• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NF] Misery of Idealism? Hypersensitivity to Sin

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.
Last week, I did something bad, but it was an accident, and it wasn't meant to hurt anyone, and the people involved knew it. Well, I felt miserable and humbled for days. I felt like I wasn't worthy to be alive. I felt like the world would be better off without me.
In the same way, when I meet aggressive or manipulative people, my stomach and heart turn upside down and I feel miserable. I've read many times that NFs were like sponges, they would just absorb everything emotional in the flow of life. The same way we can be profoundly happy and exalted in a way few types possibly can, we are intolerant to evil to a point where living in this sinful world feels like inhabiting a huge sewer. I even feel guilty about someone else's sin, sometimes.

At the same time, being a Christian, I believe God wants people to be aware of how ugly evil is so we will repent and aspire to sanctification.
Loving and caring the way NFs do will hurt, but as C. S. Lewis says: "Hell is the only place outside of Heaven where we can be safe from the dangers of love." (The Four loves)

I love this quote from Julie Ackerman Link's booklet Loving God with all my heart: "When we choose to feel the full range of our emotions -even sadness- we come to a fuller understanding of the God who created us in His image -the God who feels."

What do you think ?
 

WobblyStilettos

New member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
331
MBTI Type
INFP
I agree completely! I tend to find I am more affected by various emotions floating around than the people around me seem to be. Sometimes something might happen that just shocks me and makes me feel sick but other's just brush it off and don't really think it's a big deal. I think the reason us NFs can be so incredibly happy is because we know what it is to be incredibly sad, I heard a great quote once... -goes to find it-... I failed :( but it was something along the lines of "the deeper sadness hollows out your heart, the more happiness you can hold" or words to that effect xD
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I have a similar feeling, but it's more due to the inconsistency people exhibiting between their professed beliefs (what they know/believe is right) versus what they actually do or say.

I remember flagellating myself in my teens, because of how flawed and inconsistent I was... I would even punish myself, when no one else even knew something was wrong. And I would also judge others in authority, even if I never told them; I was very harsh (inwardly). And would sometimes drop into deep depression over it... because people in charge or even occasionally someone I admired had failed me.

I can understand the "sewer" analogy, I just don't have the same sense of personal revulsion now. I fully accept that we are all flawed... and sometimes very very ugly. But often it's because we can't do better at the time.

IOW, the black is part of an overarching narrative of each individual life as well as the culture and even world. What matters is the context of the darkness -- is it a necessary part of someone's journey towards the light, or is it leading even further into the mire without possibility of redemption? The latter is what depresses me; I find I can accept a lot if the person is moving FORWARD ultimately. Heart and motivation is everything to me. Maybe that is a more deterministic stance in some ways, but I don't mean to "minimize" evil... evil is BAD and painful. But if it's unavoidable, and if it's part of a journey towards light... then I can't focus on it as the priority, as something alive in itself.

It sounds to me like NF more typically personalizes the darkness and has a visceral reaction to it. Do you think that is true?
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I absolutely MUST avoid certain situations because the shock of how appalling people can be to each other will make me physically ill, sometimes for days on end. You know that man they just busted in Austria for holding his daughter hostage in a basement for 20 years and fathering 6 children by her?? I could NOT walk that off, it made me so mad and so grieved for that woman. It literally RUINED my mood for the rest of the day. How hideous fiends like that can live and not be struck dead is just beyond me. I felt the ruination of the woman's life very deeply because it seems the highest level of violation to totally rob someone of their independence and waste their time on earth by imposing your will on them without possibility of escape. I wanted to fly to Austria and kick that horrible man until he fell down.

I have no choice about being affected by something, so I have to control my exposure.

And yes, I used to flog myself pretty hard when I messed up, in any capacity. It was all out of proportion to the crime usually, but I felt as if I, among all people, should always be able to control myself or act right or never entertain - much less act on- a less than noble urge. If I did something accidentally, I beat myself even harder, as if I had the power to stop what happened when I clearly didn't. I think that may be endemic with NFs.
 

kelric

Feline Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
2,169
MBTI Type
INtP
It sounds to me like NF more typically personalizes the darkness and has a visceral reaction to it. Do you think that is true?

I have no choice about being affected by something, so I have to control my exposure.

And yes, I used to flog myself pretty hard when I messed up, in any capacity. It was all out of proportion to the crime usually, but I felt as if I, among all people, should always be able to control myself or act right or never entertain - much less act on- a less than noble urge. If I did something accidentally, I beat myself even harder, as if I had the power to stop what happened when I clearly didn't. I think that may be endemic with NFs.

