[MBTI General] short rant on NFs

[Wild horses]

I do happen to agree with you Jack! everyone knows I am a supporter of ISTJs in general but if I have one negative thing to say about them it would be their absolute loyalty to a point of view or a position, to the point that they try to convert EVERYONE else to it too and if you are not converted you are not simply 'wrong' but it becomes more personal than that and you become less of a person, invalid...

 

[SolitaryWalker]

No thats pure ignorance

Why don't you explain how it works then!?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Have you forgotten already? I suggest you go back to your first post and look, then.

Do you understand my 'initial hypothesis', if so, recapitulate it.

 

[ragashree]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/5594-short-rant-nfs-11.html#post423419

This may help. I was assuming it was meant to be a reasoned hypothesis rather than a statement of opinion. Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect. Unfortunately I have to depart this enjoyable and thoroughly amusing discussion now as my S0 wishes me to go to dinner. And going to dinner with one's partner, bluewing, is not an axiom, but a statement of fact. Just in case you were wondering ;-)

 

[SolitaryWalker]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/5594-short-rant-nfs-11.html#post423419

This may help. I was assuming it was meant to be a reasoned hypothesis rather than a statement of opinion. Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect. Unfortunately I have to depart this enjoyable and thoroughly amusing discussion now as my S0 wishes me to go to dinner. And going to dinner with one's partner, bluewing, is not an axiom, but a statement of fact. Just in case you were wondering ;-)

You have cited the entire thread, not one particular statement.

 

[Lady_X]

I do happen to agree with you Jack! everyone knows I am a supporter of ISTJs in general but if I have one negative thing to say about them it would be their absolute loyalty to a point of view or a position, to the point that they try to convert EVERYONE else to it too and if you are not converted you are not simply 'wrong' but it becomes more personal than that and you become less of a person, invalid...

wow...really.

 

[Wild horses]

Hang on there Wild horses... They are dragging me into making a sweeping statement about a type that I love.. what I meant to say was that I have expereinced this type of behaviour with a few ISTJs that I have come across *wiping the sweat for her brow*

 

[BlueScreen]

It wasn't about feelings Blue. Nice to see you do react eventually. It's about being openminded to another perspective, both on the issue and the way people express themselves. Not everyone writes in your style. Just because you have more trouble reading 'their' style, doesn't mean they should conform to you, nor that their points are invalid. I do enjoy your essays, but because of the difference in style, they require me to read them several times to get what you're getting at, just as rags' posts are difficult to you.

I read them pretty clearly first time. His arguments are well structured. He has a bit of a blind spot as far as recognising when the scope of his understanding is too limited to claim certain things, but the majority of his responses are quite sound and valid. I agree with you that it would be nice if he had the adaptability to read our responses. But NFJs rarely state any logical reasoning behind their outputs, and NFPs rarely structure their outputs clearly enough for those who don't read our language. I know we can clearly read eachother's posts because we state the information an ENFP needs to see the picture. But most types work a little further from entropy. It needs to be fleshed out with more information to make it clear. And the links that seem to be obviously inferred to us, are not so obvious to others.

Personally I think we are wrong on the cold thinking part. Cognitive normally refers to methods of acquiring knowledge and understanding. Ts are not emotionless, they just use emotion less in their processing of ideas. We use thinking (logical function) less in our processing of ideas. Which probably makes us less logical and rational, but doesn't mean we come up with the wrong answers. That is an unjustified assumption based on limited understanding. A real world test is enough to disprove it. At work in the last two weeks I derived the last year's worth of work output from the T types without prior knowledge of the work. I came up with exactly the same assumptions, flaws, workings of the system because I could see it. eg. You could logically analyse a tree your whole life, but if I put a complete picture of everything to do with that object in front of you with how every aspect linked and the consequences of each of those links on everything in its surrounding environment, and how it basically fitted into the universe, then your logic would be some playing around in the dark. Like feeding the computer some numbers for a simulation and letting it give an output. Difference is almost all my simulations match real world output when later compared. Whereas most of the thinker's ones look sound and solid, and keep people happy.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

A world without feeling is not possible, because feeling is the cognitive faculty that inhibits or excites our impulses to act. If this did not exist, we simply would be devoid of all motivations to act. For instance, if a mathematician lacked feeling altogether he would have no reason to prefer a plausible proof to an implausible one. Normally he gets a positive sentiment when he sees a plausible idea and a negative sentiment when he sees an implausible idea.

I would prefer a world however where there were no Feelers, this would be the world where everyone uses Feeling in a controlled fashion, not volatile. People would be acting on whim a lot less than they do today, as they would be less likely to be satisfied with believing in something just because it feels right or doing something only because they feel like it, as primacy of Thinking over Feeling insists on some rational basis to ground the decision in.

That is well put. If I could make a choice about it, I would probably prefer such a world, although I'm not certain it would exclude all Feelers. Since such a world is not the case, there is something to be said for finding a reasonable way to accept it and negotiate one's way around whatever happens to exist. I still come down to the reasoning that we are all limited by our experience and genetics. I could be the mistaken person or the recklessly hurtful one depending on how I happened to be put together. An assumption of core equality can resolve some of the inherent conflicts and misunderstandings of this simply, at least in certain cases. Thoughts?

