there" and we're often left thinking "your parents created your values for you? ". for me, even as early as 5, I had my own ideas of right and wrong and, apart from a short period of time in which I tried to change them and failed miserably, they really have not changed much. I can honestly say that my values would be the same if I grew up in the slums of India, on the Communist Block, in an African tribe or in the courts of the Victorian aristocracy.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I have problems creating my own moral system.

 

[xisnotx]

great observation!
so basically you're saying Fe is deductive morality and Fi is inductive morality? makes sense. similarly, I think Fe morality tends to come much more for the superego while Fi morality is more visceral (Fe often seems to have a bias of "it worked in the past, therefore it's right")

Fe types will often say things like "I was raised to believe...." or "it's difficult reprogramming what my parents taught me was right" ([MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] and I have talked about this at length). for strong Fi users on the other hand, values are just "there" and we're often left thinking "your parents created your values for you? ". for me, even as early as 5, I had my own ideas of right and wrong and, apart from a short period of time in which I tried to change them and failed miserably, they really have not changed much. I can honestly say that my values would be the same if I grew up in the slums of India, on the Communist Block, in an African tribe or in the courts of the Victorian aristocracy.

I don't find this true for me...rather than thinking that the values I grew up with are true and those of others false (or different depending on where you grew up) I instead tend to think that all those values are equally valid and are in essence the same.

The ones I choose to employ depend on context.

 

[The Great One]

great observation!
so basically you're saying Fe is deductive morality and Fi is inductive morality? makes sense. similarly, I think Fe morality tends to come much more for the superego while Fi morality is more visceral (Fe often seems to have a bias of "it worked in the past, therefore it's right")

Fe types will often say things like "I was raised to believe...." or "it's difficult reprogramming what my parents taught me was right" ([MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] and I have talked about this at length). for strong Fi users on the other hand, values are just "there" and we're often left thinking "your parents created your values for you? ". for me, even as early as 5, I had my own ideas of right and wrong and, apart from a short period of time in which I tried to change them and failed miserably, they really have not changed much. I can honestly say that my values would be the same if I grew up in the slums of India, on the Communist Block, in an African tribe or in the courts of the Victorian aristocracy.

I don't find this true for me...rather than thinking that the values I grew up with are true and those of others false (or different depending on where you grew up) I instead tend to think that all those values are equally valid.

The ones I choose to employ depend on context.

What type are you?

 

[xisnotx]

Lol thats the thing, I'm supposed to use Fe but it is my weakest primary function. But I'm even worse with Fi...

Which makes these sort of questions very interesting.

 

[The Great One]

Lol thats the thing, I'm supposed to use Fe but it is my weakest primary function. But I'm even worse with Fi...

Which makes these sort of questions very interesting.

Maybe you're in a loop.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]
ENFP Fi>Ne>Te>Si
7w6(8w7)>1w?>3w4(4w5) Sp/Sx
EIE-Ni
Choleric-Phlegmatic

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]
- so it sounds like you're saying Fe takes a results oriented approach to morality? interesting. I can't imagine viewing morality as anything but an ends in and of itself.
- another thing I find difficult to grasp is how it is Fe users seem to be able to attach their emotions to things that will likely change in 3-6 months, like being adamant about doing something and attaching a moral stimulus to it that didn't even exist until less than 100 years ago.
- perhaps trifix has something to do with it too. I have a heavy 1 fix, while you seem like a 9w1 fixer (probably 6w7>9w1>3w4 or 4w3). 1s are much more vindictive than 9s, and 1 fixers do not share the go with the flow approach to life that 9 fixers prefer.
- 3 would likely reinforce Fe rather than balance it. both Fe and E3 are inter-personally adaptable and tend to have an agenda socially. types that would likely balance Fe would be 1, 4, 7 or 8 (I have trouble picturing an FJ 8 actually lol)

 

[The Outsider]

In the end we can all rejoice that MBTI is not taken into account in any rational ethical discussion.

 

[The Outsider]

great observation!
so basically you're saying Fe is deductive morality and Fi is inductive morality?

What?
If anything, the way (s)he described it, it's the other way around; and even then it's stretching it.

 

[SubtleFighter]

Some things that comes to mind - how do you experience your feeling? How do you experience your thinking? When the you within yourself and the you outside of yourself communicate with one another, how does the interaction go?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

(Fe often seems to have a bias of "it worked in the past, therefore it's right")

Fe types will often say things like "I was raised to believe...."

I think you're confusing Fe with Si.

 

[SubtleFighter]

[whoops, double post!]

 

[Elfboy]

I think you're confusing Fe with Si.

Fe does this too, Fe is better at adjusting to changing social norms and customs, but it still takes time to adjust.

 

[The Great One]

The Great One
ENFP Fi>Ne>Te>Si
7w6(8w7)>1w?>3w4(4w5) Sp/Sx
EIE-Ni
Choleric-Phlegmatic

What was the point of this post?

 

[Elfboy]

What was the point of this post?

you asked me what my type was. so I told you

 

[The Great One]

you asked me what my type was. so I told you

When did I ask that? Why would I ask that? I know clearly what your type is. It's listed in your siggie, and I chat with you over the phone all the time.

 

[SubtleFighter]

Fe does this too, Fe is better at adjusting to changing social norms and customs, but it still takes time to adjust.

I will agree that since Fe reaches outward toward noticing the social dynamics of people they talk to, the community they’re in, and the society they’re in, that Fe-users have an awareness of social norms and how to play the game. But what you’re saying still sounds more like Fe+Si. Having Fe doesn’t inherently mean that people want social norms not to change or that “what works in the past will work now.” Do you at least acknowledge that Fe-users don’t blindly follow social norms? Of course some do, but it is not inherently a part of being an Fe-user to do so.

Also, Fe is not all about an awareness of social norms. Part of it is simply being in the moment with the person or group you’re talking to. Since it reaches out to notice the social dynamics of the conversation that’s happening right now, it is fluid and fluxuates to accommodate the emotions of the people around you. And in that case, Fe changes on a dime.

 

[Elfboy]

I will agree that since Fe reaches outward toward noticing the social dynamics of people they talk to, the community they’re in, and the society they’re in, that Fe-users have an awareness of social norms and how to play the game. But what you’re saying still sounds more like Fe+Si. Having Fe doesn’t inherently mean that people want social norms not to change or that “what works in the past will work now.” Do you at least acknowledge that Fe-users don’t blindly follow social norms? Of course some do, but it is not inherently a part of being an Fe-user to do so.

Also, Fe is not all about an awareness of social norms. Part of it is simply being in the moment with the person or group you’re talking to. Since it reaches out to notice the social dynamics of the conversation that’s happening right now, it is fluid and fluxuates to accommodate the emotions of the people around you. And in that case, Fe changes on a dime.

fair enough.