Hard to state it any better than Jennifer and Pink did. Negative emotionally charged situations bring a big dark cloud over me, and I have two options... a) fix it and make things better or b) escape. a) is always preferable, but when it's just not possible, it comes down to controlling exposure, as Pink puts it. And still, it's likely to keep me upset and edgy for the rest of the day (occasionally longer).
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Over the years, I've developed some defense mechanisms that allow me to survive my own mind. I still have to guard myself to some degree, though. I rarely watch TV news for that reason. I don't know if this is the best thing, but I need to survive and my family needs me to survive, so it just has to do, even if it's not the ideal spiritually and developmentally.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
I find I can accept a lot if the person is moving FORWARD ultimately.

It sounds to me like NF more typically personalizes the darkness and has a visceral reaction to it. Do you think that is true?

For me, it is definitely a motivation to move forward. I would even feel more miserable if I wasn't doing anything. I feel the worst when I can't do anything. When I do the best I can, I feel some kind of relief.

I agree with the idea that I personalize the darkness (I speak for myself), and this is because NFs care about people so much. I believe in Satan and demons, and ultimately God and Heaven, and godly Judgment. Otherwise, I'd go mad, I suppose. Things would make no sense.
This week I read a post where the NF claimed he couldn't go to sleep easily, and many NFs replied it was the same for them.
I have a remedy: prayer. To me, prayer allows me to do something, even when I can't in the physical world. I pray when I get up and when I go to bed, and that allows me to cast my cares upon Jesus. He told us to... The Almighty can do what we can't do, and he is our best ally. I have had a lot of good experiences with wonderful answers to prayer, so it keeps me hoping.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
I'm not really bothered when I encounter things that most people would consider "evil" anymore. Of course, I've been exposed to a lot, so I guess I could be considered jaded.

I was shaken about a year ago to the very core by something a friend of mine admitted to doing. For three days I was vomiting and crying because I was so torn about how to deal with it. Eventually I had to make one of the hardest choices of my life and I turned him into the police.

I'm often upset by Nancy Grace, but that is more of an unbridled rage at her lack of ethics and disgusting disregard for the feelings of victims and their families.

I also imagine aspects of myself being "demonic" but not in the religious sense.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Shit happens. I'm sorry if you think bad things shouldn't happen to good people (I don't wish it on anybody) but it does anyways. It's more important to think about what you can do to correct things and prevent it from happening again than brooding over how "there's evil in the world". Just my thoughts.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I don't get what's up with this Christian stuff, but whatever lets you sleep at night.

I'm going to have to go with nighting. It may sound callous, but it's true. Shit happens, bad things happen to good people, etc. You've got to focus on concentrating your efforts and doing what you can, in the process being very discriminate in who you decide to help. Certain people are going to get helped, certain people aren't, but it really doesn't pay to do such things by half-measures.

Umm, yeah. Do the best you can. Keep fighting, idealists. If you organize your ranks, you may just save the world one day, like you've always been meaning to...
 

cheap

New member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
41
MBTI Type
F00D
I even feel guilty about someone else's sin, sometimes.

Wow, I feel this way too. It's like I feel the guilt they would (or should) be feeling whenever they do something "evil." Recently I replied in a forum thread where the guy had cheated on this girl because their relationship was rocky. I told him that it was a positive thing that he was feeling awful as that will motivate him to change, "use your guilt constructively," which is a simple and positive way I view Christianity too when people groan about the whole Jesus guilt trip. Anyway, the guy thought I was being too "soft" because he "deserved more abuse" for what he'd done...

This view has led me to value mercy over justice in everyday life. I can't stand it when people feel the need to seek revenge. I always presume, indicative of my own tendencies, that whenever people sin, their remorse will be so overwhelming that it'd be unfair to come down *too* hard on them. I don't think "learning the hard way" is always necessarily through experiencing vengeance happening to you, although it may be in most cases, especiallt if you aren't an NF.

I have an extremely critical older sister and now I realise why I get so angry whenever she gives me a lecture on inadequacy; I cop it enough from myself and learn life lessons from my own guilt.
 

Mort Belfry

Rats off to ya!
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
INTP
I luuuuuurve evil.

Especially the evil inside me, it's baking like a warm cake. The conventional idea of evil has always excited me and I try to research it as much as I can in real life cases in a crass attempt to quantify it.
 

Butterfly

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
201
MBTI Type
ENFP
Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.

What do you think ?

True, I agree with you. Even when I read a sad fictional book, it makes me sad for days! I remember this happening to me for 5 days, I was completely shattered. It does affect my mood and happiness.
This morning's newspaper had a similar story of some ppl being beaten to death by the crowd (mob justice etc). I was soooo sad. Thats why I avoid reading newspapers, because it makes me depressed.

I luuuuuurve evil.