 

[Jack Flak]

That is well put.

No it isn't. It's the same thing as openly wishing water is wine. It's probably not going to get you anywhere.

Excellence lies in truthful analysis, not in stating which mindset is better than another.

 

[bronte]

How does it work?
Do you mean how do I make decisions based on feeling? I don't totally though it seems that you think we do - I try to look for balance.

I will try to explain and all I ask Bluewing is that you suspend your disbelief for 5 mins
I've really enjoyed your posts before and respect your obvious intelligence

For example at work where at times I'm involved in helping people with problems they have and working with them to put togther plans to move forward - I will have a gut feeling about how the person is feeling about this situation which will direct some of the questions I ask and how I empathise with the person - this is assisted I believe by intuition which I think gives me some distance and objectivity and helps me to apply previous learning. I think carefully about the persons situation and apply systems which help me assess and plan with them.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

That is well put. If I could make a choice about it, I would probably prefer such a world, although I'm not certain it would exclude all Feelers. Since such a world is not the case, there is something to be said for finding a reasonable way to accept it and negotiate one's way around whatever happens to exist. I still come down to the reasoning that we are all limited by our experience and genetics. I could be the mistaken person or the recklessly hurtful one depending on how I happened to be put together. An assumption of core equality can resolve some of the inherent conflicts and misunderstandings of this simply, at least in certain cases. Thoughts?

Since such a world is not the case, there is something to be said for finding a reasonable way to accept it and negotiate one's way around whatever happens to exist.?

In such a world, everyone must give Thinking priority over Feeling, or be justified in feeling a certain way only if one sees a logical reason to feel so. For instance, I should only be justified in feeling that my neighbor is a vampire only if I see a reason to believe that he is one, I should not just be able to say I feel that he is a vampire and that is the end of story.

I agree with you that some Feelers would be able to do this, yet, Thinkers have an easier time with this because of their genetics that you mentioned. Or they simply have more natural talents regarding the cultivation of skills necessary in order to reason logically.

Since such a world is not the case, there is something to be said for finding a reasonable way to accept it and negotiate one's way around whatever happens to exist.?

Of course there is a reasonable way to deal with our circumstances, but this way requires competence at logical reasoning. If one is not able to reason logically nothing stops him from believing in or doing just about anything that his whim commands.

 

[Jack Flak]

In such a world....

Yes, let's all talk about BlueWing's T-only fantasy world for the remainder of the evening. Why is anyone falling for this?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

How does it work?
Do you mean how do I make decisions based on feeling? I don't totally though it seems that you think we do - I try to look for balance.

I will try to explain and all I ask Bluewing is that you suspend your disbelief for 5 mins
I've really enjoyed your posts before and respect your obvious intelligence

For example at work where at times I'm involved in helping people with problems they have and working with them to put togther plans to move forward - I will have a gut feeling about how the person is feeling about this situation which will direct some of the questions I ask and how I empathise with the person - this is assisted I believe by intuition which I think gives me some distance and objectivity and helps me to apply previous learning. I think carefully about the persons situation and apply systems which help me assess and plan with them.

In this case you are indeed relying on Intuition, Sensation and Thinking to support your Feeling faculty. For this reason your judgment is not whimsical. However, those who do not adequately rely on Intuition, Sensation and Thinking will be much more arbitrary in their judgment.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yes, let's all talk about BlueWing's T-only fantasy world for the remainder of the evening. Why is anyone falling for this?

Jack, don't you think this thread is over your head?

 

[ragashree]

I agree that I am not responding to much of what you're saying here because first of all I need you to clearly outline my argument, and then clearly outline yours, and lastly show the contradiction between the two and how yours is closer to the truth than mine.

We arent going anywhere until you do that, the discussion is too confusing otherwise.

So have you now decided that the purpose of this thread is to discuss your hypothesis at length and that you do not wish to do so anywhere else? Simply trying to deflect my requests that we do so with non-sequiturs merely makes you look illogical yourself. I would appreciate a straight answer to the above question this time.

 

[Night]

Infanticide, and other non-NF related chatter moved here:

 

[niffer]

All types can be phallic in different ways. TBH I've had the least experience of phallicness coming from NTs, and the most from NFs and SJs. I don't deal with SPs that much I think...so I don't have a say on them lol. From what I've experienced I don't have much to rant on for SPs, except that they can get in the way when things gotta be done quickly and with quality.

 

[Jack Flak]

Infanticide, and other non-NF related chatter moved here:

Yeah, let's not get to the root of the bullshit antagonism, let's hide it away. /sarky

 

[BlueScreen]

All types can be phallic in different ways. TBH I've had the least experience of phallicness coming from NTs, and the most from NFs and SJs. I don't deal with SPs that much I think...so I don't have a say on them lol. From what I've experienced I don't have much to rant on for SPs, except that they can get in the way when things gotta be done quickly and with quality.

Next you'll be calling us a**holes...