Especially the evil inside me, it's baking like a warm cake. The conventional idea of evil has always excited me and I try to research it as much as I can in real life cases in a crass attempt to quantify it.

Oh no!! Now i cant sleep for days :huh:
lol kidding.
But seriously, what is it about evil that intrigues you??
 

arcticangel02

To the top of the world
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
892
MBTI Type
eNFP
I don't know... for me, I think, if there's a personal connection there, it affects me pretty strongly. Something as minimal as an occasional sad advertisement can bring tears to my eyes, and books and songs (oh, and of course, movies) have been known to make me cry outright, but for something like the morning paper, well, it's impersonal enough that I naturally skim over the top and don't get emotionally invested.

I am, however, pretty damn sensitive to people around me - my thoughts sometimes chase themselves around in circles for hours in regret over one tiny little action of mine which may have caused someone else to feel awkward or hurt or something. I feel miserable when I admit to myself that some people genuinely irritate me. :)ninja:)

Oh, and this one time when a close friend of mine was the target of a major smear campaign (and it had nothing to do with me at all), not only did I burst into tears when my dad asked me how my day was, but the next day I missed school entirely because I simply wouldn't get out of bed, I was that miserable.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
This view has led me to value mercy over justice in everyday life. I can't stand it when people feel the need to seek revenge. I always presume, indicative of my own tendencies, that whenever people sin, their remorse will be so overwhelming that it'd be unfair to come down *too* hard on them. I don't think "learning the hard way" is always necessarily through experiencing vengeance happening to you, although it may be in most cases, especiallt if you aren't an NF.

There's a difference between justice and vengeance. Justice is an attempt to set things right so that it'll never happen again. Vengeance is emotionally driven and just to seek closure for harms. They can sometimes look similar but they are not the same. For many people, a simple slap on the wrist does nothing.

There's a difference in being too hard on somebody and simply letting them go free. Draconian prisons didn't work because the people who stayed there were more criminal when they left than when they entered. That would be considered too harsh, but just because that doesn't work doesn't mean we should give up trying to deal justice. If people don't understand how their actions are hurting others, there needs to be an artificial system in place. This is why we have 'justice.' Not for revenge, but to prevent further transgressions.
 

aeon

Potoumchka
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
339
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
947
Instinctual Variant
sx
Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.

I'm not.

Those things I consider wrong or evil are so only because I judge them so. Wrong and evil, as external moral judgements, are projections of my values onto things - they are not inherent qualities of the things deemed wrong or evil. As such, I prefer to not judge, and choose to accept instead.

In so choosing, I find I experience a full range of emotions as things come and go in my awareness, but because I do not choose to take on the burden of judgement, I find I have the resources to witness my emotional experience without becoming overwhelmed or paralyzed.

I don't find it productive to think of my own person as good or evil, or a mix of those things. I prefer a more integral, and loving, self-image.

That said, that's an idealization. There are those times when I am limbically aroused and I am not mindful or gentle with myself. Instead I am quite judging of my person, and seek a punitive expression. This happens less and less as my knowledge and acceptance of self grows.

The ideas of Dr. Marshall Rosenberg as expressed in his books on non-violent communication have had a profound impact on my relationships and the way I experience the world. Letting go of ideas like "wrong" and "evil," applied as moral judgement, has been a big part of that.


cheers,
Ian
 

Mort Belfry

Rats off to ya!
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
INTP
Oh no!! Now i cant sleep for days :huh:
lol kidding.
But seriously, what is it about evil that intrigues you??

I have no idea. I suppose the old addage is correct: evil is sexy. At the same time I don't believe any intrinsic form of evil actually exists.
 
R

RDF

Guest
Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.
Last week, I did something bad, but it was an accident, and it wasn't meant to hurt anyone, and the people involved knew it. Well, I felt miserable and humbled for days. I felt like I wasn't worthy to be alive. I felt like the world would be better off without me.
In the same way, when I meet aggressive or manipulative people, my stomach and heart turn upside down and I feel miserable. I've read many times that NFs were like sponges, they would just absorb everything emotional in the flow of life. The same way we can be profoundly happy and exalted in a way few types possibly can, we are intolerant to evil to a point where living in this sinful world feels like inhabiting a huge sewer. I even feel guilty about someone else's sin, sometimes. [...]

There was a time in my youth when I was super-sensitive to things: The bad moods of people around me, catastrophes in the news, missteps on my own part, etc. But as I've gotten older, I've learned to examine these things with a more critical eye.

Evil in the world around me:

When times are good, people tend to be generous and forgiving; when times are difficult, people get more selfish and are more prone to look out for their own interest and screw the other guy.

So like Mort Belfry, I tend to study evil; I try to see what combination of events and suppositions caused otherwise-decent people to get caught up in mean acts (either historically, or in the immediate environment around me).

I think it wrongly objectifies and dismisses the actions of others to describe them as "sin" or "evil" in the purely religious sense, as though once certain people or their actions cross a threshold I don't have to worry about them anymore; I just condemn them, confront them, or kill them.

Instead, I tend to see things in a more psychological sense, as being on a continuum running from lawful/healthy at one end to illegal/unhealthy at the other. In that sense, things are more understandable and maybe even treatable/fixable, if it falls under my purview to do that. As the Roman playwright Lucretius said, "I am human; nothing human is alien to me."

Evil in myself:

The same principles apply in myself. Rather than simply amputate parts of myself that I don't like, I would rather take Aeon's approach and study myself. I look at the patterns that show up in my life, study my motivations, and try to develop new patterns or responses to events as needed.

Just one example, using my INFP wife as the subject (to keep the example more impersonal):

My wife is an INFP like me. She belongs to a couple art clubs, and at one club in particular she is a junior member on the board in charge of the club. She sees the petty rip-offs that senior board members perpetrate on the membership, and she feels compelled to play kind of a gadfly role on the board. Worse yet, other members push her to expose these and other rip-offs but won't actually go public themselves. So my wife increasingly feels herself caught in the middle between an irritable membership and an uncaring board, becoming increasingly caught up in conflict, isolated, and burning her bridges with people she once cared about and respected.

It's a typical INFP predicament and a reason why INFPs are known to flit from one cause to the next; we join a cause, become disillusioned with the "human element," get caught up in conflict, and eventually have to quit and move on. I've done it myself.

But with a better understanding of MBTI, I think it's possible to get out of that bind and have more choices. Fi (Introverted Feeling) makes INFPs judgmental and hypersensitive to certain kinds of rip-offs. With respect to the board, my wife can choose to realize that the other board members don't have Fi like her and don't necessarily see a big problem with breaking the letter of the law as long as the spirit of the law is maintained. So my wife could fine-tune her own filter a bit and continue to play her gadfly role but learn to back off before arriving at the point where she burns all her bridges, by keeping in mind that the rest of the board mean well; they just don't have the same sensitivity to the issues as her.

Similarly, my wife needn't feel pushed into conflict by the membership. It may be that they recognize and respect her Fi and use her as a sounding board for testing whether issues are worth confronting and fighting; but it doesn't necessarily mean that my wife has to be the one to fight them. As issues arise, my wife could choose to play other roles, such as an counselor or arbiter. She isn't bound or required to play only the one role of gadfly and champion of the oppressed.

That's just one limited and rather prosaic example of a personal problem (albeit one that's common to INFPs). But the same kind of thinking can apply to other patterns and impulses that trap us on the personal level. Study the dynamic that's occurring, and look for ways to broaden our response and generate new choices. To me, that's healthier than just calling something "evil" or "sinful" and trying to lop it off so that it doesn't trouble us anymore.

********

That's probably TMI, in the sense of a long-winded answer to a simple question. But that's how I approach things these days. Instead of slapping a label on things, I try to investigate the dynamic and see events and people as just one more variation of "the human experience."
 

Angry Ayrab

New member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
600
MBTI Type
ENFP
Thank God I heard you guys talking about this, I really thought I was starting to lose it. I have always been crippled by my own sins, and then even more crippled by my indifference to sins I have committed for a while. I feel like I am always guilty, but I am going to relate a story to you that really sheds light on how sensitive to this I am.

I went with a friend to a club once. I have never been to a club before, I have never drank and if I do something stupid like intoxicate myself, it would be alone in secret. Anyway, I went to this club and sat down for a few minutes. 15 minutes into the experience I ran out and just dry heaved for a few minutes and had to leave. Well what led to it is when I was in their, I just felt this whole atmosphere of evil. I walked in, and people were drunk, women were dressed as slutty as possible, men were on the prowl, people were eating, some were dancing, I am pretty sure many were on some crazy drugs. There was smoke everywhere, lights flashing on and off, people making out. To most this would sound normal and fun. What I personally saw was the decay of everything human. The pure giving in to hedonism, and just being animals. People are dying left and right and all you can think of is luring in some stupid girl to use her as your semen recepticle. I was affected by this for a week but I really can't step near any place so associated with hedonism.

The odd thing, is I could have probably out socialized anyone in there, I can pick up any girl I want and I can do all that, but something about this atmosphere kills me. The only time I find myself succumbing to my own blind hedonism is when I have free time on my hands. Idle hands are the devils playground, simple as that.

Rant off, god I wish could explain my internal feelings better. The best I can say was that satan ran that night club.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Is it possible that Fi is better at coping or objectifying "evil" than Fe?
 
Top